. Forum

[A&O]

NYU is leaps and bounds superior to Michigan at placing students at big firms in NYC.

FTFY.

NYU is definitely better, but "leaps and bounds" is some pretty ridiculous hyperbole.

A random sample of the distribution of NYU students (I would say NYU AND Michigan, but there were no Michigan students there) at some top NYC firms for last summer:

Debevoise
Yale - 8
Harvard - 8
Stanford - 2
Columbia - 4
Chicago - 5
NYU - 8
Virginia - 2
Penn - 3
Gtown - 2
UCLA - 1
Fordham - 3
Brooklyn - 3
Rutgers-Newark - 2
St. John's - 2
Howard - 3
W&L - 1

Davis Polk
NYU 16
Columbia 13
Harvard 10
Yale 10
Stanford 7
UVA 5
Cornell 4
Northwestern 4
Fordham 3
GULC 3
Chicago 2
Penn 2
Berkeley 1
Howard 1
Minnesota 1

WLRK
Yale: 4
Harvard: 4
NYU:3
Columbia 2
Chicago: 1
UPenn: 1
Unknown: 5 (I do know that none of these 5 is from CLS.)
One of the CLSers is a 1L.

--LinkRemoved--

And my information on firms like Paul Weiss, S&C, Simpson, Cleary, and Skadden shows NYU similarly blowing Michigan out of the water. I'd post that, but since it's not public like it is on xo, I'd rather not.

[A&O]

Ah what the hell. Looking at some numbers I have, I see that there were 3 students from Michigan in the V5 last summer. 11 in the V10.

NYU had more students at Davis Polk than Michigan had in the V10. Think about that for a second. If that's not "leaps and bounds," I don't know what is.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Ah what the hell. Looking at some numbers I have, I see that there were 3 students from Michigan in the V5 last summer. 11 in the V10.

NYU had more students at Davis Polk than Michigan had in the V10. Think about that for a second. If that's not "leaps and bounds," I don't know what is.

This has been pretty frequently discussed - Michigan's NYC placement last year was terrible largely as a result of OCS making the unknowing mistake of stressing to rising 2Ls that NYC was the market to avoid. The school's OCI placement suffered more than it needed to as a result, since many students bid primarily on markets like DC/Chicago/secondaries in an attempt to avoid NYC. Of course, many of those were the markets hit the hardest (and our DC firm placement last year was actually fairly close to our NYC firm placement - you and I both know that an increase in our D.C. placement even in such a terrible hiring climate is far from insignificant). I'm not going to disagree that our NYC placement last year was pitiful. However, Michigan's numbers this year should be significantly better now that students aren't afraid of aiming for NYC.

Also, not that this is really a legitimate argument in light of c/o 2011's unfortunate OCI-market decisions, but I do want to point out that comparing pure numbers of roughly 315 students aiming for NYC from NYU to roughly 100 students aiming for NYC (in most years, probably fewer last year) from Michigan seems a little silly.



Edit: In sum, I am not trying to say that last year wasn't terrible for Michigan's NYC placement. However, it historically hasn't lagged behind NYU by near as much, and there were compounding factors that I think contributed to this poor placement much more significantly than your data's simple suggestion that UMN and W&L are now >> Michigan. Nevertheless, I am positive that Michigan's NYC placement will be substantially better this year because students had a much better idea of where to bid.

[A&O]

I'm slowly accumulating information on demographics for top firms this summer, and the numbers are similarly bad for Michigan. Ostensibly, to the extent Michigan is experiencing any uptick, it's because V10 class sizes are increasing. Also, I'd wager serious cash that, even if Michigan had more students targeting NYC in 2009, they'd have placed just as poorly.

Self-selection can only make up for so much disparity. With these numbers, Michigan doesn't even seem in the game. Even Boalt seemingly represented more in the V10.

[A&O]

However, it historically hasn't lagged behind NYU by near as much

I can get behind the adverb, "historically," but what's relevant is what's happened recently. Thus...

I am positive that Michigan's NYC placement will be substantially better this year because students had a much better idea of where to bid.

See my post above.

placement much more significantly than your data's simple suggestion that UMN and W&L are now >> Michigan.

This is a bad strawman. I wouldn't dare for a second conclude from the data what W&L is better than Michigan. 1 student from W&L is clearly not enough to show anything. Not even 5 students (Chicago). But 16? Give me a break.

[cornellbeez]

For biglaw, generally, NYU > Michigan > Berkeley.

Fwiw, I think the Davis Polk placement last year was a fluke. Not sure how A&O is "collecting" this data, but I personally know at least 5 Michigan people who are headed to DP this summer. I will not get into specifics, but a lot more Michigan students are headed to DP and other v10s, including Debevoise, too. Overall, I think a lot more people placed into the v10 this year.

[A&O]

Fwiw, I think the Davis Polk placement last year was a fluke.

Really? The year before last, Michigan had only 1 student at Davis Polk. Fluke two years in a row?

Not sure how A&O is "collecting" this data,

The usual way. At this point, you will know people heading to these firms, and it's not hard to collect this information.

I will not get into specifics, but a lot more Michigan students are headed to DP and other v10s, including Debevoise, too. Overall, I think a lot more people placed into the v10 this year.

That's great. But you will find that CLS and NYU are sending many orders of magnitude more to the V10. And don't argue about class size. NYU is only 100 larger, and CLS is roughly the same size.

[A&O]

And even before the economic crisis, NYU has done handily better.

See: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

Now I guess you can argue about what "leaps and bounds" means vs. "not leaps and bounds." But that's a dumb semantic argument, and I guess a lot will depend on your own judgment of what's significant and what isn't. To me, when a school places more than double at a given firm than another, that's leaps and bounds.

But that's just not the end of it. There are plenty of NY firms that just don't even care to recruit at Michigan, and they all have decently sized summer classes. I'm thinking along the lines of WLRK, Covington (NYC), WilmerHale (NYC), Arnold & Porter (NYC).

And don't even think about arguing that the NY-centric Vault ranks schools like Michigan lower, since Michigan grads tend to head to a lot more non-NY firms. This was before the economic crisis, before OCS apparently told students not to target NYC. The desires of students, in flightoftheearl's terms, were a lot more similar to this year's desires in terms of geography, than last year's desires were.

Anyway, at least I've got the "better" concession out of all of you. I guess I might have wounded egos in saying "leaps and bounds." If you're really looking to relish in school pride, look at Chicago, where I think Michigan has stronger placement (or should, at least--I've been shocked at some other things) than NYU. K&E in Chicago didn't recruit at NYU last year, and did this year, but not at CLS. Again, I think this materializes in an advantage for Michigan. Then again, it seems a little embarrassing that a school Michigan holds itself to be superior to, Northwestern, seems to be handily outnumbering them at Chicago firms too, but that's another discussion for another day I guess.

Edit: Finally, blaming the misfortunes of 2Ls in 2009 on OCS doesn't really sell Michigan all that well in the grand scheme of things. There is plenty of irony in blaming Michigan for students' job problems in a thread in which you're supposed to be selling the school.

[reversejinx]

.

[A&O]

I'm just a 3L. I know a lot of 3Ls who summered at the above firms. I know a lot of 2Ls who will be summering at the above firms. They all know I'm a geek about this stuff. They send me what they get.

No one is disputing that NYU does better in NYC than Michigan. FlightoftheEarls called my use of "leaps and bounds" hyperbolic, even though I think the data bear this out. Obviously, since "leaps and bounds" is more of a subjective concept, I've abandoned hope of reaching agreement with him on this.

but does it do better in Chicago, in California, in the V25, or in the branches of V10 firms in other states?

I don't know this. My intuition tells me that Michigan should do better in Chicago, but I don't have enough information on the demographics of Chicago firms to make even a rough conclusion. I have no idea whatsoever about CA, etc.

OCS blunder isn't exactly making Michigan sound very attractive.

To be fair to Michigan, OCS at most schools aren't the most helpful people. An awful lot of them hid behind their desks as the slaughter of 2009 OCI went down. I just don't think you're selling your school when you're willing to throw one of their offices under the bus, an office that presumably could have helped out law students during one of their most crucial times in their lives.

I have a lot of friends who ended up jobless. They are competent, intelligent, and social people. It's one thing for OCS to be ignorant, but it's another for them to advice people to do things directly harmful to their career prospects (if what FotE is saying about Michigan's OCS steering people to Chicago is true).

[sgtgrumbles]

To derail again from the BigLaw derail, what do you all think of $54k from Michigan vs. sticker (presumably) at NYU for BigPI (large national civil liberties orgs, specifically) ? Not a hypothetical for me.

Thanks

[clintonius]

How's Michigan's LRAP? I've heard not-so-nice things, but that was a couple years ago and it's possible they've amped things up since then. NYU's is great.

[sgtgrumbles]

How's Michigan's LRAP? I've heard not-so-nice things, but that was a couple years ago and it's possible they've amped things up since then. NYU's is great.

I plan to ask many questions about Michigan's LRAP during the ASW.

I used some crude figures and estimated NYU would cost $200k (sticker + living expenses) and Michigan $120k ($54k off sticker + living expenses). So it's 40% cheaper to go to Michigan. Is that enough to justify passing up the (obviously incredible) public interest resources and superior LRAP of NYU?

[09042014]

ITT Michigan gets pwnd.

[reversejinx]

.

[reversejinx]

.

[09042014]

ITT Michigan gets pwnd.

Yet it has over 50% of the votes.

I'd probably take Mich in this case too. But still it got pwnd.

[BruceWayne]

To derail again from the BigLaw derail, what do you all think of $54k from Michigan vs. sticker (presumably) at NYU for BigPI (large national civil liberties orgs, specifically) ? Not a hypothetical for me.

Thanks

If the PI orgs you are interested in working for aren't in NYC I'd take Michigan 54K in a heartbeat.

[sgtgrumbles]

To derail again from the BigLaw derail, what do you all think of $54k from Michigan vs. sticker (presumably) at NYU for BigPI (large national civil liberties orgs, specifically) ? Not a hypothetical for me.

I say, no. And that's coming from someone who thinks very highly of Michigan. In the long run, the money you put up for the three years to attend a top ten law school should pale in comparison to the money/accomplishments you make/achieve. And if you know you want to go into PI and have NYU's reputation and LRAP to back you up, I think you have to go with the better school.

If the PI orgs you are interested in working for aren't in NYC I'd take Michigan 54K in a heartbeat.

So I have two contrasting opinions here. Anyone else want to weigh in? (Bruce, the organizations are mostly located in NYC, though of course my preferences may change - though I am only interested in PI, so that's a constant.)

[forward]

To derail again from the BigLaw derail, what do you all think of $54k from Michigan vs. sticker (presumably) at NYU for BigPI (large national civil liberties orgs, specifically) ? Not a hypothetical for me.

I say, no. And that's coming from someone who thinks very highly of Michigan. In the long run, the money you put up for the three years to attend a top ten law school should pale in comparison to the money/accomplishments you make/achieve. And if you know you want to go into PI and have NYU's reputation and LRAP to back you up, I think you have to go with the better school.

If the PI orgs you are interested in working for aren't in NYC I'd take Michigan 54K in a heartbeat.

So I have two contrasting opinions here. Anyone else want to weigh in? (Bruce, the organizations are mostly located in NYC, though of course my preferences may change - though I am only interested in PI, so that's a constant.)

I'm leaning PI, and also have the same decision - 45 @ Michigan (though I'll push them for more) vs NYU sticker (presumably. Still hoping...).

I'll go NYU over Mich. 45 isn't enough to pull me to Ann Arbor, period, especially with NYU's LRAP. Plus, doing a few years of Big Law to pay down debt isn't out of the question, and NYU's a better in should I go that route.

I think Michigan vastly overestimates the allure of 45k to applicants who get into T6s. It's nice, but not nice enough. At least, this is the case for me. Disclosure: I'm somewhat anti-Mich because I hate that it decides $ on LSAT alone.

[BruceWayne]

To derail again from the BigLaw derail, what do you all think of $54k from Michigan vs. sticker (presumably) at NYU for BigPI (large national civil liberties orgs, specifically) ? Not a hypothetical for me.

I say, no. And that's coming from someone who thinks very highly of Michigan. In the long run, the money you put up for the three years to attend a top ten law school should pale in comparison to the money/accomplishments you make/achieve. And if you know you want to go into PI and have NYU's reputation and LRAP to back you up, I think you have to go with the better school.

If the PI orgs you are interested in working for aren't in NYC I'd take Michigan 54K in a heartbeat.

So I have two contrasting opinions here. Anyone else want to weigh in? (Bruce, the organizations are mostly located in NYC, though of course my preferences may change - though I am only interested in PI, so that's a constant.)

Since the orgs are in NYC you should choose NYU hands down. Never underestimate the power of networking/being located in the region where you want to work.

I'm leaning PI, and also have the same decision - 45 @ Michigan (though I'll push them for more) vs NYU sticker (presumably. Still hoping...).

I'll go NYU over Mich. 45 isn't enough to pull me to Ann Arbor, period, especially with NYU's LRAP. Plus, doing a few years of Big Law to pay down debt isn't out of the question, and NYU's a better in should I go that route.

I think Michigan vastly overestimates the allure of 45k to applicants who get into T6s. It's nice, but not nice enough. At least, this is the case for me. Disclosure: I'm somewhat anti-Mich because I hate that it decides $ on LSAT alone.

To derail again from the BigLaw derail, what do you all think of $54k from Michigan vs. sticker (presumably) at NYU for BigPI (large national civil liberties orgs, specifically) ? Not a hypothetical for me.

I say, no. And that's coming from someone who thinks very highly of Michigan. In the long run, the money you put up for the three years to attend a top ten law school should pale in comparison to the money/accomplishments you make/achieve. And if you know you want to go into PI and have NYU's reputation and LRAP to back you up, I think you have to go with the better school.

If the PI orgs you are interested in working for aren't in NYC I'd take Michigan 54K in a heartbeat.

So I have two contrasting opinions here. Anyone else want to weigh in? (Bruce, the organizations are mostly located in NYC, though of course my preferences may change - though I am only interested in PI, so that's a constant.)

I'm leaning PI, and also have the same decision - 45 @ Michigan (though I'll push them for more) vs NYU sticker (presumably. Still hoping...).

I'll go NYU over Mich. 45 isn't enough to pull me to Ann Arbor, period, especially with NYU's LRAP. Plus, doing a few years of Big Law to pay down debt isn't out of the question, and NYU's a better in should I go that route.

I think Michigan vastly overestimates the allure of 45k to applicants who get into T6s. It's nice, but not nice enough. At least, this is the case for me. Disclosure: I'm somewhat anti-Mich because I hate that it decides $ on LSAT alone.

No they aren't. You're vastly overestimating the legitimacy of the idea of a "T6". First, there's no way that CCN should be grouped with HYS. The difference between the two sets of schools is greater than any of the other gaps in the TLS created top 14 groupings. Second you need to understand that the idea of CCN being ahead of the other top 14 schools is about their ability to place their students into NYC firms. Other than that their advantage on the "lower" top 14 is minimal (in the case of NYU the advantage is nonexistent). Turning down 45K at Michigan to attend NYU for anything other than working in NYC is basically a total waste of money.

[r6_philly]

I think Michigan is overestimating the lure of 45k to applicants who get 75-90k at Duke and UVa.

[mrmangs]

I think Michigan is overestimating the lure of 45k to applicants who get 75-90k at Duke and UVa.

Yeah, and doesn't Michigan say something like "we don't negotiate" on their financial aid packages? I remembering reading that somewhere when I got my scholly letter from Michigan.

[r6_philly]

I think Michigan is overestimating the lure of 45k to applicants who get 75-90k at Duke and UVa.

Yeah, and doesn't Michigan say something like "we don't negotiate" on their financial aid packages? I remembering reading that somewhere when I got my scholly letter from Michigan.

That's right, and it also doesn't offer need-based grant to people receiving merit scholarships.

[cornellbeez]

I think Michigan is overestimating the lure of 45k to applicants who get 75-90k at Duke and UVa.

Yeah, and doesn't Michigan say something like "we don't negotiate" on their financial aid packages? I remembering reading that somewhere when I got my scholly letter from Michigan.

In practice, it does negotiate financial aid packages.