Berkeley vs. Columbia* Forum

[r6_philly]

OP here. I'm from the LA area, and am not sure exactly where I'd want to practice. I like the Bay Area, but I wouldn't mind being back home closer to family in the LA area.

Haha I guess I will see you at S or B?

[Curry]

Knock. I think you are a personality fit at Boalt. But S is the correct response

[Kronk]

Honestly, last year I was in a similar position. It was NYU or Chicago w/ 75k vs. Berkeley, and I nearly picked Chicago. I got a TLS message from a poster on here that nicely told me that they didn't know anyone upset with their decision to go to Berkeley, but couldn't say the same about Chicago / NYU.

It's true: almost everyone is happy here. We have a girl who dropped out of Stanford last year and reapplied and came to Boalt. Job aspects from Boalt are definitely not as good as at SLS, but making the law school experience enjoyable was worth that dip for her. I tend to agree. Once I visited for ASD here, I withdrew from Chicago and NYU and pulled myself off the HLS and YLS waitlists. I haven't regretted it once.

Wait - you opted out of saving $75,000 in loans and going to an objectively better school because somebody on TLS told you that people don't regret attending Berkeley, but that they regret going to Chicago? That must have been one HELL of a PM.

Nah, it was just an honest PM. Also, it was the right decision.

[Kronk]

Honestly, last year I was in a similar position. It was NYU or Chicago w/ 75k vs. Berkeley, and I nearly picked Chicago. I got a TLS message from a poster on here that nicely told me that they didn't know anyone upset with their decision to go to Berkeley, but couldn't say the same about Chicago / NYU.

It's true: almost everyone is happy here. We have a girl who dropped out of Stanford last year and reapplied and came to Boalt. Job aspects from Boalt are definitely not as good as at SLS, but making the law school experience enjoyable was worth that dip for her. I tend to agree. Once I visited for ASD here, I withdrew from Chicago and NYU and pulled myself off the HLS and YLS waitlists. I haven't regretted it once.

Awesome. Thank so much for this post Kronk! Did you try matching the 75k from Chicago to Boalt? Would you mind sharing that pm with me? . Thanks so much! Glad you're enjoying Boalt.

I did try matching, and I didn't get anything from Boalt. A lot of people with similar numbers got the same treatment. Boalt really doesn't have much money for scholarships. I have no desire to go into corporate law though, and will definitely qualify for LRAP here, which is great, so money wasn't necessarily my biggest concern. It could end up that I don't pay a penny of the $200k that I borrow.

The way I figure it, people here either go public interest and have one of the best LRAPs around, or take the BigLaw route, in which case loans aren't as big of a deal.

Also, this is purely anecdotal, but I think your chances at a scholarship are better if you are a minority or otherwise diverse.

[20160810]

Honestly, last year I was in a similar position. It was NYU or Chicago w/ 75k vs. Berkeley, and I nearly picked Chicago. I got a TLS message from a poster on here that nicely told me that they didn't know anyone upset with their decision to go to Berkeley, but couldn't say the same about Chicago / NYU.

It's true: almost everyone is happy here. We have a girl who dropped out of Stanford last year and reapplied and came to Boalt. Job aspects from Boalt are definitely not as good as at SLS, but making the law school experience enjoyable was worth that dip for her. I tend to agree. Once I visited for ASD here, I withdrew from Chicago and NYU and pulled myself off the HLS and YLS waitlists. I haven't regretted it once.

Wait - you opted out of saving $75,000 in loans and going to an objectively better school because somebody on TLS told you that people don't regret attending Berkeley, but that they regret going to Chicago? That must have been one HELL of a PM.

Nah, it was just an honest PM. Also, it was the right decision.

Yeah "objectively better" is a little silly of a way to describe two schools that have switched off in the rankings for the past 2 years. There's a case to be made for Chicago, but especially for someone in CA it isn't "objectively better."

[Kronk]

Honestly, last year I was in a similar position. It was NYU or Chicago w/ 75k vs. Berkeley, and I nearly picked Chicago. I got a TLS message from a poster on here that nicely told me that they didn't know anyone upset with their decision to go to Berkeley, but couldn't say the same about Chicago / NYU.

It's true: almost everyone is happy here. We have a girl who dropped out of Stanford last year and reapplied and came to Boalt. Job aspects from Boalt are definitely not as good as at SLS, but making the law school experience enjoyable was worth that dip for her. I tend to agree. Once I visited for ASD here, I withdrew from Chicago and NYU and pulled myself off the HLS and YLS waitlists. I haven't regretted it once.

Wait - you opted out of saving $75,000 in loans and going to an objectively better school because somebody on TLS told you that people don't regret attending Berkeley, but that they regret going to Chicago? That must have been one HELL of a PM.

Nah, it was just an honest PM. Also, it was the right decision.

Yeah "objectively better" is a little silly of a way to describe two schools that have switched off in the rankings for the past 2 years. There's a case to be made for Chicago, but especially for someone in CA it isn't "objectively better."

Yeah. I think the difference between Chicago and Berkeley is pretty overblown on TLS. For someone interested in PI, I don't think the job prospects are any worse at Boalt.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Honestly, last year I was in a similar position. It was NYU or Chicago w/ 75k vs. Berkeley, and I nearly picked Chicago. I got a TLS message from a poster on here that nicely told me that they didn't know anyone upset with their decision to go to Berkeley, but couldn't say the same about Chicago / NYU.

It's true: almost everyone is happy here. We have a girl who dropped out of Stanford last year and reapplied and came to Boalt. Job aspects from Boalt are definitely not as good as at SLS, but making the law school experience enjoyable was worth that dip for her. I tend to agree. Once I visited for ASD here, I withdrew from Chicago and NYU and pulled myself off the HLS and YLS waitlists. I haven't regretted it once.

Wait - you opted out of saving $75,000 in loans and going to an objectively better school because somebody on TLS told you that people don't regret attending Berkeley, but that they regret going to Chicago? That must have been one HELL of a PM.

Nah, it was just an honest PM. Also, it was the right decision.

Yeah "objectively better" is a little silly of a way to describe two schools that have switched off in the rankings for the past 2 years. There's a case to be made for Chicago, but especially for someone in CA it isn't "objectively better."

For PI, surely the distinction is minimal (and the LRAP is very beneficial). But in most other respects, Chicago has a slight edge, regardless of the fact that they've "switched rankings for the past 2 years." Let's not pretend that USNews ranking Berkeley above Chicago meant that Berkeley was the better school last year but that it is no longer the case. Chicago, by and large, has an edge on Berkeley (and Michigan, for that matter) in many areas, even if only slightly. And Chicago was $75,000 cheaper. Don't get me wrong - I think fit is huge, and it played a very large role in my decision. And a person's interest in PI may put Berkeley over the top because of the LRAP, so I think in Kronk's case it definitely was the correct decision. But for a person who isn't certain what type of law (s)he wants, I don't think it is necessarily the right choice with that money disparity. Keep in mind, Kronk's post that I responded to said nothing about PI - hence the confusion.

All in all, I just think it's amusing that somebody sent a PM that said, "I don't know a single person that regrets Berkeley, but tons of people that regret Chicago/NYU." That's just a ridiculously unsubstantiated and probably blatantly untrue statement, but whatever boosts the medians. I tend to be more of the "try out each school and find the right fit for you" school of thought, so the "School XYZ makes people miserable, but people here shit rainbows" approach tends to rub me the wrong way.

[Kronk]

For PI, surely the distinction is minimal (and the LRAP is very beneficial). But in most other respects, Chicago has a slight edge, regardless of the fact that they've "switched rankings for the past 2 years." Let's not pretend that USNews ranking Berkeley above Chicago meant that Berkeley was the better school last year but that it is no longer the case. Chicago, by and large, has an edge on Berkeley (and Michigan, for that matter) in many areas, even if only slightly. And Chicago was $75,000 cheaper. Don't get me wrong - I think fit is huge, and it played a very large role in my decision. And a person's interest in PI may put Berkeley over the top because of the LRAP, so I think in Kronk's case it definitely was the correct decision. But for a person who isn't certain what type of law (s)he wants, I don't think it is necessarily the right choice with that money disparity. Keep in mind, Kronk's post that I responded to said nothing about PI - hence the confusion.

All in all, I just think it's amusing that somebody sent a PM that said, "I don't know a single person that regrets Berkeley, but tons of people that regret Chicago/NYU." That's just a ridiculously unsubstantiated and probably blatantly untrue statement, but whatever boosts the medians. I tend to be more of the "try out each school and find the right fit for you" school of thought, so the "School XYZ makes people miserable, but people here shit rainbows" approach tends to rub me the wrong way.

You sound a lot like someone who has never visited Berkeley, Chicago, and NYU.

Also, the person who sent me that PM didn't attend any of those schools. So I don't think he was trying to boost medians.

[FlightoftheEarls]

For PI, surely the distinction is minimal (and the LRAP is very beneficial). But in most other respects, Chicago has a slight edge, regardless of the fact that they've "switched rankings for the past 2 years." Let's not pretend that USNews ranking Berkeley above Chicago meant that Berkeley was the better school last year but that it is no longer the case. Chicago, by and large, has an edge on Berkeley (and Michigan, for that matter) in many areas, even if only slightly. And Chicago was $75,000 cheaper. Don't get me wrong - I think fit is huge, and it played a very large role in my decision. And a person's interest in PI may put Berkeley over the top because of the LRAP, so I think in Kronk's case it definitely was the correct decision. But for a person who isn't certain what type of law (s)he wants, I don't think it is necessarily the right choice with that money disparity. Keep in mind, Kronk's post that I responded to said nothing about PI - hence the confusion.

All in all, I just think it's amusing that somebody sent a PM that said, "I don't know a single person that regrets Berkeley, but tons of people that regret Chicago/NYU." That's just a ridiculously unsubstantiated and probably blatantly untrue statement, but whatever boosts the medians. I tend to be more of the "try out each school and find the right fit for you" school of thought, so the "School XYZ makes people miserable, but people here shit rainbows" approach tends to rub me the wrong way.

You sound a lot like someone who has never visited Berkeley, Chicago, and NYU.

Also, the person who sent me that PM didn't attend any of those schools. So I don't think he was trying to boost medians.

I lived in SF and went to Berkeley (admittedly, the UG and not Boalt hall) all the time. I went to NYU's ASW. You're correct, I didn't visit Chicago.

Pointing out where I've been or haven't been does very little to change what I'm saying. And I'm not disagreeing with you - I didn't like NYU's feel and went to Michigan instead. But I think it's fair to suggest that fit is a personal consideration, and the idea that people are nearly always happy some places and frequently not happy at other places is a little odd and unfair to certain schools. Unless, of course, the person in the PM knew you were PI focused - in which case I'd probably give the same advice as long as you were absolutely certain you didn't want biglaw (not just because of Chicago's slight edge in placement, but because of the debt issue as well).

[Seally]

1) Go to Columbia unless you have some full-ride or interesting scholly at Berkeley.
2)Might also want to check class size, if one of those has a class up to 50% smaller, go there, decreased competition increases your odds for good jobs, if you don't have access to these informations or if you can fuck with anyone on your way, still go to Columbia.
3)Choose the best place for you, both of these Law Schools are very good, it will come down to your grades and network where ever you go.

[bk1]

2)Might also want to check class size, if one of those has a class up to 50% smaller, go there, decreased competition increases your odds for good jobs, if you don't have access to these informations or if you can fuck with anyone on your way, still go to Columbia.

No.

[Kronk]

For PI, surely the distinction is minimal (and the LRAP is very beneficial). But in most other respects, Chicago has a slight edge, regardless of the fact that they've "switched rankings for the past 2 years." Let's not pretend that USNews ranking Berkeley above Chicago meant that Berkeley was the better school last year but that it is no longer the case. Chicago, by and large, has an edge on Berkeley (and Michigan, for that matter) in many areas, even if only slightly. And Chicago was $75,000 cheaper. Don't get me wrong - I think fit is huge, and it played a very large role in my decision. And a person's interest in PI may put Berkeley over the top because of the LRAP, so I think in Kronk's case it definitely was the correct decision. But for a person who isn't certain what type of law (s)he wants, I don't think it is necessarily the right choice with that money disparity. Keep in mind, Kronk's post that I responded to said nothing about PI - hence the confusion.

All in all, I just think it's amusing that somebody sent a PM that said, "I don't know a single person that regrets Berkeley, but tons of people that regret Chicago/NYU." That's just a ridiculously unsubstantiated and probably blatantly untrue statement, but whatever boosts the medians. I tend to be more of the "try out each school and find the right fit for you" school of thought, so the "School XYZ makes people miserable, but people here shit rainbows" approach tends to rub me the wrong way.

You sound a lot like someone who has never visited Berkeley, Chicago, and NYU.

Also, the person who sent me that PM didn't attend any of those schools. So I don't think he was trying to boost medians.

I lived in SF and went to Berkeley (admittedly, the UG and not Boalt hall) all the time. I went to NYU's ASW. You're correct, I didn't visit Chicago.

Pointing out where I've been or haven't been does very little to change what I'm saying. And I'm not disagreeing with you - I didn't like NYU's feel and went to Michigan instead. But I think it's fair to suggest that fit is a personal consideration, and the idea that people are nearly always happy some places and frequently not happy at other places is a little odd and unfair to certain schools. Unless, of course, the person in the PM knew you were PI focused - in which case I'd probably give the same advice as long as you were absolutely certain you didn't want biglaw (not just because of Chicago's slight edge in placement, but because of the debt issue as well).

The PM had nothing to do with what job I wanted. It had to do with how happy students are. I don't think it's that absurd that some schools have happier student bodies than others.

[FlightoftheEarls]

For PI, surely the distinction is minimal (and the LRAP is very beneficial). But in most other respects, Chicago has a slight edge, regardless of the fact that they've "switched rankings for the past 2 years." Let's not pretend that USNews ranking Berkeley above Chicago meant that Berkeley was the better school last year but that it is no longer the case. Chicago, by and large, has an edge on Berkeley (and Michigan, for that matter) in many areas, even if only slightly. And Chicago was $75,000 cheaper. Don't get me wrong - I think fit is huge, and it played a very large role in my decision. And a person's interest in PI may put Berkeley over the top because of the LRAP, so I think in Kronk's case it definitely was the correct decision. But for a person who isn't certain what type of law (s)he wants, I don't think it is necessarily the right choice with that money disparity. Keep in mind, Kronk's post that I responded to said nothing about PI - hence the confusion.

All in all, I just think it's amusing that somebody sent a PM that said, "I don't know a single person that regrets Berkeley, but tons of people that regret Chicago/NYU." That's just a ridiculously unsubstantiated and probably blatantly untrue statement, but whatever boosts the medians. I tend to be more of the "try out each school and find the right fit for you" school of thought, so the "School XYZ makes people miserable, but people here shit rainbows" approach tends to rub me the wrong way.

You sound a lot like someone who has never visited Berkeley, Chicago, and NYU.

Also, the person who sent me that PM didn't attend any of those schools. So I don't think he was trying to boost medians.

I lived in SF and went to Berkeley (admittedly, the UG and not Boalt hall) all the time. I went to NYU's ASW. You're correct, I didn't visit Chicago.

Pointing out where I've been or haven't been does very little to change what I'm saying. And I'm not disagreeing with you - I didn't like NYU's feel and went to Michigan instead. But I think it's fair to suggest that fit is a personal consideration, and the idea that people are nearly always happy some places and frequently not happy at other places is a little odd and unfair to certain schools. Unless, of course, the person in the PM knew you were PI focused - in which case I'd probably give the same advice as long as you were absolutely certain you didn't want biglaw (not just because of Chicago's slight edge in placement, but because of the debt issue as well).

The PM had nothing to do with what job I wanted. It had to do with how happy students are. I don't think it's that absurd that some schools have happier student bodies than others.

If that's the case, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. It's not absurd to think that some student bodies are happier on the whole, but it is absurd to think that any single person won't fit into a certain school just because one school has a certain reputation and another doesn't. I'm glad it's worked out well for you, though.

[Kronk]

The PM had nothing to do with what job I wanted. It had to do with how happy students are. I don't think it's that absurd that some schools have happier student bodies than others.

If that's the case, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. It's not absurd to think that some student bodies are happier on the whole, but it is absurd to think that any single person won't fit into a certain school just because one school has a certain reputation and another doesn't. I'm glad it's worked out well for you, though.

All the PMer was trying to do was point out that the quality of life for people at Berkeley is generally higher than that of people at NYU and Chicago. A lot of people don't like their QOL at NYU and Chicago; almost everyone does at Boalt. You should consider this when you choose between schools.

Makes sense to me.

[JollyGreenGiant]

...until they pay back their ridiculous loans that aren't helped by scholarships and go through OCI...

[09042014]

UChi OCI >> Boalt LOLCI

[Kronk]

UChi OCI >> Boalt LOLCI

Midwesttt winter keeping you bored and inside in STDreetersville?

[09042014]

UChi OCI >> Boalt LOLCI

Midwesttt winter keeping you bored and inside in STDreetersville?

My nerve endings froze off and I can no longer feel the cold (or anything for that matter).

[irishman86]

The PM had nothing to do with what job I wanted. It had to do with how happy students are. I don't think it's that absurd that some schools have happier student bodies than others.

If that's the case, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. It's not absurd to think that some student bodies are happier on the whole, but it is absurd to think that any single person won't fit into a certain school just because one school has a certain reputation and another doesn't. I'm glad it's worked out well for you, though.

All the PMer was trying to do was point out that the quality of life for people at Berkeley is generally higher than that of people at NYU and Chicago. A lot of people don't like their QOL at NYU and Chicago; almost everyone does at Boalt. You should consider this when you choose between schools.

Makes sense to me.

How does the person know about the QOLs at different schools without attending any of them? It's weird to draw conclusions from a random sampling of 5 people, or in this case, 1 person who knew a couple other people. I also think it's weird to turn down 75k at an objectively better school (with respect to job prospects). A lot of 1Ls who start out wanting PI end up going the biglaw route (half my friends who were gun ho 1L year about PI work realized how hard it is to get a full time position post grad in PI and ended up doing OCI and are now going the biglaw route). Supposedly, a lot PI are now only hiring post-biglaw/clerkship folks and hiring for PI is even more competitive than biglaw because there are so few positions available and the amount of work experience you need to have a fighting chance.

Also, I will say that the state of your employment (i.e. unemployed or employed) affects your happiness level FAR, FAR more than supposed "fit" at different schools.

[Veyron]

*For someone who is sure they want to practice in California. Not sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Would it be crazy to take Berkeley over Columbia? Is the difference in job prospects large enough that it would be worth it to attend Columbia and hope to make it back out to California? How much money would it take to make Berkeley over Columbia an easy decision?

If you are most concerned about getting a job - go to Columbia

If you are most concerned about getting a job in california, go to Berk.

If you're so bad at logicthat you can't see the downside to Berk in what I just laid out, well, your LSAT score was probably Boalt material.

/thread.

[09042014]

*For someone who is sure they want to practice in California. Not sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Would it be crazy to take Berkeley over Columbia? Is the difference in job prospects large enough that it would be worth it to attend Columbia and hope to make it back out to California? How much money would it take to make Berkeley over Columbia an easy decision?

If you are most concerned about getting a job - go to Columbia

If you are most concerned about getting a job in California, go to Berk.

If you're so bad at logicthat you can't see the downside to Berk in what I just laid out, well, your LSAT score was probably Boalt material.

/thread.

So you are saying his LSAT isn't a 163? Rough

[fish52]

*For someone who is sure they want to practice in California. Not sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Would it be crazy to take Berkeley over Columbia? Is the difference in job prospects large enough that it would be worth it to attend Columbia and hope to make it back out to California? How much money would it take to make Berkeley over Columbia an easy decision?

If you are most concerned about getting a job - go to Columbia

If you are most concerned about getting a job in California, go to Berk.

If you're so bad at logicthat you can't see the downside to Berk in what I just laid out, well, your LSAT score was probably Boalt material.

/thread.

haha how ridiculous. The difference between CLS and Berkeley in nearly every category is marginal. If BigLaw is your thing, the difference in the percent of graduates placed in the NLJ250 between the two schools in 2009 is only 4.4% (not even taking into account the self-selection of students attending each school, the much larger percentage of Berkeley grads that choose to go into PI/Government, clerk etc.). I'd hardly look at the data and say that Berkeley is only good for working in California. If you aren't able to look at the numbers and recognize the parity, then I don't know what to tell you. Judging by the bitterness of your response, I'm assuming you were one of those applicants that had high numbers (read: anomalies) but not much to offer in the way of a CV or WE and got dinged from Boalt.

[Veyron]

*For someone who is sure they want to practice in California. Not sure what type of law I want to practice yet.

Would it be crazy to take Berkeley over Columbia? Is the difference in job prospects large enough that it would be worth it to attend Columbia and hope to make it back out to California? How much money would it take to make Berkeley over Columbia an easy decision?

If you are most concerned about getting a job - go to Columbia

If you are most concerned about getting a job in California, go to Berk.

If you're so bad at logicthat you can't see the downside to Berk in what I just laid out, well, your LSAT score was probably Boalt material.

/thread.

haha how ridiculous. The difference between CLS and Berkeley in nearly every category is marginal. If BigLaw is your thing, the difference in the percent of graduates placed in the NLJ250 between the two schools in 2009 is only 4.4% (not even taking into account the self-selection of students attending each school, the much larger percentage of Berkeley grads that choose to go into PI/Government, clerk etc.). I'd hardly look at the data and say that Berkeley is only good for working in California. If you aren't able to look at the numbers and recognize the parity, then I don't know what to tell you. Judging by the bitterness of your response, I'm assuming you were one of those applicants that had high numbers (read: anomalies) but not much to offer in the way of a CV or WE and got dinged from Boalt.

*Looks at numbers* *sees that Boalt and Yale appear to have similar biglaw placement* *sends deposit to Boalt* *???* *Does not profit*

[Kronk]

If you go to Berkeley and want a V5 job, make sure you're sociable and get good grades (like, all Hs, which is only the equivalent of top 20-30% of the class). Is it different anywhere else with the exception of Harvard and Yale?

[09042014]

LOL I'm illiterate.