CLS sucks for Public Interest? Forum

[homestyle28]

Every school is going to claim to be good at placing graduates for every career path. It just isn't true in the real world.

SO CLS = Cooley now?

No, CLS = NYC biglaw

Outside of NYC CLS is much more lacking in the lay prestige department than Harvard, Yale or Stanford.

I don't disagree here either. But, at least according to the article I lead this off with students at CLS seem to think that the school isn't making an effort in the arena of PI placement. I don't think anyone is guaranteed a job, esp. ite. but it seems reasonable that schools should make their best efforts. At least that doesn't seem crazy to me, maybe idealistic, but not crazy.

[bdubs]

Every school is going to claim to be good at placing graduates for every career path. It just isn't true in the real world.

SO CLS = Cooley now?

No, CLS = NYC biglaw

Outside of NYC CLS is much more lacking in the lay prestige department than Harvard, Yale or Stanford.

I don't disagree here either. But, at least according to the article I lead this off with students at CLS seem to think that the school isn't making an effort in the arena of PI placement. I don't think anyone is guaranteed a job, esp. ite. but it seems reasonable that schools should make their best efforts. At least that doesn't seem crazy to me, maybe idealistic, but not crazy.

I just got from the article that the students want the school to go above and beyond what they already do by keeping the career center open well beyond the period when the vast majority of students would utilize it, and somehow magically increase retention within the department that advises PI interested students.

[homestyle28]

I just got from the article that the students want the school to go above and beyond what they already do by keeping the career center open well beyond the period when the vast majority of students would utilize it, and somehow magically increase retention within the department that advises PI interested students.

hmm. It looked to me that they were looking for some info/communication from the administration.

[Unemployed]

I'm interested to see where these people ranked in the class and the effort they put in trying to find a PI job. Probably a bunch of below medians students who missed the biglaw boat and now expect CLS to bail them out. I'm not saying CLS shouldn't make the effort, but I think I'm going to side with the 4th ranked school in the nation over 250 disgruntled students who decided to sign a petition. I don't know if you heard, but the law market isn't doing too hot right now. It takes more than a school name to get a job, PI or not.

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

[homestyle28]

I'm interested to see where these people ranked in the class and the effort they put in trying to find a PI job. Probably a bunch of below medians students who missed the biglaw boat and now expect CLS to bail them out. I'm not saying CLS shouldn't make the effort, but I think I'm going to side with the 4th ranked school in the nation over 250 disgruntled students who decided to sign a petition. I don't know if you heard, but the law market isn't doing too hot right now. It takes more than a school name to get a job, PI or not.

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

Interesting.

[FuManChusco]

I'm interested to see where these people ranked in the class and the effort they put in trying to find a PI job. Probably a bunch of below medians students who missed the biglaw boat and now expect CLS to bail them out. I'm not saying CLS shouldn't make the effort, but I think I'm going to side with the 4th ranked school in the nation over 250 disgruntled students who decided to sign a petition. I don't know if you heard, but the law market isn't doing too hot right now. It takes more than a school name to get a job, PI or not.

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

Interesting.

if you're spending that much money you should probably know that in terms of PI, NYU>CLS. maybe CLS could do more to help PI focused students, but the vast majority of students go their for biglaw and I'm sure the school recognizes this.

I still think the petition was probably started by an entitled douchebag who missed biglaw and is too dumb and pretentious to get a job on his own. he probably whined a bunch and got a bunch of his classmates to sign a petition even though they don't give two shits. whatever though. I couldn't care less.

[CG614]

I'm interested to see where these people ranked in the class and the effort they put in trying to find a PI job. Probably a bunch of below medians students who missed the biglaw boat and now expect CLS to bail them out. I'm not saying CLS shouldn't make the effort, but I think I'm going to side with the 4th ranked school in the nation over 250 disgruntled students who decided to sign a petition. I don't know if you heard, but the law market isn't doing too hot right now. It takes more than a school name to get a job, PI or not.

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

Interesting.

if you're spending that much money you should probably know that in terms of PI, NYU>CLS. maybe CLS could do more to help PI focused students, but the vast majority of students go their for biglaw and I'm sure the school recognizes this.

I still think the petition was probably started by an entitled douchebag who missed biglaw and is too dumb and pretentious to get a job on his own. he probably whined a bunch and got a bunch of his classmates to sign a petition even though they don't give two shits. whatever though. I couldn't care less.

This statement is ignorant. I did not sign the petition, but have friends who did. They solely want to bring to the administrations attention the lack of expertise and ability of the PI office here. The office is hurting, as the dean is out on sick leave and the temporary dean just took a lawyering position at a PI firm or institution. Columbia admin are committed to the PI career wishes of their students, but they don't really see the issues that the students have to deal with on a daily basis. Basically, this petition is to get better oversight and management of the office, not because the school does not care.

Secondly, nowhere in the petition does it say that students feel entitled to jobs, so chill out. However, it is not unreasonable to ask your law school to provide you with quality support in your job search. I could make wild accusations about your post saying that it sounds like you are jealous of CLS students, but I have no basis of doing that, so I will not. I would recommend you follow a similar standard.

[FuManChusco]

Its an online forum so get off your high horse. No way 200+ columbia students are gunning for PI, nevermind failing to get it. That's my point. I seriously doubt all those who signed even really care about more oversight or management. 195 of them probably have dope jobs lined up. Its a damn biglaw factory for NY. Anyone who starts a petition because CLS isn't holding their hand through the career process is an entitled douche. Ante up and deal with it. I would kill to go to CLS. It doesn't mean I can't talk shit about the idiots who chose it over NYU for PI and then complained when CLS wasn't devoting their endowment to a field less than a quarter of the class is looking for.

[homestyle28]

Its an online forum so get off your high horse. No way 200+ columbia students are gunning for PI, nevermind failing to get it. That's my point. I seriously doubt all those who signed even really care about more oversight or management. 195 of them probably have dope jobs lined up. Its a damn biglaw factory for NY. Anyone who starts a petition because CLS isn't holding their hand through the career process is an entitled douche. Ante up and deal with it. I would kill to go to CLS. It doesn't mean I can't talk shit about the idiots who chose it over NYU for PI and then complained when CLS wasn't devoting their endowment to a field less than a quarter of the class is looking for.

wow. you just lost all credibility. CG614 is actually at CLS and would know much better than you who are just homicidal for admission.

[FuManChusco]

Its an online forum so get off your high horse. No way 200+ columbia students are gunning for PI, nevermind failing to get it. That's my point. I seriously doubt all those who signed even really care about more oversight or management. 195 of them probably have dope jobs lined up. Its a damn biglaw factory for NY. Anyone who starts a petition because CLS isn't holding their hand through the career process is an entitled douche. Ante up and deal with it. I would kill to go to CLS. It doesn't mean I can't talk shit about the idiots who chose it over NYU for PI and then complained when CLS wasn't devoting their endowment to a field less than a quarter of the class is looking for.

wow. you just lost all credibility. CG614 is actually at CLS and would know much better than you who are just homicidal for admission.

As if I had credibility on an online forum to begin with. You act like I'm saying I'm extremely informed on the situation and know everything. I'm just tossing out opinions because this seems so ridiculous. I don't give a shit about CLS or its students. You have to be oblivious to the real world to think this is an actual problem worth petitioning for though.

[CG614]

Its an online forum so get off your high horse. No way 200+ columbia students are gunning for PI, nevermind failing to get it. That's my point. I seriously doubt all those who signed even really care about more oversight or management. 195 of them probably have dope jobs lined up. Its a damn biglaw factory for NY. Anyone who starts a petition because CLS isn't holding their hand through the career process is an entitled douche. Ante up and deal with it. I would kill to go to CLS. It doesn't mean I can't talk shit about the idiots who chose it over NYU for PI and then complained when CLS wasn't devoting their endowment to a field less than a quarter of the class is looking for.

wow. you just lost all credibility. CG614 is actually at CLS and would know much better than you who are just homicidal for admission.

As if I had credibility on an online forum to begin with. You act like I'm saying I'm extremely informed on the situation and know everything. I'm just tossing out opinions because this seems so ridiculous. I don't give a shit about CLS or its students. You have to be oblivious to the real world to think this is an actual problem worth petitioning for though.

The problem stems from there being no market for 1L SA positions, therefore forcing most all 1Ls to deal with the PI office. I want to go to a firm, so this really isn't my argument to be had, but I must say that choosing CLS over NYU for PI is not a dumb move by any means. NYU has a reputation of PI, but that doesn't mean it places better. CLS students just want better support. Either way, your argument lacks any resemblance of logic or a point, so I will stop responding. Just wanted to clear up what may have been misconceptions about the petition. In my opinion, the petition was a little extreme, but it is served the goal of getting the administrations attention, therefore I cannot say it was wrong.

[FuManChusco]

So you're saying the petition was over the top and that a lack of 1L positions forced people that wanted biglaw into PI? Sounds about right. I also think anyone with half a brain would choose NYU over CLS for biglaw, but whatever you say.

[CG614]

So you're saying the petition was over the top and that a lack of 1L positions forced people that wanted biglaw into PI? Sounds about right. I also think anyone with half a brain would choose NYU over CLS for biglaw, but whatever you say.

I guess you know how you will choose. Good luck.

[$1.99]

with your 2.x you won't be attending CLS so why don't you take your retardation to another thread. maybe the cooley class of 2014 thread

[FuManChusco]

So you're saying the petition was over the top and that a lack of 1L positions forced people that wanted biglaw into PI? Sounds about right. I also think anyone with half a brain would choose NYU over CLS for biglaw, but whatever you say.

I guess you know how you will choose. Good luck.

Haha, I could never get either with my gpa. I just like messing with people while I'm bored at work.

[Renzo]

The problem stems from there being no market for 1L SA positions, therefore forcing most all 1Ls to deal with the PI office. I want to go to a firm, so this really isn't my argument to be had, but I must say that choosing CLS over NYU for PI is not a dumb move by any means. NYU has a reputation of PI, but that doesn't mean it places better.

The petition highlights exactly why it would be at least a tiny, teeny bit dumb to choose CLS over NYU for PI. Granted, there are plenty of factors in choosing a law school, and it would be easy for any one individual to find CLS>NYU, despite wanting PI. But NYU has more than mere reputation for PI: they have a very serious institutional commitment to it that manifests in the quality of people in the PILC office, the resources available, and even the amount of propaganda aimed at students to get them to forego biglaw for PI.

[BruceWayne]

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

CLS LRAP is essentially the most generous in the nation after the one's at HYS--particularly for those interested in working government positions (doesn't phase out at the government salaries that are higher then other PI fields but still substantially lower than law firm salaries).

[Renzo]

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

CLS LRAP is essentially the most generous in the nation after the one's at HYS--particularly for those interested in working government positions (doesn't phase out at the government salaries that are higher then other PI fields but still substantially lower than law firm salaries).

Why do you even show up in these threads? Go back below the Mason Dixon line and stay there.

[BruceWayne]

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

CLS LRAP is essentially the most generous in the nation after the one's at HYS--particularly for those interested in working government positions (doesn't phase out at the government salaries that are higher then other PI fields but still substantially lower than law firm salaries).

Why do you even show up in these threads? Go back below the Mason Dixon line and stay there.

Out of curiosity, what's with your fascination with Black guys?

[Renzo]

As far as I can tell, a big chunk of those who signed the petition are 2L's and 3L's with summer associate and permanent offers (and at least a passing interest in government/PI).

Columbia isn't exactly a renowned public interest hub, but then again, most of us didn't actually believe it to be inferior to NYU as far as the name value and networking opportunities in PI. I don't know about the name value, but the recent changes leave no doubt that CLS is definitely inferior in terms of institutional support.

This is not entitled whining. Columbia is much richer than NYU as an institution and CLS charges a higher tuition, and yet it is inferior to NYU in every way when it comes to funding PI initiatives - LRAP, summer funding, PI fair, you name it. Basically NYU does better at everything that costs money. Why? Because at NYU, the law school is one of its premier flagship institutions. They take money from continuing ed, Gallatin and all the other bullshit colleges, and funnel it to the law school. Columbia University, on the other hand, has a much more traditional view of the law school (i.e. cash cow). The university may not actually profit from the law school, but it sure as hell won't lose money on its account.

CLS LRAP is essentially the most generous in the nation after the one's at HYS--particularly for those interested in working government positions (doesn't phase out at the government salaries that are higher then other PI fields but still substantially lower than law firm salaries).

Why do you even show up in these threads? Go back below the Mason Dixon line and stay there.

Out of curiosity, what's with your fascination with Black guys?

Maybe my husband's a black guy. Maybe I have a fetish. Or, maybe some of them play characters I like on TV.

[worldtraveler]

I don't go to Columbia so I can't really comment on their career services. However, I think law schools in general do a pretty poor job with public interest career services. The first problem is just lumping everything "public interest" together. Getting a job with the UN or with legal aid are entirely different, and law schools tend to treat it as if all public interest students need to do the exact same things. They often assign one person to advise on just everything that isn't a firm. That doesn't make it PI.

I think some students expect far too much hand holding, and I've had people ask me who helped me find a summer job, where I got a list of places to apply, etc. to make me think that a lot of students aren't prepared to find their own jobs and expect career services to do way too much hand holding. However, there are things like fellowship applications, which can be fairly complicated and a school should be prepared to help candidates. They also could give better contacts for alumni and get people started on the job search.

[JG Hall]

Students aren't complaining about PI job placement, but rather the insane turnover at the PI office.

I do wonder how much traction the bitching about PI will get, as it's not like we have a stellar Career Services office either. CLS administration just sucks in general. And the Schiz seems to be notoriously unresponsive to student concerns (unless you're an LLM and want more hot water).

[Borhas]

(unless you're an LLM and want more hot water).

people getting catty over at CLS huh

[chris0805]

I don't go to Columbia so I can't really comment on their career services. However, I think law schools in general do a pretty poor job with public interest career services. The first problem is just lumping everything "public interest" together. Getting a job with the UN or with legal aid are entirely different, and law schools tend to treat it as if all public interest students need to do the exact same things. They often assign one person to advise on just everything that isn't a firm. That doesn't make it PI.

I think some students expect far too much hand holding, and I've had people ask me who helped me find a summer job, where I got a list of places to apply, etc. to make me think that a lot of students aren't prepared to find their own jobs and expect career services to do way too much hand holding. However, there are things like fellowship applications, which can be fairly complicated and a school should be prepared to help candidates. They also could give better contacts for alumni and get people started on the job search.

THIS + 1 Million. I'm a recent CLS grad (on lunch break from my PI Job that I love... no I'm serious), and CLS provided a TON of opportunities for me. The school is in NYC, it has many ways to get involved, and I loved it. That said, the "advising" wasn't always mind-blowing, but I'm not sure what I'd want them to do for me anyway. They had lists of pro-bono/clinic/externship stuff; I picked things that interested me and did them.

With that said, the turnover is worrying. I don't know WHY people keep leaving, but I can imagine its disconcerting for the students. I don't think NYU is really doing anything better in terms of advising their PI students (at least from what I hear from NYU colleagues), but they're not getting the same kind of turnover. I guess they have that going for them.

No law school is a good place for PI. That's just the truth. Don't listen to any PR. It's not what law schools see themselves for, and it's not the school's focus (well maybe at CUNY or Northeastern, but certainly nowhere in the T30). Nevertheless, compared to other schools, I loved what CLS offered me as a student, and I'm happy I got the job I did (which I have to get back to in 10 minutes).

[JG Hall]

(unless you're an LLM and want more hot water).

people getting catty over at CLS huh

I'll admit, I abhor the LLMs. I should probably just let them pad the curve and get over it.