HELP!!: Notre Dame Law vs. UC Davis Law Forum

[Informative]

Hey Guys,

I'm a recent transfer trying to decide between UC Davis and Notre Dame. They are comparably ranked (28 and 22) but are also clearly very different. I am not religious, and pretty liberal, so the fact that ND is jesuit raises a large red flag in my mind. I have no problem having catholic friends, but i have been told that some professors are priests, some prayers may be said in class, every dorm has a priest, and every building has its own chapel At the same time it is an amazing school that does emphasize morality in the law and does place graduates nationally (even if most are in the midwest).

UCD matches my personality well and I love the campus and the people. However it is a young law school coming up and is not as well established - not many alumni work outside california. I would really like to choose Davis - my only hesitancy being job placement. I am not entirely decided where I would like to live long term but it is between New York and San Francisco. ND provides both options while UCD provides only one really.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!

First, ND isn't Jesuit. It's run by the Congregation of the Holy Cross. Georgetown and Boston College are run by Jesuits.

Second, why would a religious institution "raise[] a large red flag in [your] mind"? If you have a problem with the fact that two or three professors might also be priests, or that the undergraduates live in dormitories (where you won't live) with a priest or nun in the same building and a chapel, then it sounds like off the top that you definitely have a "problem" with Catholics.

Notre Dame is a Catholic school. If you can't get over the fact that some people might choose to express their Catholic faith publicly and prefer an environment where non-religion stifles the school, go for it.

But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.

As for Davis, I can't say a whole lot, but the people who think that 1965 doesn't really matter aren't exactly right. ND has a ton of lay prestige (which, surprisingly, can matter), it has long roots for those who didn't attend ND or create its alumni base, and the prestigious undergrad also helps with the alumni network. I can't say what the relative strengths are with Davis. But football is obviously a strength with ND--it's a great way to get away on the weekends with campus friends.

Finally, as for job placement, ND sends 20-30 people each year back to California, which is big for a class size of only 180. Davis, meanwhile, keeps virtually everyone in-state. The last bar data said the split was something like 40-50 to Illinois, 20-30 to California, 20-30 to New York, and a bunch of people all over the country. So if you want geographic diversity, then hands down it's Notre Dame.

I'll let the Davis defenders speak up, because I don't really have anything negative to say about them, but I can't say a whole lot other than "good in California."

They say prayer at the begining of class at ND? No profs at BC or Georgetown do this. I have no problem going to a catholic school, even a non-Jesuit one, but saying prayer before class is a bit much.

[nocal]

Posting very late but doing so for those searching for information on the same topic. Notre Dame should be the clear winner, even for practicing in CA. I know this from personal experience. Davis is a good school, but not a par with ND. I know grads from both, and the experiences they are having in the CA job market. People who argue QOL for Davis have no idea what they are talking about, and obviously have no real exposure to both.

[sundance95]

Just wanted to stick up for the Jesuits-Jesuit schools tend NOT to be intensely religiously conservative. ND, on the other hand, is, and is NOT run by the Jesuits.

[OperaSoprano]

Just wanted to stick up for the Jesuits-Jesuit schools tend NOT to be intensely religiously conservative. ND, on the other hand, is, and is NOT run by the Jesuits.

This.

<3, a Fordham student.

[bk1]

Posting very late but doing so for those searching for information on the same topic. Notre Dame should be the clear winner, even for practicing in CA. I know this from personal experience. Davis is a good school, but not a par with ND. I know grads from both, and the experiences they are having in the CA job market. People who argue QOL for Davis have no idea what they are talking about, and obviously have no real exposure to both.

[General Tso]

unless we are talking scholarships, I'd probably say neither...my feeling is that most schools in the 25-50 range no longer provide distinct advantages over schools 50-100, so a generally safer move is to take $$ at a lower ranked school.

FWIW I chose Hastings over big $$ money at SoCal T2s, and while I like Hastings, I think it may have been an improvident decision.

[lisjjen]

unless we are talking scholarships, I'd probably say neither...my feeling is that most schools in the 25-50 range no longer provide distinct advantages over schools 50-100, so a generally safer move is to take $$ at a lower ranked school.

FWIW I chose Hastings over big $$ money at SoCal T2s, and while I like Hastings, I think it may have been an improvident decision.

I thought Hastings had weirdly high placement in San Francisco.

[MrSparkle]

TL, DR

Go to Davis. If years of strategy games have taught me anything, you never choose the mediocre choice in the middle. Go with one extreme or the other.

Also UCD has a lot of legal prestige in Sacramento/CA gov't...I think b/c a lot of judges graduated from there.

[UnTouChablE]

But for virtually all non-Catholics at ND (based upon your post, you might end up being the exception), it's never been an issue. You let the 10-second prayer at the start of a few professors' class roll past. You won't even know when or where weekly mass is. You will never set foot in the chapel in the law school. You just live your life and accept that there might be people of faith taking their faith seriously around you.

Maybe she'd be uncomfortable attending an institution that refuses to allow a gay student group to form and that refuses to add sexual orientation to it's non-discrimination clause. And maybe she wants to go to a university that can have a performance of the Vagina Monologues without a months-long debate over whether or not it should be allowed. Get real. It's tolerable for non-Catholics, but you're just indignantly missing the point.

Ah, how quaint. Rather than address the issues pertaining to Notre Dame Law School, you choose to misrepresent a number of particular causes that occur among the undergraduate student body (ignoring the fact that they are essentially irrelevant to the operation of the law school) and insist that I must be "indignant[]" in missing the point.

Notre Dame (the undergraduate institution, in an event unrelated to the law school) has allowed a "gay student group" to form, the University's official "Core Council," which is not a formal advocacy group. A number of students continue to run an unofficially recognized group known as "AllianceND," which, while not formally recognized by the university, has been "allow[ed]...to form" and engages in regular protests and demonstrations without obstruction from the university (such as its "Gay? Fine by me" campaign).

Notre Dame has not included "sexual orientation to it's [sic] non-discrimination clause," but, beyond my knowledge, perhaps you're familiar with some explicit, overt act committed by the university that denied a student admission because of sexual orientation. Certainly, the bare fact, standing alone, that a school lacks a particular formal "non-discrimination clause" can be symbolic, but it may be entirely unrelated to any actual acts of discrimination.

Notre Dame (the undergraduate institution, in an event unrelated to the law school) did, in fact, have a debate about whether to allow the Vagina Monologues to perform. It was a long, spirited debate. Maybe you don't think that people should talk about theatrical performances that, by their nature, are designed to stir up debate and dialogue, and should instead unquestionably and blindly accept them without rote consideration. And in the end, the university authorized it. And in the end, students eventually stopped performing it.

Now, maybe you (and I mean you, not the OP) have thin enough skin where you're concerned about a number of issues that will never touch the average law student's life unless they go hunting for ways to become offended. But the OP expressed concern about the Catholic and religious nature of the institution, not the particular socially conservative issue positions of the university. The OP's concerns were about priests and prayers and chapels.

But now that you've opened up your own irrelevant concerns about the law school, it's quite obvious that your perspective is one blinded by some kind of anti-Notre Dame agenda driven, in part, by a particular political point of view. And that's perfectly fine. There are a number of liberals at Notre Dame, who, during their time, found time and opportunity to get as outraged as you are about a number of barely-relevant issues that rarely affected them personally, much less the law school. And, appropriately enough, there are a number of conservatives at Notre Dame, who, during their time, found time and opportunity to get as outraged as you are about a number of barely-relevant issues, coming down on the opposite side--shocked that the university would allow a formal gay student group, stunned that protesters would be allowed to picket concerning gay issues, outraged that the university authorized the performance of the Vagina Monologues.

But for you, and the others, in this thread, I haven't seen a case for Davis. I've seen bashing of Notre Dame and a series of cries that I must be "indignantly missing the point," when, in fact, it's who you issued a number of concerns the OP never had and aired them out in this discussion.

Finally, it appears that a number of you (Teoeo included) are fairly illiterate, so I'll try again. I was deconstructing some of the OP's concerns about Notre Dame, and I built a positive case for ND. But I also noted that "If you can't get over the fact that some people might choose to express their Catholic faith," he shouldn't go; that "I can't say a whole lot" about Davis; that "I'll let the Davis defenders speak up, because I don't really have anything negative to say about them"; and that Davis is "good in California."

So, there we go. I doubt I'll earn any "+1s" or be told that I "pwned" anyone or have anyone so snappy as to reply to a thread of mine with a "TITCR," devoid of any actual content. But, to the degree that I can actually help the OP rather than snipe at the posters in this thread, I am happy to do so.

rad law: you raise a fair point about native Californians. I'd like to know where the OP is from. But if the OP has any inclination to go to New York, ND is a far better option. If the OP would be quite happy to take any job available in California, Davis is certainly the safer choice.

That made me sad so here you go; +1, 'you pwned' and TITCR... There! I feel much better.

NDLS is the credited response tho, for several reasons. Neither school gurantees you a job, the most you get is a 15-20% shot at OCI which means the most reliable other source for jobs is networking. You already started the networking process and you want a school that advances that; not one where eastcoast lawyers have to wonder 'where you went to school'. NDLS gives you just that, noone will confuse NDLS for Michigan but then noone will confuse NDLS with 'generic online law school'. You already worked at law firms so you are ahead of the game, take the most 'lay' prestige you can get and it can really help with someone giving you a shot. Am sure in Cali, UCD is fine but you already planted roots in NYC that you should focus on growing, shit going to UCD with no ties is definitely not the smart thing to do. The network you have is important and NDLS allows you to maximize that network, which should be your only goal.

[General Tso]

unless we are talking scholarships, I'd probably say neither...my feeling is that most schools in the 25-50 range no longer provide distinct advantages over schools 50-100, so a generally safer move is to take $$ at a lower ranked school.

FWIW I chose Hastings over big $$ money at SoCal T2s, and while I like Hastings, I think it may have been an improvident decision.

I thought Hastings had weirdly high placement in San Francisco.

not really. not anymore at least. as the legal sector has become national in scope, so too has SF hiring. SF has become a top 5 destination for T14 students.

[20160810]

unless we are talking scholarships, I'd probably say neither...my feeling is that most schools in the 25-50 range no longer provide distinct advantages over schools 50-100, so a generally safer move is to take $$ at a lower ranked school.

FWIW I chose Hastings over big $$ money at SoCal T2s, and while I like Hastings, I think it may have been an improvident decision.

There's no way I could have gotten my job with my grades at Santa Clara or Loyola.

[General Tso]

unless we are talking scholarships, I'd probably say neither...my feeling is that most schools in the 25-50 range no longer provide distinct advantages over schools 50-100, so a generally safer move is to take $$ at a lower ranked school.

FWIW I chose Hastings over big $$ money at SoCal T2s, and while I like Hastings, I think it may have been an improvident decision.

There's no way I could have gotten my job with my grades at Santa Clara or Loyola.

You wouldn't have the same grades at Santa Clara or Loyola. It's impossible to know that beforehand, I suppose.

Like you said in other threads...it's a lottery. You and I are at similar schools with (I suppose) similar grades. You won, and your financial investment has paid off. I've lost, and if I am going to earn 50-60k anyway I could have done it more cheaply at a lower ranked school.

The way I see it, an entering student has about a 10% chance of getting a highly paid job out of a lower T1 like Davis or Hastings. Yet the chances of getting a 50-60k LEGAL job out of a T2 are something more like 33-40%. Lower reward, but higher odds of a smart financial decision.