St. Johns Full tuition+mentorship v. Davis 20k tuition Forum

[Total Litigator]

Yes, this is going to be a difficult choice... However, myself coming from a T2 school (one ranked in the 50's, best school in its city) and getting a decent GPA (top 30%), I can say that your job prospects seem much rosier going in than they do when you're actually there... I still vote Davis, but I really want to hear an opinion from someone who votes for St. John's (although I think its telling that there aren't many)...

What I really want to ask though was if you had considered cost of living differences? Cost of living in Manhattan will be about twice the cost of living in Davis. Where Davis might cost you 15K/year, Manhattan will cost you at least 27K/year. That's a healthy 12K difference. Have you taken that into consideration?

Also, if you lose your scholarship at St. Johns (which I will admit is unlikely) you will be paying 10K a year more than if you lose your scholarship at Davis (I assume you're a resident).

Anyway, I hope you get more feedback from other people, but I do think that Davis is almost absolutely the correct choice.

Also, at the school where I'm coming from, almost none of the top 10% of the class at the end of 1L year were the ones who came in with substantial scholarships (this straight from the mouth of the head of financial aid). However, I think this is because students with less money worries don't work as hard as the ones who are top 10% or bust, and you may be able to skirt this statistic with some hard work and determination.

And to provide full disclosure, I applied to Davis but didn't get in. Not sure if that makes my advice any less pertinent though...

[aPosseAdEsse]

Yes, this is going to be a difficult choice... However, myself coming from a T2 school (one ranked in the 50's, best school in its city) and getting a decent GPA (top 30%), I can say that your job prospects seem much rosier going in than they do when you're actually there... I still vote Davis, but I really want to hear an opinion from someone who votes for St. John's (although I think its telling that there aren't many)...

What I really want to ask though was if you had considered cost of living differences? Cost of living in Manhattan will be about twice the cost of living in Davis. Where Davis might cost you 15K/year, Manhattan will cost you at least 27K/year. That's a healthy 12K difference. Have you taken that into consideration?

Also, if you lose your scholarship at St. Johns (which I will admit is unlikely) you will be paying 10K a year more than if you lose your scholarship at Davis (I assume you're a resident).

Anyway, I hope you get more feedback from other people, but I do think that Davis is almost absolutely the correct choice.

Also, at the school where I'm coming from, almost none of the top 10% of the class at the end of 1L year were the ones who came in with substantial scholarships (this straight from the mouth of the head of financial aid). However, I think this is because students with less money worries don't work as hard as the ones who are top 10% or bust, and you may be able to skirt this statistic with some hard work and determination.

And to provide full disclosure, I applied to Davis but didn't get in. Not sure if that makes my advice any less pertinent though...

Hey, I really appreciate this thorough reply. First, yes, I’ve roughly factored in cost of living in my debt estimates of St Johns ~60k Davis ~110k. Second, you’re absolutely right, if I lose my scholarship at St John’s I’ll basically have to give up on law school based on cost vs. value.
That’s really interesting that the top 10% didn’t have substantial scholarships at your old school. That worries me actually.

Out of curiosity, it looks like you chose WUSTL, even though most of TLS was telling you GWU the night before you had to decide (and you were leaning GWU). How did you decide?

[aPosseAdEsse]

Here's another angle:

I end 1L at roughly top 49% and St Johns, and I think "Well, I might be screwed for biglaw, perhaps even most firm jobs, but at least I can go pursue public interest or government without hefty debt," and I continue. Graduate roughly the same. Get a 45k/year job. Or decide law isn't for me, but that's o.k.; it was just 60k

I end 1L at roughly top 49% at Davis, and I think "Well, I might be screwed for big law, and **** now I have to pursue public interest or government WITH hefty Debt," and now I don't even know if I can continue. Now if I decide to continue I'm facing $110k in debt!

Doesn't situation 2 seem worse?

[Total Litigator]

Yes, it does I guess. However, I would feel much better coming from Davis at median than St. John's at median. I have a feeling that the median at St. John are relegated to small town New York law, if law at all, while the median at Davis could still get small firm law in a nice part of northern California.

I guess it just comes to down gut feeling for me then. I would much rather be coming from Davis in CA than from St. John's in New York. I have a feeling that once you get to St. John's you'll feel like a little fish in a big pond. To me Davis is a good school in CA, St. John's is a bad school in New York. If you had lived in NY for a while and knew you'd be comfortable there the choice might be different... but personally I would go Davis. I really don't have much more to offer by way of advice I guess...

[98234872348]

Here's another angle:

I end 1L at roughly top 49% and St Johns, and I think "Well, I might be screwed for biglaw, perhaps even most firm jobs, but at least I can go pursue public interest or government without hefty debt," and I continue. Graduate roughly the same. Get a 45k/year job. Or decide law isn't for me, but that's o.k.; it was just 60k

I end 1L at roughly top 49% at Davis, and I think "Well, I might be screwed for big law, and **** now I have to pursue public interest or government WITH hefty Debt," and now I don't even know if I can continue. Now if I decide to continue I'm facing $110k in debt!

Doesn't situation 2 seem worse?

And by this comment you have demonstrated why neither of these options are particularly good.

[blurbz]

Yes, it does I guess. However, I would feel much better coming from Davis at median than St. John's at median. I have a feeling that the median at St. John are relegated to small town New York law, if law at all, while the median at Davis could still get small firm law in a nice part of northern California.

I guess it just comes to down gut feeling for me then. I would much rather be coming from Davis in CA than from St. John's in New York. I have a feeling that once you get to St. John's you'll feel like a little fish in a big pond. To me Davis is a good school in CA, St. John's is a bad school in New York. If you had lived in NY for a while and knew you'd be comfortable there the choice might be different... but personally I would go Davis. I really don't have much more to offer by way of advice I guess...

For a new poster, you give pretty sound advice. Congratulations on not being terrible, like many of your post-count peers.

OP: This is good advice.

[bogart]

I saw a St. J's 2l taking questions in the "discuss your school section" might want to hit him/her up with some questions, particularily about how their oci is going.

[somewhatwayward]

I am too lazy to get into a debate about the predictive value of admission criteria but the bottom line is that 17% is a LOT more than 9% which pretty much sums up the reason I think Davis is a no brainer.

I appreciate your brevity. Since 17 less 9 is still only 8, I'm not convinced that the difference is that huge given the pricetag. That's $6,250 PER percentage point, but gain I appreciate your point of view.

you don't compare 17% to 9% by substracting bc that would imply that the difference between 17% and 9% is the same as the difference between 95% to 87%, eg. you are about two times more likely to get biglaw out of davis (that's 100% more likely).

[blurbz]

I am too lazy to get into a debate about the predictive value of admission criteria but the bottom line is that 17% is a LOT more than 9% which pretty much sums up the reason I think Davis is a no brainer.

I appreciate your brevity. Since 17 less 9 is still only 8, I'm not convinced that the difference is that huge given the pricetag. That's $6,250 PER percentage point, but gain I appreciate your point of view.

you don't compare 17% to 9% by substracting bc that would imply that the difference between 17% and 9% is the same as the difference between 95% to 87%, eg. you are about two times more likely to get biglaw out of davis (that's 100% more likely).

+1...This is an important point: While neither school is particularly high (and ITE there are few that are...), comparing the two to each other is worthwhile only if done with proper perspective. As the above poster said, Davis is about 100% more likely to land you biglaw than is St. John's.

[bk1]

Here's another angle:

I end 1L at roughly top 49% and St Johns, and I think "Well, I might be screwed for biglaw, perhaps even most firm jobs, but at least I can go pursue public interest or government without hefty debt," and I continue. Graduate roughly the same. Get a 45k/year job. Or decide law isn't for me, but that's o.k.; it was just 60k

I end 1L at roughly top 49% at Davis, and I think "Well, I might be screwed for big law, and **** now I have to pursue public interest or government WITH hefty Debt," and now I don't even know if I can continue. Now if I decide to continue I'm facing $110k in debt!

Doesn't situation 2 seem worse?

60k is a still a lot of debt. To me, either way (60 or 110) if you don't have a job you're screwed. Getting a job or a better job just seems more likely out of UCD.

[Total Litigator]

For a new poster, you give pretty sound advice. Congratulations on not being terrible, like many of your post-count peers.

OP: This is good advice.

lol Thanks, OP made a decent point and I had to think about it for a second. TLS posting is addictive... I'll be up there in no time lol

[aPosseAdEsse]

Thanks everyone! I chose Davis. It was a difficult one to make, but I think it was in fact the right decision after all. So stoked!

[20160810]

Yes, it does I guess. However, I would feel much better coming from Davis at median than St. John's at median. I have a feeling that the median at St. John are relegated to small town New York law, if law at all, while the median at Davis could still get small firm law in a nice part of northern California.

I guess it just comes to down gut feeling for me then. I would much rather be coming from Davis in CA than from St. John's in New York. I have a feeling that once you get to St. John's you'll feel like a little fish in a big pond. To me Davis is a good school in CA, St. John's is a bad school in New York. If you had lived in NY for a while and knew you'd be comfortable there the choice might be different... but personally I would go Davis. I really don't have much more to offer by way of advice I guess...

Pre-ITE, this might have been true. Now, I don't see a lot of small firms in Northern CA or elsewhere hiring people at the median from UCD. You don't want to be at the median at either of these schools, truth be told, but the difference is that if you're top-25-33% from UCD, you're going to be OK.

[Total Litigator]

OP: I think you should be confident that you made the right choice, albeit a difficult one. Now read "Getting to Maybe," take a LEEWS class, study hard, supplement your reading/briefing with good aids like Examples and Explanations and have a great 1L year.

[aPosseAdEsse]

OP: I think you should be confident that you made the right choice, albeit a difficult one. Now read "Getting to Maybe," take a LEEWS class, study hard, supplement your reading/briefing with good aids like Examples and Explanations and have a great 1L year.

Thank you, and now to gettin' to it!

[blurbz]

Congratulations and good luck!