Penn State v. Temple v. Villanova v. Pitt Forum

[pjo]

I am from Central PA and have extensive legal contacts there (my step-dad is a lawyer in York):
All of these schools are very regional

Best placement by region:
Pitt=Pitt
Central PA (Carlisle/Harrisburg/York/Lancaster): Penn State (Carlisle campus has better internship/externship opportunities)
Philly: Penn, Temple, Villanova (in that order)

Once you get out of those regions...your job chances fall greatly.

I don't know... in many circles Temples does better than Penn in Philly.

Many Penn grads leave Philly for New York, etc.

yeah but thats just correlation. Just because not many Penn grads stay in Philly doesn't mean that Temple necessarily becomes the "better" school. Job stats just look that way because liek you said, not many Penn grads stay there.

and to the ppl talking about the "central PA market"...what is "central PA market"???? I mean carlisle, york and harrisburg don't exactly offer sizable firms or headquarters of companies at which one could do in-house. I mean I guess Vanguard Group is headquartered in Valley Forge, but still, let's not kid ourselves. The "central PA market" only consists of elder law/ T&E/personal injury.

You have more transactional work in Central PA for sure. Real Estate, wills, etc but there is still a decent amount of corporate work. In Harrisburg there are a lot of defense contractors so there is a decent amount of practice there. In York, you have the HQ of York barbell and York air conditioner (intl company). You also have about 50 major industrial firms in York/'burg that make everything from fire trucks to the impellers used in hydro-electric dams. Starting salary isn't great and it definitely helps to have local help breaking into the market but most attorneys i know who have been practicing 5+ years are clearing $150k+ which is a good bit compared to cost of living in York. 'burg pays more of course.

In the 'burg, you also have the state capital so lots of political/legislative based work and solos who do freelance work for Philly firms as they need local rep.

If that's true that's seriously good. Like really really good. I know a lot fo grads from Pitt this year that graduated and don't have jobs right now. I can only think of 2 that are making that much money that are still in their 20's (going on 30). The rest I know (probably 5 or 6) are making around 50-65k. Keep in mind these are all people in their twenties. I dont technically know how you're refering to 5+, bc obviously ppl that graduated like 20 years ago got cake jobs upon graduation. I know plenty of atty's that graduated from all of these schools in the 80's. Most got biglaw in Pittsburgh/Philly and now make btwn 150-275k/yr. --but thats totally different.

[beach_terror]

Temple and Villanova grads are on equal footing in Philly for jobs. Stop all this Temple > Villanova or Villanova > Temple stuff. Peer schools are peer schools.

[sdv]

The Penn argument has basically been covered, but just to reiterate, Penn shouldn't scare a person wanting to get a job in Philly any more than any other T14. yes, the Penn grad probably gets hired over the Temple grad if they have similar ties to the region, but so would anyone from Philly (or any city) who left to attend a top law school and wants to return to their home city. Penn places in Philly the way Michigan places in Detroit: sure, students from there can get jobs, but the vast majority of the students have no desire to stay in the region and shouldn't be considered a true "regional" school. A more extreme example would be "Harvard places great in Boston".

Also, apologies if I misrepresented the Philly law market, I was referring to the big firms for sure. There's certainly work to be had. I do want to stress, though, that all the regional schools (including Rutgers) place pretty much the same in the region - I'd caution against choosing one over another based on anything besides fit/feeling and cost.

But it sounds like you want to go to UConn so this whole conversation is probably moot.

[manbearwig]

Temple and Villanova grads are on equal footing in Philly for jobs. Stop all this Temple > Villanova or Villanova > Temple stuff. Peer schools are peer schools.

I think, though, it is important to note that tuition instate at Temple is $17,566. Out of state is $30,580. Tuition at Villanova is $36,690. If scholarship money isn't a part of the discussion, and considering that all other things are pretty equal, that right there is a pretty big factor. Equal footing for jobs, but half the debt (if not more due to COL) means a Temple grad could take a lower paying job right out of school if necessary.

[pjo]

SDV, having lived in both cities, which city, Philly or Pittsburgh do you think is eaier to find 1. A decent paying legal job. 2. easier to crack big law. (assuming one goes to Pitt-pittsburgh or Nova/Temple-Philly)

[snapdragon]

Cool, I've spawned some interesting discussion. It seems like consensus is pretty positive regarding Temple, though, which is good to know.

Let me throw another slight curve - while I'm not counting anything out, I don't think I'm headed for a career in biglaw. I'm more leaning towards PI, especially working in a DA or PD's office - another reason I'm trying to keep costs down. With that in mind, any recommendations change?

[snapdragon]

And one more - regarding in-state at Temple/Pitt, is it possible to gain in state at some point during school?

[manbearwig]

And one more - regarding in-state at Temple/Pitt, is it possible to gain in state at some point during school?

Here's Temple's page on gaining residency.

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I'd guess it's the same for Pitt because I think it's based on statewide guidelines.

Re: working in the DA's office, I think AJRESQ mentioned that Temple seems to have a good pipeline there. Also, lower costs are always a positive with public work.

[pjo]

Gaining in state in PA is difficult but not impossible. It's not something I would bank on though. As far as PI work, I'd have to say that the public defender's work is greater in Philly than Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh really isn't that big of a city. I just think if you're gonna be a PD, doing it in a big city like Philly/Chicago/NYC would be MUCH more interesting than it would be in a smaller city. Plus I think Temple would be a good "in" for that job in Philly. I would favor Temple over Nova for that job in particular though because I think you get maybe get a few internship hours in during the school year your 2L if you go to school actually in the city.

O and FWIW, you might want to watch "law abiding citizen". Jamie Foxx plays a DA in Philly, so it might interest you. Although it's totally irrelevant in helping you choose a law school haha.

[AJRESQ]

Cool, I've spawned some interesting discussion. It seems like consensus is pretty positive regarding Temple, though, which is good to know.

Let me throw another slight curve - while I'm not counting anything out, I don't think I'm headed for a career in biglaw. I'm more leaning towards PI, especially working in a DA or PD's office - another reason I'm trying to keep costs down. With that in mind, any recommendations change?

First off, in the legal field, PI means "personal injury", not "public interest.". For example, "We find defense work is more lucrative than PI work, so we refer our PI work out." If you say "PI" to a lawyer they're going to think you mean personal injury, as it's the common term used for it in the legal world. Just a heads up...

That said, Temple streamlines a lot of grads into the Philly DA's office. They have a great trial advocacy program, meaning you'll take classes that are geared towards trial skills after 1L. They also have a nasty Trial Advocacy Team. Temple grads who do the trial program, trial team, and show a demonstrated interest towards being a true trial lawyer are very competitive for the Philly DA. Philly DA is a great way to get started, and they're not as interested in grades as they are interest in prosecution and trial advocacy. Most of the ADAs I know were middle of the class but did a ton of trial work.

--LinkRemoved--

FYI, I interviewed with the Philly DA during OCI. Made it to the second round, but ended up doing something different. I went to school to be a prosecutor but changed my mind after 1L mostly based on the opportunities presented to me at OCI. Sometimes I regret not doing the DA, because it's hard to really develop trial skills (as opposed to writing and discovery) in civil litigation. A close friend of mine just left biglaw to do the PD.

PD's office is very very very hard to get into. A colleague of mine worked there all through law school and didn't get an offer. They're severely underfunded. If you don't care which side you are on, I'd go DA. It's easier to get into, and if you do the trial advocacy stuff at Temple you have a good shot.

Again, I say this as someone who loves 'Nova basketball and as someone with an undergraduate degree from Villanova... it's just not worth the money for law school. Unless you absolutely can't stand the idea of living in Philadelphia or taking the R-5 (train) to school, you'll have all the same opportunities at Temple Law as you would Villanova. So why pay extra? Is living on the main line for a few years worth $45k to you?

[xsoldier1911]

I chose Penn State over Temple, Villanova, and Drexel for a few reasons. They only offer $20G max, but I will be living in Carlisle for under $400 a month, that makes up for the difference. Carlisle is a very peaceful town, not as many distractions. It is only 20 miles from the state capital so there are many state and federal government externships available. The section size at Penn State is the smallest in the state, 45 (I counted only 35 students in the class I sat in on), 60 for Temple, 78 for Drexel, 82 for Pitt, 102 for Villanova. I also love the classrooms at Penn State, the $130 million was well spent, it is very technologically impressive.

Just another thing to realize about Penn State/Carlisle, is that if you do go to that campus, "peaceful town" means almost no night life whatsoever. There are like only three or four worthwhile bars in the whole town, and they're going to be packed with Dickinson College seniors every weekend. There really is not a lot to do around the area, except for maybe driving to Harrisburg (a sketchy ass city with like two streets worth of things to do).

And why in the world would you opt to live in greater Harrisburg when you could live on a Big Ten campus?

Why would I want to study law on a Big Ten campus when I can study it in a peaceful atmosphere only 20 miles from the State Capital, the center of law and government in my state? I would like to work for the government after law school, possibly starting my career in the Army JAG Corps. There is also a lot of history at the Carlisle campus, the school has been there since 1834!

[beach_terror]

Plus I think Temple would be a good "in" for that job in Philly. I would favor Temple over Nova for that job in particular though because I think you get maybe get a few internship hours in during the school year your 2L if you go to school actually in the city.

+1. Temple is actually in the city, plus Villanova is more of a business type law school.

[sdv]

SDV, having lived in both cities, which city, Philly or Pittsburgh do you think is eaier to find 1. A decent paying legal job. 2. easier to crack big law. (assuming one goes to Pitt-pittsburgh or Nova/Temple-Philly)

just to qualify, I'm certainly no expert on this subject, just someone who knows both cities well as cities. The easy answer to both is Philly, just because it's a bigger city, therefore there are more opportunities. With that said, there's MUCH less competition for entry level legal jobs in pittsburgh, basically as a Pitt grad you're competing against your classmates and that's about it. I cringe at speaking in ultimatums, but pretty much *all* Pittsburgh firms are very insular and prefer people with local ties, I think Philadelphia is similar though I'm not 100% on that.

I'd say the cities kind of have had an inverse reaction to the economy. In Philly, the biglaw firms seem to have suffered a lot, while the local firms have remained pretty much intact. Pittsburgh is a bit of the opposite, with local attorneys being laid off in some instances while the elite firms are hanging on. Pittsburgh has 2 of the top 15 or 20 firms in the NLJ 250, which is 2 more than it probably deserves to have considering its size. Even though K&L Gates is technically bigger, Reed Smith is the gold standard in the city and every lawyer (and lay person who knows even a little bit about the legal market) knows it; Reed Smith hired more Pitt grads than any other school, making Pitt the only non T14 school that appeared on that particular NLJ survey that came out earlier this year. Both cities will have people like me, trying to get back into the market after going to a national university elsewhere, but based on sheer numbers you'll have more of those in Philly than the 'Burgh.

The Philadelphia area also has a lot of specialized courts that both diversifies and complicates any employment stats coming from the city. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of bankruptcy law that goes on, with the bankruptcy court in the area, and there's a TON of corporate stuff that goes on in Delaware (the entire state is Philadelphia, as far as I'm concerned) because that's where all the big pharmaceutical companies are located. Overall, I'd say employment prospects are better in Philly, but I honestly think if you commit yourself to either one and prove in an interview you want to be in that particular city both should be attainable.

[03121202698008]

If that's true that's seriously good. Like really really good. I know a lot fo grads from Pitt this year that graduated and don't have jobs right now. I can only think of 2 that are making that much money that are still in their 20's (going on 30). The rest I know (probably 5 or 6) are making around 50-65k. Keep in mind these are all people in their twenties. I dont technically know how you're refering to 5+, bc obviously ppl that graduated like 20 years ago got cake jobs upon graduation. I know plenty of atty's that graduated from all of these schools in the 80's. Most got biglaw in Pittsburgh/Philly and now make btwn 150-275k/yr. --but thats totally different.

To clarify...I wouldn't go to central PA expecting that kind of $ but it's certainly possible. While I know a lot of attorneys through my parents...all have jobs or are in practice...and if they were bottom of the barrel I probably wouldn't know them. (My mom owns an abstratcing company so she does work for a ton of attorneys...but people barely scraping by don't pay someone else to do their title searches...they do them themselves to save money. Only those that have business to move onto pay someone else $150-175 for something that may take 15 minutes (though it may take 3 hours...luck of the draw).

[Joymin]

+1

[rs2004]

this is a really great thread. i had started a very similar thread but this one is way more information. having said that, on residency, it seems that it is easier to get PA residency from Pitt than from Temple. In fact, according to those in Temple Law now, OOS people are having a hard time getting residency after 1L. Getting residency from Pitt isn't a walk in the park either at least with Pitt, you show your ties to Pitt (voter registration, lease, state ID, etc) and you have a good shot, or if you get shot down, you can appeal. With Temple, you have to prove that you came to PA for non-education reasons to attain PA residency rates.