Best Law School for Criminal Law??? Forum

[kalvano]

In Texas, UT Austin School of Law and St Marys/San Antonio are very well regarded as criminal law programs.

Lulz at putting UT and St. Mary's in the same sentence with both in a positive light.

[Tanicius]

It is inaccurate to say that the best crim law schools are in the order of the T-14 and down. Depending upon what kind of crim law you want to do, this may depend instead on the quality of the clinics. Georgetown, NYU, and Michigan have amazing crim law clinics that will prepare you for the actual work far better than any curriculum. Don't discount the quality clinical and trial ad programs at schools outside of the T-14, either. This isn't biglaw, this isn't academia, and this isn't the prestigious government/NGO public service stuff. If you end up working for a mid-sized or smaller DA or PD's office, which the vast majority of them are, where you got your law degree doesn't matter even a fraction as much as your demonstrable skills and motivation. I'm not quite sure how the process works with private criminal defense firms, so it's possible the type of defense work you want to do at these firms (white collar vs. violent felony vs. misdemeanors) might depend on the ranking of your school.

[kalvano]

Criminal lawyers (no matter the side of the table) are pretty much defined by how much they win, not where their JD is from.

[Tanicius]

Criminal lawyers (no matter the side of the table) are pretty much defined by how much they win, not where their JD is from.

This is definitely true for crim defense attorneys who go into private practice after, say, a bunch of experience at a PD's office. But I don't know what the hiring process is for crim defense firms that hire fresh law grads, if they even do that all that often.

[deadpanic]

Have you ever done DUI defense? The clients are the absolute WORST...whiney, deep in denial, demanding...yuck. I HATE doing DUI. Give me a nice, straight cocaine sale or commercial burglar or employee embezzler or parking lot knifing any day. Criminals that have some sense of professionalism, you know?

Good shit, I lol'd.

[kalvano]

Criminal lawyers (no matter the side of the table) are pretty much defined by how much they win, not where their JD is from.

This is definitely true for crim defense attorneys who go into private practice after, say, a bunch of experience at a PD's office. But I don't know what the hiring process is for crim defense firms that hire fresh law grads, if they even do that all that often.

I believe the better firms tend to hire the superstars from the DA / PD offices. They don't want to waste effort on someone who can't hack it in court.

So whatever school gets you in to the office you want. If you want the Manhattan offices, you need a little more prestigious school than the one for Bumblefuck, Minnesota.

[Rand M.]

The general consensus is Yale is the best law school for (insert focus here). Some argue that Harvard is slightly better for (insert focus here). Either way, I don't think you can go wrong with Yale or Harvard.

This is actually the best answer to this question. Seriously OP, just go to the best school that will have you. It will open a lot more doors for you and the quality of instruction will largely be the same everywhere; if anything, it's better at the top anyways.

[vanwinkle]

Criminal lawyers (no matter the side of the table) are pretty much defined by how much they win, not where their JD is from.

This is definitely true for crim defense attorneys who go into private practice after, say, a bunch of experience at a PD's office. But I don't know what the hiring process is for crim defense firms that hire fresh law grads, if they even do that all that often.

I believe the better firms tend to hire the superstars from the DA / PD offices. They don't want to waste effort on someone who can't hack it in court.

So whatever school gets you in to the office you want. If you want the Manhattan offices, you need a little more prestigious school than the one for Bumblefuck, Minnesota.

Not only that, but if you're looking to jump to private practice later, the Manhattan experience will be seen as far more valuable than working in Bumblefuck, MN. Lawyers all over know the Manhattan lawyer likely had a higher case load and more high-stakes cases to deal with.

I can tell you from personal experience and conversations that in many NYC offices you don't even get an interview unless you're either from a T14 or working your ass off at a local T1/T2. That's true in other big cities as well. Big city work is competitive, and if you don't work in a place like that, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle to prove yourself if you want to jump to a highly profitable firm.

While I'm writing, I'll note that I think all T14s have criminal law clinics now, and many are adding things like innocence projects, death penalty clinics, and criminal law journals, if they don't have them already.

[Tanicius]

Yes... There is a gap between a small town in the Midwest and the largest legal market in the world. If you want to eventually work for a defense firm in LA, Chi, or NYC, you're better off putting your eggs in a T-14 so you can get that competitive DA's gig. But as for the other 99% of the crim law jobs out there, a great many of which aren't within sight of cows or tractors, you're probably better served at a combination of the highest school that gives you good scholarship money. You can rest assured that there is no shortage of case loads in any suburb/smaller city in this country, and there won't be for many, many years. Going sticker at a T-14 if your professional goal in life is to be a criminal defense attorney would be a mistake. You don't need to throw away $150,000+ for this kind of job unless you have something very selective in mind.

[vamedic03]

Yes... There is a gap between a small town in the Midwest and the largest legal market in the world. If you want to eventually work for a defense firm in LA, Chi, or NYC, you're better off putting your eggs in a T-14 so you can get that competitive DA's gig. But as for the other 99% of the crim law jobs out there, a great many of which aren't within sight of cows or tractors, you're probably better served at a combination of the highest school that gives you good scholarship money. You can rest assured that there is no shortage of case loads in any suburb/smaller city in this country, and there won't be for many, many years. Going sticker at a T-14 if your professional goal in life is to be a criminal defense attorney would be a mistake. You don't need to throw away $150,000+ for this kind of job unless you have something very selective in mind.

Go to a T-14 so you maintain your options. Maybe, after spending 1L summer in crim law, you find you don't like it. You'll have already closed doors if you chose a lower ranked school.

The truth of the matter is that if you choose to do small market criminal law, most of the T-14 LRAP's will protect you. Its quite likely that ALL of your loans will be covered.

Get the best possible legal education, do as well as possible during your first year, and keep as many doors open as possible.

[BeautifulSW]

One reason for starting your crim law career within sight of cows and silos is that you will quickly be handling serious felony work. Large city DAs and PDs usually specialize; you can spend five years prosecuting/defending DUI and shoplifting. I was prosecuting felony drug trafficking solo within 3 months of being admitted. That, of course, was on the New Mexican portion of the Great Plains.

Lots of cows and silos but you quickly learn whether you are cut out for jury work.

[vanwinkle]

Yes... There is a gap between a small town in the Midwest and the largest legal market in the world. If you want to eventually work for a defense firm in LA, Chi, or NYC, you're better off putting your eggs in a T-14 so you can get that competitive DA's gig. But as for the other 99% of the crim law jobs out there, a great many of which aren't within sight of cows or tractors, you're probably better served at a combination of the highest school that gives you good scholarship money. You can rest assured that there is no shortage of case loads in any suburb/smaller city in this country, and there won't be for many, many years. Going sticker at a T-14 if your professional goal in life is to be a criminal defense attorney would be a mistake. You don't need to throw away $150,000+ for this kind of job unless you have something very selective in mind.

1) I was simply responding to the existing conversation. People have brought up the desire to do big-city defense law firms, and I was (rather rightly) pointing out that the folks who will have an edge there have the big-city defense experience, and to get that the T14 will truly help. Yes, NYC is the largest legal market, but you'll see very similar in DC, Chicago, LA, and a number of other major cities. "Prestigious" criminal work, despite the low pay, is still highly competitive, and that's relevant here since it's that kind of work that most establishes you as someone a criminal defense firm would want.

2) It's ridiculous to refer to attending a T14 as "throwing away" $150K. Even a full scholarship (and I should know, since I declined several) will only cover tuition and fees, so you're still looking at the same $50-70K in COL between a T14 and smaller school in the same area. Plus, with IBR and the LRAPs at many T14s being redesigned to complement it, you can have the bulk of your loans paid for you. If you go to one of the T14s with the fully integrated plans (such as UVA's recently announced one) you'll never pay a dime.

3) As noted by another poster, the T14 gives you more employment options when you graduate. What if you try criminal law and decide you don't like it? This happens to a lot of people, and if you chose a low-ranked school specifically for the criminal law options it would give you when you graduated, you're kind of screwed. Similarly, if you decide "I want to practice criminal law, but not here," the T14 degree will help you do that. The lower-ranked school! Not so much.

I'm not trying to entirely tear down the lower ranked schools as options. I have friends building good careers from T2 schools and I'm glad they're accomplishing what they want to. But they went to those schools because they were the best schools they could get into, and they're making it work. I doubt any of them would have turned down a T14 if they could've gone, because with IBR and the power of the degree, the T14 degree is just much more worth it.

[lawschool2014]

I hear concord law school is the best for criminal law....

[Tanicius]

If you go to one of the T14s with the fully integrated plans (such as UVA's recently announced one) you'll never pay a dime.

Is this different from their LRAP? If it has I haven't heard about this. Have any links on hand?



Edit: Holy ****. http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/admissi ... /vlfp2.pdf

That is unbeatable by CCN and MVP. Wow. Potentially game changing in my consideration of whether to ED MVPCCN.

[n4866b]

Another "top school list"; supposedly done by taking the nations top lawyers then asking "where did they go to school"

(opposed to "hardest to get into" or "best LSAT score" or similar stuff lists that seem to be out there)

http://www.superlawyers.com/toplists/la ... ates/2009/

UT Texas out ranks Yale and is #3

[vanwinkle]

Another "top school list"; supposedly done by taking the nations top lawyers then asking "where did they go to school"

(opposed to "hardest to get into" or "best LSAT score" or similar stuff lists that seem to be out there)

http://www.superlawyers.com/toplists/la ... ates/2009/

UT Texas out ranks Yale and is #3

There's been other threads about this survey already. Short version: It's crap.

[vanwinkle]

If you go to one of the T14s with the fully integrated plans (such as UVA's recently announced one) you'll never pay a dime.

Is this different from their LRAP? If it has I haven't heard about this. Have any links on hand?

Edit: Holy ****. http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/admissi ... /vlfp2.pdf

That is unbeatable by CCN and MVP. Wow. Potentially game changing in my consideration of whether to ED MVPCCN.

Yeah, looks like you found the link yourself. That's a really killer program IMO, and entirely changes the whole "T14 or $$$" equation for PI folks. Other schools are making similar adjustments to their LRAP programs from what I understand, and this is quickly going to become the next big thing.

[The Brainalist]

Man you must hang with different lawyers than I do. The criminal DEFENSE lawyers I know are all making BANK. In fact of all of us, they make the most by far. But I agree with go to the cheapest school you can. And go where you want to work. Criminals don't ask where you got your JD, and crime victims don't care if you went to a T14 or not if you're a DA. Its far more likely if you go out of state for law school, even to a great school, and come back home to practice criminal defense that your clients will ask why you did not go to local school X and be more suspicious of your abilities than they will be impressed by your degree from a school they know nothing about. Criminal lawyers don't advertise they went to Cornel in Phoenix AZ and they don't tend to work in large firms (for obvious reasons if you have ever worked in criminal law).

You must not work with the number 1 top lawyer.

http://www.myharvardlawyer.us/eugene_action.html

[como]

Honestly, it depends on your career goals. If you want to be a DA, go the best regional school in the area you want to practice. It helps if you have ties to the area. If you want to do US Atty's office, you should go T10 and get great grades. It would probably help to do DOJ honors or white collar crim at a biglaw firm.

[3ThrowAway99]

You must not work with the number 1 top lawyer.

http://www.myharvardlawyer.us/eugene_action.html

Wow. Bonus points for counting the number of times the word Harvard is used in that ad.

[vamedic03]

Honestly, it depends on your career goals. If you want to be a DA, go the best regional school in the area you want to practice. It helps if you have ties to the area. If you want to do US Atty's office, you should go T10 and get great grades. It would probably help to do DOJ honors or white collar crim at a biglaw firm.

I think the problem with this strategy is that you close off doors if you think you want to be an ADA. I just don't think that someone can appreciate what that job is like before law school. For all you know, you might develop a fascination with financial crimes or, after a summer internship, find that being an ADA isn't your cup of tea. Go to a T10, if you can, and keep the doors open.

[como]

Honestly, it depends on your career goals. If you want to be a DA, go the best regional school in the area you want to practice. It helps if you have ties to the area. If you want to do US Atty's office, you should go T10 and get great grades. It would probably help to do DOJ honors or white collar crim at a biglaw firm.

I think the problem with this strategy is that you close off doors if you think you want to be an ADA. I just don't think that someone can appreciate what that job is like before law school. For all you know, you might develop a fascination with financial crimes or, after a summer internship, find that being an ADA isn't your cup of tea. Go to a T10, if you can, and keep the doors open.

I used to think that T10 is always the way to go, but I think that some people are already pretty set on certain goals. Many LSAT/GPA combos fall short of T10 acceptances, but will get people $$$ at regional schools. The regional route can be a very good choice ITE, but you have to be sure you want to be in that city.

[The Brainalist]

You must not work with the number 1 top lawyer.

http://www.myharvardlawyer.us/eugene_action.html

Wow. Bonus points for counting the number of times the word Harvard is used in that ad.

Ten if you count the url and the webpage title (Fresno Criminal Attorney / Harvard UCLA / Federal / Criminal).

Is there some form of special harvard strain of rickets?

And for the record, I don't think Yale would be the best for criminal law. You'd want clinical experience and access to public defender/DA/US Attorney internships in a major city. You don't go to Yale for those things. I think Leiter may have pointed to NYU and GULC in his interview on TLS (Edit: he said Penn and UT, but not for clinical - which is what I was talking about).

[270910]

And for the record, I don't think Yale would be the best for criminal law. You'd want clinical experience and access to public defender/DA/US Attorney internships in a major city. You don't go to Yale for those things. I think Leiter may have pointed to NYU and GULC in his interview on TLS (Edit: he said Penn and UT, but not for clinical - which is what I was talking about).

If you want to be the public defender in your home town in Kansas, Yale likely isn't necessary. But if you want to do "criminal law" of fucking course Yale is the best. Best chances at clerkships, prestigious white collar firms, AUSA gigs after those clerkships, tours of duty with the DoJ, etc.

Some people have more particular career goals that make law school other than Yale a prudent choice, but merely being interested in criminal law is not such a career goal.

[BeautifulSW]

Interesting comment. I wonder if there really is such a thing as a "prestigious white-collar firm"? Big, and even medium sized commercial firms don't usually do criminal defense. They usually farm out their clients' kids' brushes with the law. There are a couple of reasons for this; you really don't want your commerical bankster clients waltzing through a waiting room filled with gold-chained cocaine dealers and pimps. Bad for business. Second, if you aren't doing criminal defense regularly, you probably aren't competent to handle anything beyond a non-DUI traffic citation. If your corporate clients find themselves facing really serious stuff like environmental crimes or anti-trust accusations, you shouldn't handle that, either, because there's a good chance you will be charged as well or at least be subpoena'd to testify. You need some distance. Even if you aren't implicated, there will be conflicts of interest all over the landscape between the corporate officers themselves and with the corporation...that sort of thing.

Out here, the federal PD and AUSA hire without much regard to one's law school. Again, though, class rank matters a lot. Top third minimum. I have no idea, of course, how it is elsewhere in the country.