Did I make the wrong choice? Forum

[D Brooks]

Here's something else people who aren't lazy do. Check data!

--LinkRemoved--

Apparently, 60% of ND grads go to law firms, 15% go to clerkships, and w/ 70% of private sector grads reporting, median salary is $150k. It's not a license to print money, but I wouldn't call that "bleak," by any means.

Copy and paste. Info wasn't showing up.

ND is still not a good investment ITE.

[MrKappus]

Here's something else people who aren't lazy do. Check data!

--LinkRemoved--

Apparently, 60% of ND grads go to law firms, 15% go to clerkships, and w/ 70% of private sector grads reporting, median salary is $150k. It's not a license to print money, but I wouldn't call that "bleak," by any means.

Copy and paste. Info wasn't showing up.

ND is still not a good investment ITE.

It's a link to a spreadsheet...the data's in there. Again, you are not basing your posts on anything other than your opinion. Find data that says ND is a poor investment, and maybe ppl will take you seriously. I find data that says when 70% of 60% of the class report their salary, the median's 150k. Even if you assumed that the top 70% reported, that still puts the median relatively close to the 25th %ile (~$125). That's not bleak, and a bunch of people chanting "Huuurrrrrr ND is TTT" on TLS doesn't change that fact.

[im_blue]

Here's something else people who aren't lazy do. Check data!

--LinkRemoved--

Apparently, 60% of ND grads go to law firms, 15% go to clerkships, and w/ 70% of private sector grads reporting, median salary is $150k. It's not a license to print money, but I wouldn't call that "bleak," by any means.

Copy and paste. Info wasn't showing up.

ND is still not a good investment ITE.

It's a link to a spreadsheet...the data's in there. Again, you are not basing your posts on anything other than your opinion. Find data that says ND is a poor investment, and maybe ppl will take you seriously. I find data that says when 70% of 60% of the class report their salary, the median's 150k. Even if you assumed that the top 70% reported, that still puts the median relatively close to the 25th %ile (~$125). That's not bleak, and a bunch of people chanting "Huuurrrrrr ND is TTT" on TLS doesn't change that fact.

Your linked data show that 70% x 60% x 50% = 21% of the ND graduates got 150k+ back in 2008, which is 5 years earlier than the current class's graduation year. In comparison, lower T14s were placing about 70-80% of their class into biglaw in 2008. ITE, I sure as hell would call ND's prospects bleak, since lower T14s are barely placing half their class into biglaw.

[lawls]

I think we need more info. First off, how is it that you'll graduate with no debt?

[legalease9]

I can't really assess whether you made the right choice, but ignore anyone who says "if you arent 100% positive you made the right choice about what school you are going to... then you made the wrong choice". People always have doubts and "what if?" moments after making a big decision, and the presence of doubts and self-questioning does not mean that those doubts are accurate. Also, everyone on TLS is an enormous rankings/prestige whore, which leads to some predictable one-size-fits-all advice that is not very useful.

This! Very few people can just "let it go" once they've made a decision, even if its the best decision. To say that second thoughts mean a bad/premature decision is just not how most people's mind works (especially lawyers).

[romothesavior]

Notre Dame seemed like a good choice because of its national placement/name recognition and the "alumni network" I kept hearing about. I was otherwise unimpressed with ND: I'm not religious, not a "rah-rah" type college fan, and I would much rather be in a city/somewhere with good weather.

It sounds like you let the rancid ND trolls on TLS get to you. I would have probably taken Vandy if I were in your shoes, or maybe even GULC.

On the other hand, second-guessing is normal. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't second-guess my decision. But if you aren't interested in the school in the first place and you aren't content with working in the Midwest (and likely missing biglaw altogether), then I'd say reapply next year. Do not go in thinking you will transfer.

[crazyeddie]

You're in a pretty good spot relative to most 0L's at this point. Relax and enjoy your summer before law school. If you do well at ND, then you will have plenty of good options available to you.

Stop beating yourself up. You made a decision and its not a bad one. Now go kick ass at ND!!

[shmoo597]

Its not too late to back out.

As a rising 2L at a low t14 (at the top of my class too), I can't tell you how terrible the legal market is for biglaw. 30-40% at my school got jobs through OCI last year. It was a bloodbath.

The people who say the t20-30 are getting hit the worst are correct. Those schools all did well when the economy was good, but arent placing anyone in biglaw today. I would wait and apply next year, and if you get the chance to go to GULC again, take it.

[expat17]

EDIT

[let/them/eat/cake]

OP - I made the exact same decision. ND with 28k / year over sticker at Texas, UCLA, Cornell, GW, GULC ... something about the economic climate also persuaded me to take the money and run. I am so nervous / second guessing my decision, that I consider dropping out since I have a stable and interesting career path at the moment anyways.

This is what I think it comes down to though: can you live with yourself without a law degree, or do you know you will definitely need to get one at some point? Though the scholly doesn't mean we're "debt free," it does mean that we are getting a JD from a T25 school, and with a little luck (and help from parents/other sources), we can graduate with 60k debt instead of 200k. Forget what TLS-ers say about rankings - yes, the legal market is saturated. yes, there are too many lawyers. yes, the traditional law firm model will change. BUT, there will always be a lucrative place for someone who knows their shit, can handle social situations, and went to a T25 school. It's not like we're talking T4. Plus, there will be opportunities that finishing top of your class at ND will provide you with that finishing median at GULC will not (though this is not guaranteed, it can be used as an illustrative),

Anyways, this is just my two cents. And rationalization. I leave the floor open for everyone else to comment / criticize now ... we can both still withdraw!

i underlined that to provide an illustrative of a stupid sentence based on stupid assumptions. Stupid.

[doomed123]

we can graduate with 60k debt instead of 200k.

I really don't get this. In your case, it's an $84k scholarship; in the OP's, it's a $60k scholarship. So how does it make a $140k difference in either case? If you're assuming that "help from parents/other sources" will make up the difference, why would that only apply when attending ND? Did your parents say, "I'll only help if you go to the lower ranked school. If you choose a T14, you're on your own!" ...?

And I still don't understand the OP's assertion that $20k/year = debt free.

Sure, it's a nice scholarship, but I'm not sure it's enough to make up for the decreased job prospects in this case. Schools in ND's range have been hit especially hard, and ND's remote location seems to have made their situation even worse. Firms just aren't bothering to travel to South Bend for a T25 ITE.

[northwood]

as for job prospects.. I would recommend going to a school in the area in which you want to practice in. You cannot guarentee that a firm will travel cross country just because you are in a similarly ranked firm. If you are okay or better at practicing in the mid west, then ND is a good decision. If you want to practice on either coast, then I would re-consider ND. ( You can only guarentee on graduation, and the amount of debt that you inherit- job prospecting is going to be based on you and your abilities- not OCI or anything similar)

If you want to be a lawyer, then go to law school. IF you have to wait one more year and re-take the LSAT,,, then do it. YOu would only be postponing law school for 13 months. ( not really that long of a time)

[wadeny]

ND has always had a great reputation, but I also heard how OCI was awful there last year. OP, I would really consider your decision to attend over the next weeks - you can still back out if you haven't signed the promissory notes for your loans. I mean, your scholarship is nice, but if it were me, I don't think I would attend ITE at that price.

Edit: Also, never depend on transferring out. If you already are thinking about transferring before even showing up, I think that says something about your confidence in your decision.

[lonerightly]

60k total is not very much for a school like ND in any economy. You should have gone to Vandy cause outside the t-13 your best chance is probably Vandy. Plus, the likelihood of being employed+ibr outweighs any money that ND gave you outside of maybe 40k per year. Get out while you still can man. Also read Edgarby's posts.

[Bankhead]

I would have taken Vandy/GULC (GULC) in a heartbeat. I'm a 2L at a T30 and I know how bad it gets.

1. Income based repayment.
2. JD stays with you for life.
3. Chances are you will not do well enough to transfer.

[olanderp]

Withdraw, and reapply.

[northwood]

are you happy with ND? If so, then go. If you have serious second thoughts about ND, then withdraw, save your money and re assess where you will be happy working. ( YOu cant assume that your school's OCI will allow you to gain employment or interview anywhere in the USA) Except for a very select few ( top 10 at most) all schools should be assumed to be regional schools ITE. ITs a very big gamble to assume otherwise, and more than likely you will be at median in law school.

Sounds like you need a strong drink or 2 and a piece of paper to seriously weigh how ND or any other law school that you are considering is the best option for your future dreams and desiers

[bizen boat]

Taking advice from people on the internet is the wrong choice. That said, this person on the internet got a great scholarship (25k/year) to a great school (BC) and even did well first year (top 15-20%). I was able to transfer because I did REALLY well first semester and Chicago has a swell ED program. I know if I had stayed at BC there is little possibility I'd get a good job. BC's OCI is better than ND's this year and all years I believe, but it's still not good enough that someone with no connections to Boston is getting hired with only top 15-20% grades.

It's not too late to withdraw. I'm sure you've put a bit of money down on seat deposits and whatnot, but that's chump change compared with even 60k in debt. Even though I was able to transfer to my dream school, I still think attending law school was a poor decision overall. Please don't do it.

Having said that, I don't think ND with some money is significantly worse than GULC with nothing, so if you're dead set on ruining your life and going to law school, might as well do it in beautiful South Bend.

[vatech11]

I chose, with assistance from this very board, to attend Notre Dame in the fall with a 20k/year scholarship. I chose this over small scholarships at GW and WashU, and sticker at Vandy and Georgetown. My rationale was that it seemed like all of these schools were struggling ITE and I would much rather be stuck looking for a job with no debt than with six-figure debt. I thought about getting some WE and reapplying, but because I am a low-GPA splitter, job opportunities were minimal. Notre Dame seemed like a good choice because of its national placement/name recognition and the "alumni network" I kept hearing about. I was otherwise unimpressed with ND: I'm not religious, not a "rah-rah" type college fan, and I would much rather be in a city/somewhere with good weather.

After seeing ND's OCI figures it seems like they were hit especially hard. Was my decision stupid? At this point, it seems like my best option (long-shot at best, I know) is to crush 1L year and transfer out.

Edit: poll added.

And you want to be my Latex salesman!

I don't think you made a mistake at all

[macunaima]

I can't really assess whether you made the right choice, but ignore anyone who says "if you arent 100% positive you made the right choice about what school you are going to... then you made the wrong choice". People always have doubts and "what if?" moments after making a big decision, and the presence of doubts and self-questioning does not mean that those doubts are accurate. Also, everyone on TLS is an enormous rankings/prestige whore, which leads to some predictable one-size-fits-all advice that is not very useful.

I second this.

[Borhas]

I chose, with assistance from this very board, to attend Notre Dame in the fall with a 20k/year scholarship. I chose this over small scholarships at GW and WashU, and sticker at Vandy and Georgetown. My rationale was that it seemed like all of these schools were struggling ITE and I would much rather be stuck looking for a job with no debt than with six-figure debt. I thought about getting some WE and reapplying, but because I am a low-GPA splitter, job opportunities were minimal. Notre Dame seemed like a good choice because of its national placement/name recognition and the "alumni network" I kept hearing about. I was otherwise unimpressed with ND: I'm not religious, not a "rah-rah" type college fan, and I would much rather be in a city/somewhere with good weather.

After seeing ND's OCI figures it seems like they were hit especially hard. Was my decision stupid? At this point, it seems like my best option (long-shot at best, I know) is to crush 1L year and transfer out.

Edit: poll added.

I would have said go to Vandy

[Kswizzie]

As a rule for me if I feel like I couldn't write a compelling why...(school)? essay with relative ease then I don't apply.

[northwood]

If you are really worried about debt why dont you apply heavily to all schools in the region or 2 where you want to work? You will have schools from all tiers represented, you have an easy time writing a why school essay, and you know that whatever school gives you the best deal ( either money, prestigue in the region, or the best combination of the two) is the "right" school for you. Plus, you will have the best opportunity to network on your own in addition to OCI and the career service ( if they arent totally worthless) that your school offeres. School ranking shouldnt be the end all be all in this decision making process, you should have a set of various criteria for each school to meet.

( Yes you might have to spend more money and time on applications, but in the end, you will be making a more informed decision about where to go to school, and have a better chance at being successful in matching your dreams to your actual job search

[20160810]

I would have taken Vandy/GULC (GULC) in a heartbeat. I'm a 2L at a T30 and I know how bad it gets.

1. Income based repayment.
2. JD stays with you for life.
3. Chances are you will not do well enough to transfer.

I am also a 2L at a T30, and this post is on the money.