Widener or Touro? Forum

[bleanza]

Nick,

I got a 153, and was stuck in that area for a while before the test. there were some medical and family issues that really impeded my progress. I know, excuses excuses. I know it may be counterintuitive, but I really do believe I can excel in law school, despite underachieving on the LSAT. Strictly paced tests don't seem to mix well with students with A.D.D. But I've never had a problem with subjects that interest me, and the law is definitely one of those.

BK. It certainly felt like my LSAT speed was just about maxed out. Honestly the LSAT was just a bad experience for me that I'd rather not revisit if possible. But the consensus seems to be that this would be unwise..lol

[Grizz]

But I've never had a problem with subjects that interest me, and the law is definitely one of those.

You realize that your performance is contingent on everyone else's thanks to the curve, right?

[cartercl]

Merichard, you're right. I know everything I'm proposing is somewhat dangerous. I'm just trying to looks down every possible path and find the best way to improve a bad situation.

Your propositions indicate that you are very misinformed and/or naive. And that's very dangerous.

Gotta give some tough love here. You're not looking for the best way to improve your situation, you're looking for the easiest way. The best way would be to actually study hard for the LSAT this time and overcome your difficulties. People have timing issues when they first begin studying for the LSAT. But if you haven't taken enough PTs to become acclimated to the timing, then it does not seem as if you adequately prepared.

You going to a T4 does not concern me. You settling for a T4 at sticker (which it seems as if you are doing) does, however.

[BaiAilian2013]

I also understand that government positions still want people from better schools, but my network is rather strong in this area, to the point that I'm willing to bank on getting something in this area even if there are candidates from better schools. I'm not trying to sounds pretentious, the reality is just that one of these jobs will likely be available for me when I graduate, and I may not encounter the employment issues that most widener or touro grads might be expected to experience.

you: what are job prospects like out of Widener vs. Touro?
TSL: job prospects completely suck at both schools.
you: ah, but my connections all but guarantee me a job upon graduation.

...am I missing something here??

[AJRESQ]

The Philadelphia District Attorney and Wilmington Attorney General's office hired way more Widener grads than it did Harvard grads last year. Where do you people come up with this stuff? Call the Philly DA and ask where the majority of their new hires came from last year. I'll save you the suspense -- Villanova, Rutgers, Temple, and Widener. Do you think they suddenly started recruiting from Yale?

As for LSAT / law school exams... the LSAT tests quantitative information. There is only one right answer to an LSAT question. However, most law school exams test qualitative information -- it's not so much about the "right answer" as it is spotting the issue, analyzing the facts, applying the law correctly, considering the counter-arguments, and then making a determination as to what is more persuasive. There are often many "right" answers to a law school exam. The LSAT has nothing to do with law school exams. I'm not sure why the LSAT is a prerequisite to getting into law school, but it is. (well, I'm sure LSAC likes the money, and they continue to fund studies to justify their existence. Just like the MBE.) That was the funny thing first year -- a lot of super students lost their scholarships (earned by a high LSAT score) while a lot of average or reach candidates earned scholarships by virtue of their first year grades. Doing well your first year has little to do with the LSAT. You might not want to hear that, but it's the truth... I don't care what kind of garbage LSAC is trying to sell you.

[Nicholasnickynic]

The Philadelphia District Attorney and Wilmington Attorney General's office hired way more Widener grads than it did Harvard grads last year.

You realize that this is a worthless statement that in no way proves your point.

If no one from harvard applied there, there would be 0 harvard grads.

If 20 people from weidner applied but the P DA only took one that was at the top of his class, there would be 1 wiedner grad.

So more wiedner than harvard grads working there.

This does not mean that going to weidner is a good idea (unless perhaps you can get LR. And i think we can all agree that going to a school where you must be in the top 10% to get a job is NOT a good idea).

[Nicholasnickynic]

Furthermore, you always talk about hiring t3 and t4 grads.

When you do so, are you getting them from median?

[Grizz]

you: what are job prospects like out of Widener vs. Touro?
TSL: job prospects completely suck at both schools.
you: ah, but my connections all but guarantee me a job upon graduation.

...am I missing something here??

I also understand that government positions still want people from better schools, but my network is rather strong in this area, to the point that I'm willing to bank on getting something in this area even if there are candidates from better schools. I'm not trying to sounds pretentious, the reality is just that one of these jobs will likely be available for me when I graduate, and I may not encounter the employment issues that most widener or touro grads might be expected to experience.

3 years is a lot of uncertainty.

[cartercl]

The Philadelphia District Attorney and Wilmington Attorney General's office hired way more Widener grads than it did Harvard grads last year. Where do you people come up with this stuff? Call the Philly DA and ask where the majority of their new hires came from last year. I'll save you the suspense -- Villanova, Rutgers, Temple, and Widener. Do you think they suddenly started recruiting from Yale?

As for LSAT / law school exams... the LSAT tests quantitative information. There is only one right answer to an LSAT question. However, most law school exams test qualitative information -- it's not so much about the "right answer" as it is spotting the issue, analyzing the facts, applying the law correctly, considering the counter-arguments, and then making a determination as to what is more persuasive. There are often many "right" answers to a law school exam. The LSAT has nothing to do with law school exams. I'm not sure why the LSAT is a prerequisite to getting into law school, but it is. (well, I'm sure LSAC likes the money, and they continue to fund studies to justify their existence. Just like the MBE.) That was the funny thing first year -- a lot of super students lost their scholarships (earned by a high LSAT score) while a lot of average or reach candidates earned scholarships by virtue of their first year grades. Doing well your first year has little to do with the LSAT. You might not want to hear that, but it's the truth... I don't care what kind of garbage LSAC is trying to sell you.

Career advice from 0Ls... oh boy. I remember when an old attorney I knew said "hell is a courtroom run by law students." Now I get it, years later.

Yeah, I once turned down solid advice from a person advocating AIDS awareness because she didn't have AIDS. So I know exactly what you mean.

First of all, what does recruiting from Harvard or Yale have to do with anything here? Nothing.

Secondly, what are you trying to say? What's your point? That just because the majority of news hires came from Villanova, Temple, Rutgers, and Widener that OP will be fine coming from Widener? You also fail to account for the fact that the majority of the new hires from the group you just mentioned most likely come from the first 3 schools, not Widener. That means that of the legal jobs available in those areas only a very small percentage of those jobs are going to a very small percentage of Widener grads.

[bk1]

BK. It certainly felt like my LSAT speed was just about maxed out. Honestly the LSAT was just a bad experience for me that I'd rather not revisit if possible. But the consensus seems to be that this would be unwise..lol

How much you dislike taking the LSAT should not be a factor in whether you retake or not.

It is much easier to predictably increase your LSAT score than it is to get 1L grades (which are much more of a gamble, including monetarily).

[AJRESQ]

The Philadelphia District Attorney and Wilmington Attorney General's office hired way more Widener grads than it did Harvard grads last year.

You realize that this is a worthless statement that in no way proves your point.

If no one from harvard applied there, there would be 0 harvard grads.

If 20 people from weidner applied but the P DA only took one that was at the top of his class, there would be 1 wiedner grad.

So more wiedner than harvard grads working there.

This does not mean that going to weidner is a good idea (unless perhaps you can get LR. And i think we can all agree that going to a school where you must be in the top 10% to get a job is NOT a good idea).

If his goal is to work for as a local Philadelphia prosecutor, I don't see what the problem is.

If his goal is to be a Supreme Court justice, partner at Skadden Arps, federal clerkship, or a federal prosecutor it's not such a good idea. In fact, it's a very bad idea.

However, he said his goal is prosecution. If he doesn't mind working in the Philadelphia area, that is a conceivable goal from Widener. Now, a T4 in a place like NYC or DC probably would limit that from what I understand. But I've never practiced in those areas so I have no idea. I just know my own local market. There are Widener grads everywhere in the local area.

[Grizz]

However, he said his goal is prosecution. If he doesn't mind working in the Philadelphia area, that is a conceivable goal from Widener. Now, a T4 in a place like NYC or DC probably would limit that from what I understand. But I've never practiced in those areas so I have no idea. I just know my own local market. There are Widener grads everywhere in the local area.

Even knowing this, sticker is bad.

[eagles86]

I'd actually consider what AJRESQ has to say, he is an actual practicing attorney who I'm sure knows more than 99% of posters on this site. Of course neither school is highly ranked but Touro is way behind everything in the saturated NY market. Theres a reason everyone complaining on JDUnderground is from NY, Chicago or DC...the T2 and lower schools are so far behind the rest.
I do find it interesting that people here trash top schools in their market (like Miami where I'm headed, and places like cincinnati, houston etc). You see very little JDU complaining from grads at these schools though. Also, not everyone is dying to work in biglaw as the quality of life is awful at many firms.

[Grizz]

I do find it interesting that people here trash top schools in their market (like Miami where I'm headed, and places like cincinnati, houston etc).

UF > or = Miami bro, I will say it every time. Didn't say it wasn't worth going to either, just not without a lot of money.

Houston is not really the top school in the market either, as lots of Texas grads want to work there.

You see very little JDU complaining from grads at these schools though.

Maybe they're screwed, but don't post on JDU. Or maybe they're not screwed. We could go either way. Though I would agree that the economy seems worse in desirable markets (NY and DC, for example).

Also, not everyone is dying to work in biglaw as the quality of life is awful at many firms.

Right, but biglaw and Article III clerkship placement provides a decent approximation of prestige/placement power

[merichard87]

I am from Houston and strongly advocate going to UH if you for certain want to stay in Houston BUT the school that would give one the most mobility throughout Texas is UT and anyone who tells you not to go to a school that gives you more mobility is an idiot.

And I agree with the poster about the local Prosecutor's Office and DA. I'm not claiming to be an expert but I would imagine alot of those numbers are due to self selection rather than a true representation of one's chances from those schools.

[eagles86]

I know UF has more mobility throughout the state of FL, Miami is generally for south florida. That said, Florida is a very large state so any of its top 100 schools can be decent. Of course Miami has many schools but competing with nova, barry, fiu, st thomas isnt quite like going to seton hall (or touro) and competing with columbia, nyu, fordham and so on.

[acharyainc]

Hey OP: With all due respect, get real about the situation you're putting yourself in.

First, consider it this way. Widener vs. Temple vs. Rutgers vs. Nova vs. UPenn and Touro vs. Hofstra v Rutgers Newark vs Seton Hall vs NYU vs Columbia...in this economy, with the legal field as competitive as it is, do you really think you have a shot at getting a job if you graduate from either school? Regardless of region and what your grades were, you're not getting a paycheck for a long time after graduating. In fact, one of my close friends just graduated Widener. She will be an unpaid intern at the Bar Office of London. I have a cousin who graduated from Touro a few years ago (in the boom years) and is trying to keep her solo practice going by charging everything on her AMEX.

Second, if you're so confident you can prove yourself as an attorney, why can't you prove yourself through the LSAT? It might be an annoying test but its a lot easier doing good as a test-taker than an attorney.

We might be harsh but thats only because it doesn't seem like you have your eyes open just yet.

[romothesavior]

A challenger to "Nova Southeastern or Barry Law" emerges?

[Grizz]

A challenger to "Nova Southeastern or Barry Law" emerges?

Nahhh NvB was more absurd than this in the first 2 pages.

[r6_philly]

Widener is as bad as its ranking would suggest being the only law school in DE and the fact that no one wants to work in Wilmington and elsewhere in DE (this goes beyond legal market). I don't think you will find top firm jobs easily but job prospects are as bad as you would think. Ok maybe maybe making $50-60k isn't that great to a TLS prospect, but it's ok. Everyone also needs to consider what is the present earning potential of OP, and if going to said TTT schools could improve that bottom line. Everything is relative, someone who is seriously looking at Widener is probably not doing that great right now (I know from experience because I went to UG down the street and I know lots of Widener grads, including family members), and going there may provide some improvement. Of course it may not, but that's a risk that OP needs to assess himself.

I do know that there are many Widener grads working in local government and in the local communities. You just have to have the right expectations going in.

[northwood]

OP: you need to learn how to work and thrive under timed and stressful conditions to be successful in both law school and practicing law. IF you are having trouble with this, then re take the lsat or go to school when you have learned time and stress management techniques. Making excuses wont cut it.

HOWEVER:


IF you have to go to law school this fall, and you have to pick between these two schools here are some suggestions:

Make sure that you know what the prospects for each school in regards to hiring trends, and what firms agencies in your area have to say about each school. Also: plan on going to school and finishing around median. IF you are going to go to school and transfer, that is a gamble that wont likely pan out. Make sure you understand what you are getting youself into before you committ 100k plus.

IF all else fails, and you still cannot decide: take a year off, audit a couple classes at both, talk to students, see the nightlife and make your decision in march 2011.