With a full scholarship - how far down USNWR would you go? Forum

[fwaam]

My view on this question is changing, as it now seems like a lot of T2's are 50/50 propositions of getting ANY job.

Maybe UNLV?

You could make an argument that it's Hastings. Hell, you could make an argument that its BC.

So? My liberal arts BA qualifies me to work minimum-wage retail jobs. I might be able to find work as a bank teller or a receptionist, if I really tried, but that's about as good as it gets right now.

Yes, it's a contrived example, because if I only got into the local TTT or TTTT, but had a full ride, waiting a year and reapplying to higher-ranked schools might be my best option. But barring that.... yeah it's hard finding a job out of lower-tier law schools, but if you can afford to pay living expenses, and especially if the TTT or TTTT places well in its market, it's not necessarily a bad call. I know a guy who graduated from Cooley and is now a partner at his small law firm. It's not the dream job of most people on this site, no, but he's working as a lawyer and he has a solid middle-class lifestyle. I'd take that over spending the next three years working at Starbucks any day.

[TCScrutinizer]

With a full ride--possibly around 70-80.

[DerrickRose]

My view on this question is changing, as it now seems like a lot of T2's are 50/50 propositions of getting ANY job.

Maybe UNLV?

You could make an argument that it's Hastings. Hell, you could make an argument that its BC.

I know a guy who graduated from Cooley and is now a partner at his small law firm.

He's one of a very low percentage Cooley grads who actually have a JD-required legal industry job.

If you aren't going to get such a job, then the 3 years of living expenses + opportunity cost are killer.

I wouldn't take that chance for a 50/50 (or lower in Cooley's case) proposition.

[vanwinkle]

Really, there are people on here who just wouldn't go to law school if somehow their only acceptances were at schools ranked 20-30, even if those schools offered full rides?

If you have that little interest in being a lawyer, why go to law school at all?

Being a lawyer requires more than just going to law school. It also requires finding legal employment when you graduate. If you can't get that from a low-ranked school, why go there?

I'd draw the line lower than #30 myself, but I understand the sentiment.

[rayiner]

T12 + Vandy/UCLA.

[malfurion]

I'd probably draw the line at 42-ish for the most part. I'd go to Hastings or Arizona for free rather than not go to law school at all. There are a couple schools below that which I'd probably take as well, like Lewis and Clark or Vermont, because if I did really well first year I'd have the chance at getting a really cool enviro law job and if not I could just drop out. There are also several schools ranked above 42 that I wouldn't go to because I couldn't stand three years in the location.

I'm not really as elitist as the above makes me sound. It's just that I'm giving up an engineering career to go to law school, so it's not worth it for me unless the school is going to allow me a good chance at finding a more fulfilling career. Even if it doesn't cost me anything out-of-pocket, three years is a huge opportunity cost and I don't want to risk doing it just to find myself with a job that sucks as much as all the ones I've had so far.

[ozarkhack]

UA-Little Rock.

So ... 100+

[fwaam]

Really, there are people on here who just wouldn't go to law school if somehow their only acceptances were at schools ranked 20-30, even if those schools offered full rides?

If you have that little interest in being a lawyer, why go to law school at all?

Being a lawyer requires more than just going to law school. It also requires finding legal employment when you graduate. If you can't get that from a low-ranked school, why go there?

I'd draw the line lower than #30 myself, but I understand the sentiment.

There's a lot of doom-and-gloom on TLS about this. People from lower-tier schools can get legal jobs, or no one would go. You have to do well at the school, and you have to do your own legwork, and you may have to work a crappy job for the first few years, and if you don't have connections/aren't likable, you may be out of luck. But it's doable.

I certainly understand not wanting to take the risk if you're already qualified for some type of professional employment though. I'm not, and I happen to be friends with a Cooley grad who would hire me if worst came to worst. Still, this is all hypothetical--in real life I turned down a full ride at the local T2, and near-full rides at several T1s.

[acdisagod]

Really, there are people on here who just wouldn't go to law school if somehow their only acceptances were at schools ranked 20-30, even if those schools offered full rides?

If you have that little interest in being a lawyer, why go to law school at all?

lol beat me to it

The reason I would be hesitant to go to a T3 or a T4 with a full ride is a large percentage of graduates from these schools will not even get a job as a lawyer. There are 30,000 legal jobs out there this year for 43,000 graduates. That means that there are 13,000 people who may have just waisted three years of their life. I would rather just use by political science degree and make 30k and work my way up doing something interesting than waste three years, not get a salary for three years and then not be able to practice law when I'm done. Or, if I am able to get a job as a lawyer, it may turn out to be a shit law job that I have no interest in.

Certain T3 and T4 are probably worth it on a full ride, others aren't.

[vanwinkle]

There's a lot of doom-and-gloom on TLS about this. People from lower-tier schools can get legal jobs, or no one would go. You have to do well at the school, and you have to do your own legwork, and you may have to work a crappy job for the first few years, and if you don't have connections/aren't likable, you may be out of luck. But it's doable.

Even crappy jobs are real hard to come by right now. The economy sucks and the market is saturated with laid-off lawyers desperate to take anything. The place I'm interning this summer is still taking summer interns, but not hiring any new people for the next year or two because they're getting volunteers who are living off BigLaw deferrals and need something to do. It's hard to find anything out there right now.

In the last couple years there have been lots of talk about folks making top 10% and LR at T2 and even lower T1 schools and not being able to find jobs. I'm at a T14 and I've watched some of my classmates really struggle to find summer employment, even unpaid internships, in their home region. Things have gotten remarkably difficult, and people continue to go because they see those few who are still able to succeed and they think they can be one of those few. The problem is that when everyone believes they're one of a special few, a vast majority of them are going to be disappointed in a terrible way.

Things are bad right now. People underestimate how bad things are and overestimate their own potential for success, and that's why they keep going to low-ranked schools despite the odds being terribly stacked against them.

[lawhawk]

UGA. although if I got one from UF I would really consider it.

[lawrookie]

Lots of people do. Why not? If its free? Besides if the cooley students are "dumb" as people say, wouldnt that make the curve in your favor more than if you went someplace that you barely got in and everyone was smarter than you?

Vanderbilt? I passed on a full ride from a T1 school in my region to attend Duke with a half scholarship, so I guess that's the line for me.

Well, that wasn't really the question. I don't want you to consider other offers. I mean, at what point would you not go to law school at all, versus going to a school with a full ride. I.e., would you go to Cooley with a full ride?

[fwaam]

Really, there are people on here who just wouldn't go to law school if somehow their only acceptances were at schools ranked 20-30, even if those schools offered full rides?

If you have that little interest in being a lawyer, why go to law school at all?

lol beat me to it

The reason I would be hesitant to go to a T3 or a T4 with a full ride is a large percentage of graduates from these schools will not even get a job as a lawyer. There are 30,000 legal jobs out there this year for 43,000 graduates. That means that there are 13,000 people who may have just waisted three years of their life. I would rather just use by political science degree and make 30k and work my way up doing something interesting than waste three years, not get a salary for three years and then not be able to practice law when I'm done. Or, if I am able to get a job as a lawyer, it may turn out to be a shit law job that I have no interest in.

Certain T3 and T4 are probably worth it on a full ride, others aren't.

I don't know if it's wasted--you have an advanced degree. If somebody gets a master's in history or philosophy, it won't get them a job in academia most likely, but if they got it for free and only paid living expenses, long-run I'd think it's still a good call. You could even work part-time 2L and 3L year, and then you wouldn't be losing that much at all (as opposed to the full-time job selling cheap jewelry at JC Penney that is probably the best I could do with my college degree right now).

That said, I agree that it depends on the T3/T4. Here in the South, there are fewer law schools per capita and less competition than someplace like NYC. If I lived in NYC, I might well be saying I'd never do that.

[savesthedayajb]

UCH, maybe LLS.

[lawrookie]

Yeah in NYC you could just work as a cabbie or sell fish by the docks.....

Really, there are people on here who just wouldn't go to law school if somehow their only acceptances were at schools ranked 20-30, even if those schools offered full rides?

If you have that little interest in being a lawyer, why go to law school at all?

lol beat me to it

The reason I would be hesitant to go to a T3 or a T4 with a full ride is a large percentage of graduates from these schools will not even get a job as a lawyer. There are 30,000 legal jobs out there this year for 43,000 graduates. That means that there are 13,000 people who may have just waisted three years of their life. I would rather just use by political science degree and make 30k and work my way up doing something interesting than waste three years, not get a salary for three years and then not be able to practice law when I'm done. Or, if I am able to get a job as a lawyer, it may turn out to be a shit law job that I have no interest in.

Certain T3 and T4 are probably worth it on a full ride, others aren't.

I don't know if it's wasted--you have an advanced degree. If somebody gets a master's in history or philosophy, it won't get them a job in academia most likely, but if they got it for free and only paid living expenses, long-run I'd think it's still a good call. You could even work part-time 2L and 3L year, and then you wouldn't be losing that much at all (as opposed to the full-time job selling cheap jewelry at JC Penney that is probably the best I could do with my college degree right now).

That said, I agree that it depends on the T3/T4. Here in the South, there are fewer law schools per capita and less competition than someplace like NYC. If I lived in NYC, I might well be saying I'd never do that.

[DerrickRose]

There's a lot of doom-and-gloom on TLS about this. People from lower-tier schools can get legal jobs, or no one would go. You have to do well at the school, and you have to do your own legwork, and you may have to work a crappy job for the first few years, and if you don't have connections/aren't likable, you may be out of luck. But it's doable.

Even crappy jobs are real hard to come by right now. The economy sucks and the market is saturated with laid-off lawyers desperate to take anything. The place I'm interning this summer is still taking summer interns, but not hiring any new people for the next year or two because they're getting volunteers who are living off BigLaw deferrals and need something to do. It's hard to find anything out there right now.

In the last couple years there have been lots of talk about folks making top 10% and LR at T2 and even lower T1 schools and not being able to find jobs. I'm at a T14 and I've watched some of my classmates really struggle to find summer employment, even unpaid internships, in their home region. Things have gotten remarkably difficult, and people continue to go because they see those few who are still able to succeed and they think they can be one of those few. The problem is that when everyone believes they're one of a special few, a vast majority of them are going to be disappointed in a terrible way.

Things are bad right now. People underestimate how bad things are and overestimate their own potential for success, and that's why they keep going to low-ranked schools despite the odds being terribly stacked against them.

This.

This is very well said, I'm going to use this for my "TLS Conventional Wisdom Bible" if I ever get around to it.

[acdisagod]

You should start the bible thread and we could all pitch in with further suggestions.

[OperaSoprano]

Full ride ----> Northeastern. I liked the school's philosophy, and I would have enjoyed my time there very much. Of course Vanwinkle is credited about the state of the market...

[Dany]

T14 + Vandy. I took a full scholarship to a state school for undergrad, and I wouldn't want to spend three more years of my life at a place I wasn't absolutely in love with just because they gave me a full ride. However, that's just for me. I'm not really a T14 elitist, and I think in a lot of cases a full scholarship at a lower ranked school is the way to go for many applicants. Just depends on debt aversion, what kind of job a person wants, the academic environment they're looking for, etc.

[lawrookie]

Hey Moron, You realise that you "can practice law" even if no firm hires you right? Crazy shit I know. Ignorance is why you fail.

Really, there are people on here who just wouldn't go to law school if somehow their only acceptances were at schools ranked 20-30, even if those schools offered full rides?

If you have that little interest in being a lawyer, why go to law school at all?

lol beat me to it

The reason I would be hesitant to go to a T3 or a T4 with a full ride is a large percentage of graduates from these schools will not even get a job as a lawyer. There are 30,000 legal jobs out there this year for 43,000 graduates. That means that there are 13,000 people who may have just waisted three years of their life. I would rather just use by political science degree and make 30k and work my way up doing something interesting than waste three years, not get a salary for three years and then not be able to practice law when I'm done. Or, if I am able to get a job as a lawyer, it may turn out to be a shit law job that I have no interest in.

Certain T3 and T4 are probably worth it on a full ride, others aren't.

[symbioticdep]

Things are bad right now, for sure, but anyone attending law school in the fall is going to be looking for work three years from now. Hopefully by then things will have rebounded and the market will look better...however I still think that one has to go to a top-100 law school, "tier 1" according to USNWR, in order to rest assured that you will even get a legal job post-graduation.

With that being said, I think that many T3 and T4 schools take people's money and run. And to answer an earlier post that said that If people weren't getting jobs out of T3's and T4's they wouldn't go...I think that's overlooking the naivete of a lot of 0L's. I know plenty of people drowning themselves in debt to go to mediocre regional T3/T4's and they are looking at a lifetime of stuggling to pay off loans.

Let's not forget one thing though: some people really want to be lawyers. Not everyone goes to law school as a purely cost-benefit decision. How many people graduate from undergrad, 180,000 in the hole, and see that anytime soon? Just a thought.

[lawrookie]

I don't care how many people masterbate to photos of the T1 schools, if you pass ANY lawschool you can sit the bar, if you fail that its your own damn fault for not studying hard enough in school and bar prep. Hang your own shingle, dont be someones little bitch in a sweatshop, bunch of cowards.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Egh. I'm not gonna force myself to do 3 yrs of law school and come out with a crappy job that doesn't pay much.

I'd go to T14 + UCLA + the two regional schools (Wisco-Marquette) for free. Otherwise I'd have to think twice.

[lawrookie]

yeah cleaning toliets, much better way to live,

Egh. I'm not gonna force myself to do 3 yrs of law school and come out with a crappy job that doesn't pay much.

I'd go to T14 + UCLA + the two regional schools (Wisco-Marquette) for free. Otherwise I'd have to think twice.

[pinkzeppelin]

I would go as low as possible as long as the name held some national lay recognition (e.g. NOT cooley, but possibly WVU)

Basically I don't want the name on my resume to inspire a negative affect in my potential employers should I decide to pursue a field other than law.