Deposits down at two places-- HELP: Iowa vs Washington & Lee Forum

[Regionality]

Here: http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Career%20 ... %20WEB.pdf

Obviously an elementary knowledge of statistics should be applied. 11 are reported in DC out of a class of 138 (I think I read that correctly). I don't think they necessarily have to be law-related jobs either (see Employment Types).

Does DC include ppl working in DC metro but technically working in Virginia or Maryland?

[Yacht_Party]

lol I don't know. I didn't help to publish these statistics.

[Thomas Jefferson]

You should also keep in mind that W&L places a large amount (relative to its rank/peer schools) of students into Article III clerkships (usually close to 10%, if I recall correctly). Presumably, those students will have decent firm options, if they want them, after their clerkships.

[Regionality]

lol I don't know. I didn't help to publish these statistics.

haha i know but what I'm saying is that most likely there are some from Maryland and some from Virginia added to the DC bunch...perhaps 10-15 more?? That's a sizable chunk for a class of 135...(though not as sizable as I would like...)

Damnit I would NOT want to work in rural Virginia!

[Yacht_Party]

You should also keep in mind that W&L places a large amount (relative to its rank/peer schools) of students into Article III clerkships (usually close to 10%, if I recall correctly). Presumably, those students will have decent firm options, if they want them, after their clerkships.

Yes, I just saw that as reflected in the statistics. You should definitely take this into consideration.

[Regionality]

Oh and to the person who said the difference in rankings don't matter, I agree except for the following: W&L has been dropping in the rankings for years. It was #18 in 2002 and has been dropping ever since...

Why? Will it stop/reverse? Is this indicative of anything?

[MoS]

Here: http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Career%20 ... %20WEB.pdf

Obviously an elementary knowledge of statistics should be applied. 11 are reported in DC out of a class of 138 (I think I read that correctly). I don't think they necessarily have to be law-related jobs either (see Employment Types).

I know Iowa has a larger class but 13 report DC as their location from Iowa, if that helps compare the two schools.

[Regionality]

Here: http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Career%20 ... %20WEB.pdf

Obviously an elementary knowledge of statistics should be applied. 11 are reported in DC out of a class of 138 (I think I read that correctly). I don't think they necessarily have to be law-related jobs either (see Employment Types).

I know Iowa has a larger class but 13 report DC as their location from Iowa, if that helps compare the two schools.

very good point...I wonder too:

As a percentage of people looking for jobs in DC from Iowa, does Iowa place better in DC? (there are TONS of Iowa grads who want to stay in Iowa...or the midwest)

[Yacht_Party]

As a percentage of people looking for jobs in DC from Iowa, does Iowa place better in DC? (there are TONS of Iowa grads who want to stay in Iowa...or the midwest)

That is going to be very difficult to discern.

[Regionality]

As a percentage of people looking for jobs in DC from Iowa, does Iowa place better in DC? (there are TONS of Iowa grads who want to stay in Iowa...or the midwest)

That is going to be very difficult to discern.

Impossible I'm sure...just a hypo...

[Yacht_Party]

For DC: W&L > Iowa

For Chicago: Iowa > W&L

W&L: DC/stay relatively more local

Iowa: lower chance at Chicago/stay relatively more regional

Someone correct me if I'm way off-base.

Both the DC and Chicago markets may be difficult to crack.

/end contribution to this thread.

[krj02004]

Oh and to the person who said the difference in rankings don't matter, I agree except for the following: W&L has been dropping in the rankings for years. It was #18 in 2002 and has been dropping ever since...

Why? Will it stop/reverse? Is this indicative of anything?

THat's what I was trying to hint at earlier... I personally would be concerned about that. I should think it says something to prospective employers potentially.

[T14_Scholly]

Oh and to the person who said the difference in rankings don't matter, I agree except for the following: W&L has been dropping in the rankings for years. It was #18 in 2002 and has been dropping ever since...

Why? Will it stop/reverse? Is this indicative of anything?

THat's what I was trying to hint at earlier... I personally would be concerned about that. I should think it says something to prospective employers potentially.

It means nothing. W&L's reputation score, indeed its overall score (I believe) hasn't dropped. Competitor schools in wildly different parts of the country have made incremental gains. And when I say "competitor" I mean that in a meaningless sense, since obviously W&L grads aren't competing with Indiana grads. There are also like six-way ties which is retarded. Employers' perceptions of a school don't change based on meaningless information.

[T14_Scholly]

FWIW, I was facing a similar choice a year ago and ended up taking Iowa. I am also trying to break into international law, and while I would love to work in DC, I did a little bit of homework and noticed that Iowa had some strong faculty in that department. Also, I liked the fact that Iowa's journals (including law review) were a write-on application procedure, rather than a "by invitation only to those with a GPA above x.yz". I liked that because I wasn't sure how my first year would turn out. I was also amazed at the percentage of students that actually got on journals.. a lot. Between Iowa Law Review; the Journal for Gender, Race, and Justice; Journal for Corporation Law; and the Journal of Transnational Law and Contemporary Problems, there seems to be a ton of opportunities for anyone who is seriously committed about getting a few notes published, and even an article published (outside of maybe law review...).

Another thing that drew me to Iowa was the night life. I heard it was pretty good and it did not disappoint when I got here. It's true that the weather is BRUTAL in the winter, but the summer is quite nice and starts EARLY. It's like spring and fall don't even happen. Kinda like a switch that gets flicked on in April, and then gets turned off in October. The coldest months are Dec, Jan, Feb. I won't lie... these three months are brutal in terms of sheer cold. Very little snow, however.

Also, Iowa's legal clinic was appealing. It allows for any student with 3 or more semesters under their belt to represent clients in state court while earning class credit. This is limited to 15 credit hours, but you can work on cases that range from Domestic Violence to cases involving Immigration Law. I felt like Iowa would give me a better experience, so that I would only have 2 years worth of full-time class work, while spending the 3rd year being on the editing/executive board of a journal, getting work experience with the legal clinic, and maybe take a course or two to patch up the 84 credits required for graduation. Also, keep in mind that if you get on the board of one of the journals then this counts as an RA job and you won't have to worry about keeping a separate RA gig for 3rd year.


Hope this helps!

1) W&L's law review isn't grade-on.

2) W&L's third year curriculum consists of practical work experience.

Yes, but their new 3rd year practical work experience is in Lexington...I don't get the sense that it can be terribly broad in nature...their clinics are sorta interesting...

I agree that the rank differences matter little. Both are incredibly strong regional schools...45k in savings does matter at Iowa, and I only have a slight preference for DC over Chicago....BUT assuming I had no regional preference, which of the two schools has better employment prospects overall?

I believe only a minority of the externships are in Lexington.

[Regionality]

Oh and to the person who said the difference in rankings don't matter, I agree except for the following: W&L has been dropping in the rankings for years. It was #18 in 2002 and has been dropping ever since...

Why? Will it stop/reverse? Is this indicative of anything?

THat's what I was trying to hint at earlier... I personally would be concerned about that. I should think it says something to prospective employers potentially.

It means nothing. W&L's reputation score, indeed its overall score (I believe) hasn't dropped. Competitor schools in wildly different parts of the country have made incremental gains. And when I say "competitor" I mean that in a meaningless sense, since obviously W&L grads aren't competing with Indiana grads. There are also like six-way ties which is retarded. Employers' perceptions of a school don't change based on meaningless information.

But the schools that are displacing W&L are not exclusively regional schools. Wisconsin, UNC, W&M, Indiana and so on DO place a percentage of their grads nationally...meaning it's possible that W&L grads are either takinga hit bc of the lowered ranking OR the lower ranking is a response to them taking a hit in some way...or the rankings reflect nothing whatsoever, never will, never have and it's not going to matter for schools ranked 20 through 44. Thoughts?

[T14_Scholly]

Oh and to the person who said the difference in rankings don't matter, I agree except for the following: W&L has been dropping in the rankings for years. It was #18 in 2002 and has been dropping ever since...

Why? Will it stop/reverse? Is this indicative of anything?

THat's what I was trying to hint at earlier... I personally would be concerned about that. I should think it says something to prospective employers potentially.

It means nothing. W&L's reputation score, indeed its overall score (I believe) hasn't dropped. Competitor schools in wildly different parts of the country have made incremental gains. And when I say "competitor" I mean that in a meaningless sense, since obviously W&L grads aren't competing with Indiana grads. There are also like six-way ties which is retarded. Employers' perceptions of a school don't change based on meaningless information.

But the schools that are displacing W&L are not exclusively regional schools. Wisconsin, UNC, W&M, Indiana and so on DO place a percentage of their grads nationally...meaning it's possible that W&L grads are either takinga hit bc of the lowered ranking OR the lower ranking is a response to them taking a hit in some way...or the rankings reflect nothing whatsoever, never will, never have and it's not going to matter for schools ranked 20 through 44. Thoughts?

Well whatever small percentage of those grads go to W&L's region (with the exception of W&M, which has always been in competition with W&L) aren't going to have an advantage due to a better rank that is the result of a one point difference in US News' ranking score. Employers have established hiring practices and they know the schools' reputation. There's probably some rough range of rankings in that ballpark in which the ranking doesn't matter.

[daddymike]

I think you are largely correct, with the exception being that a decent chunk of W&L grads are going to NYC these days...but yes I don't want to end up in the bustling metropolis of Roanoke or Richmond if I can't place in DC or NYC...

But I would be interested to hear from people whether they think Iowa for Chicago is better than W&L for DC, or vice versa...

This is amusing to me only because I am in Iowa and just landed a career-track internship in NYC, as well as an externship out of DC that I will be working on from NYC in the evenings. Mind you, while the career services office here at Iowa is good, they had very little resources to help me to get back to the East Coast. I basically had to network to get every opportunity I had. FWIW, my grades are okay, but certainly not top of the class. People that are banking solely on their grades and alumni connections nowadays are going to be quite disappointed when they graduate IMO.

[Barolo]

T-14 scholly says: It means nothing. W&L's reputation score, indeed its overall score (I believe) hasn't dropped. Competitor schools in wildly different parts of the country have made incremental gains. And when I say "competitor" I mean that in a meaningless sense, since obviously W&L grads aren't competing with Indiana grads. There are also like six-way ties which is retarded. Employers' perceptions of a school don't change based on meaningless information.


To say it means nothing goes too far. W&L has been sliding in comparison to other schools. Though T-14 correctly points out that their raw score (62) has remained stagnant for several years, more schools go up than go down or remain the same (this year: 15/50 went down or stayed the same, 35/50 went up in raw score). Despite the fact that there are more high scores out there, for whatever reason, W&L has not been capitalizing on them - their student quality has remained the same (which is high quality). They've also been hammered with lousy placement stats and comparativley weak bar passage rates. I'd also agree that the ties are differently-abled; usnwr should not round the score to a whole number.

I think W&L is still a really solid school, but I'd be concerned about job prospects (especially in DC). I don't think that Iowa would be any better for DC (but probably for Chicago, however that's a market that's been hit hard and will be feeding from a lot of other schools before Iowa) and I think OP needs to consider the steep odds againt a career in international law. None of those goals are impossible, but one should consider the parameters of the most likely outcome - median and seeking employment in the region of either of these schools (or in whatever area he/she is from) - not trying to be a Debbie Downer.

[Barolo]

Follow the money.