Money vs. Reputation Forum

[scribelaw]

Yeah, CCN vs. other T10 w/ $$ is a darn hard question. I woke up at around 4:30 this morning and couldn't go back to sleep because of it. I'm dying.

For me, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Northwestern with a $60,000-$90,000 scholarship is a better option than NYU sticker, if I end up getting money from Northwestern.

Unless you want NYC

Correct.

I like NYC, DC and Chicago and wouldn't mind living in any of them. I'm also from the Midwest so having that as a backup option is nice, which is more realistic at Northwestern (lower debt and more Midwest firms at OCI).

I guess it comes down to personal preferences.

[thickfreakness]

I agree with the difficulty in choosing behind CCN and 1/2+ Tuition at a T10. Based on all the actual numbers I've seen, it looks like the T10 is the way to go. However, as others have pointed out, there may be other (less quantifiable) benefits of going to a T6 school.

I went into fedex/kinko's the other day to get a poster made and they told me the cd was blank. At the time I figured that I had grabbed the wrong cd because I didn't label it. Then I went home to check, and it was the right one. I brought it back the next day, went to a different counter and it worked fine. Made me smile and think of your avatar.

/useless and irrelevant (sort of) post

If a customer has a computer disk, tell them it's the wrong format! hahaha i heart the chappelle show.

If they use a PC, tell em we use Mac. If they use a Mac, tell em we use PC. If they use both, just tell them the system's down. It should be, anyhow!

[ze2151]

I agree with the difficulty in choosing behind CCN and 1/2+ Tuition at a T10. Based on all the actual numbers I've seen, it looks like the T10 is the way to go. However, as others have pointed out, there may be other (less quantifiable) benefits of going to a T6 school.

I went into fedex/kinko's the other day to get a poster made and they told me the cd was blank. At the time I figured that I had grabbed the wrong cd because I didn't label it. Then I went home to check, and it was the right one. I brought it back the next day, went to a different counter and it worked fine. Made me smile and think of your avatar.

/useless and irrelevant (sort of) post

If a customer has a computer disk, tell them it's the wrong format! hahaha i heart the chappelle show.

If a customer asks for the manager, tell him you ARE the manager!

[AngryAvocado]

Great post, OP. I had a very similar experience talking to several biglaw and in-house lawyers over the past few months, and I'm glad to see my experience wasn't entirely isolated.

the basic principle op is arguing for is a good one, i think, but i like the amendment here regarding regional elites. if you, like i, want to live and work in georgia forever, then a full ride at emory may well trump 60,000 at uva. but if i wanted to move back to the northeast, the cash at emory might not be a prudent choice and certainly wouldn't be the better option between emory and uva, unless you want to go to emory for a specific reason (law and religion perhaps).

Isn't this exactly the sort of rationale that the people OP spoke with are arguing against? I'm pretty sure the same lawyers who advise taking NYU/CLS at sticker over 3/4 ride at UCLA (even for Cali) would advise you to take UVA w/ $ over a full ride at Emory in a heartbeat.

[bernie shmegma]

What the F is CCN?

[bernie shmegma]

Great post, OP. I had a very similar experience talking to several biglaw and in-house lawyers over the past few months, and I'm glad to see my experience wasn't entirely isolated.

the basic principle op is arguing for is a good one, i think, but i like the amendment here regarding regional elites. if you, like i, want to live and work in georgia forever, then a full ride at emory may well trump 60,000 at uva. but if i wanted to move back to the northeast, the cash at emory might not be a prudent choice and certainly wouldn't be the better option between emory and uva, unless you want to go to emory for a specific reason (law and religion perhaps).

Isn't this exactly the sort of rationale that the people OP spoke with are arguing against? I'm pretty sure the same lawyers who advise taking NYU/CLS at sticker over 3/4 ride at UCLA (even for Cali) would advise you to take UVA w/ $ over a full ride at Emory in a heartbeat.

No. Read it more carefully.

[thickfreakness]

What the F is CCN?

Columbia, Chicago, NYU

[bernie shmegma]

What the F is CCN?

Columbia, Chicago, NYU

Oh, of course!

[soullesswonder]

Great post, OP. I had a very similar experience talking to several biglaw and in-house lawyers over the past few months, and I'm glad to see my experience wasn't entirely isolated.

the basic principle op is arguing for is a good one, i think, but i like the amendment here regarding regional elites. if you, like i, want to live and work in georgia forever, then a full ride at emory may well trump 60,000 at uva. but if i wanted to move back to the northeast, the cash at emory might not be a prudent choice and certainly wouldn't be the better option between emory and uva, unless you want to go to emory for a specific reason (law and religion perhaps).

Isn't this exactly the sort of rationale that the people OP spoke with are arguing against? I'm pretty sure the same lawyers who advise taking NYU/CLS at sticker over 3/4 ride at UCLA (even for Cali) would advise you to take UVA w/ $ over a full ride at Emory in a heartbeat.

No. Read it more carefully.

You were the one who introduced the idea that "regional elites" should be part of the equation. You also put Emory and Vandy in the same category, which is hugely misleading. You don't trade away a T10 degree for an extra 60k at Emory.

[bernie shmegma]

Great post, OP. I had a very similar experience talking to several biglaw and in-house lawyers over the past few months, and I'm glad to see my experience wasn't entirely isolated.

the basic principle op is arguing for is a good one, i think, but i like the amendment here regarding regional elites. if you, like i, want to live and work in georgia forever, then a full ride at emory may well trump 60,000 at uva. but if i wanted to move back to the northeast, the cash at emory might not be a prudent choice and certainly wouldn't be the better option between emory and uva, unless you want to go to emory for a specific reason (law and religion perhaps).

Isn't this exactly the sort of rationale that the people OP spoke with are arguing against? I'm pretty sure the same lawyers who advise taking NYU/CLS at sticker over 3/4 ride at UCLA (even for Cali) would advise you to take UVA w/ $ over a full ride at Emory in a heartbeat.

No. Read it more carefully.

You were the one who introduced the idea that "regional elites" should be part of the equation. You also put Emory and Vandy in the same category, which is hugely misleading. You don't trade away a T10 degree for an extra 60k at Emory.

Not my post, read the next guys post more carefully. He didn't say in all circumstances and neither did I. So, it was NOT exactly the opposite of what the OP is arguing. Additionally, I disagree with you on the last comment. I don't think you can clearly determine "You don't throw away T10 for an extra 60K at Emory" if you want ATL and you have the options between 60K at Emory and lower COL vs. Northwestern at sticker with higher COL. The OP is really referring- more reasonably- to T6 + Regional elite for some regions (like Emory/Vandy in ATL) and more like T14 + regional elites for other regions (like Fordham in NY)

[KG_CalGuy]

Great post, OP. I had a very similar experience talking to several biglaw and in-house lawyers over the past few months, and I'm glad to see my experience wasn't entirely isolated.

the basic principle op is arguing for is a good one, i think, but i like the amendment here regarding regional elites. if you, like i, want to live and work in georgia forever, then a full ride at emory may well trump 60,000 at uva. but if i wanted to move back to the northeast, the cash at emory might not be a prudent choice and certainly wouldn't be the better option between emory and uva, unless you want to go to emory for a specific reason (law and religion perhaps).

Isn't this exactly the sort of rationale that the people OP spoke with are arguing against? I'm pretty sure the same lawyers who advise taking NYU/CLS at sticker over 3/4 ride at UCLA (even for Cali) would advise you to take UVA w/ $ over a full ride at Emory in a heartbeat.

To clarify, the people who I spoke with would probably argue for UVA over Emory in most cases. As one of you pointed out, if you don't care about biglaw, and know you want to work in Atlanta/Georgia for the rest of your life, Emory will probably get the job done for you. The people I spoke with emphasized picking the "best" school for a number of reasons, the main ones being: (1) Depth of hiring. The fact is that employers go deeper into the applicant pool among a t5/t10 school than they do at the schools (2) Opportunity. There are both more markets for a grad from an elite school (as many of you mentioned NYC and DC),and more types of jobs (a school like NYU/CLS and, I imagine, UVA, has better connections with a lot of public interest groups, government agencies, and "non-firm" jobs), and probably a has a better established channel to clerkships and careers in academia and (3) Portability (this is related to the opportunity argument).

That being said, I'll reiterate my point that it isn't ALWAYS best to take the highest ranked school (Georgetown vs. UCLA/UT being one obvious case) and people still have to consider a number of factors beyond $$$ (location, "vibe," emphasis, personal connections, etc.)

[racie23]

Thsi is a great post and awesome info but what about those of us that are choosing between a top 45 school vs. two schools ranked 61?
The way I see it Brooklyn (61) offers best location for the next three years but will cost $59/yr and is third best educationally due to factors such as class size and student/faculty ratio; Lewis & Clark, Portland, OR 61) is by far the cheapest at $45/yr, offers the second best location and second best education; U of A, Tuscon, AZ (43) will most likely provide the best education and will cost $53/yr but offers the worst location.
Assuming I need to be flexible about where I work but I really don't like the idea of being stuck in AZ past law school and I may not be able to do public interest work if it would be unpaid but I know I don't want to follow the Big Law model, what would you choose? Or if you are not comfortable saying that how would you look at and prioritize the factors/schools above?

[dakatz]

I basically have this same dilemma. its a T20 school in the region where I want to be, for nearly free, vs. a T-6 school in a place I have no interest in being and at full price.

[Clint Eastwood]

I basically have this same dilemma. its a T20 school in the region where I want to be, for nearly free, vs. a T-6 school in a place I have no interest in being and at full price.

Well, then, I'd say to you what problem do you have with the region known as 'America'?

[KG_CalGuy]

Thsi is a great post and awesome info but what about those of us that are choosing between a top 45 school vs. two schools ranked 61?
The way I see it Brooklyn (61) offers best location for the next three years but will cost $59/yr and is third best educationally due to factors such as class size and student/faculty ratio; Lewis & Clark, Portland, OR 61) is by far the cheapest at $45/yr, offers the second best location and second best education; U of A, Tuscon, AZ (43) will most likely provide the best education and will cost $53/yr but offers the worst location.
Assuming I need to be flexible about where I work but I really don't like the idea of being stuck in AZ past law school and I may not be able to do public interest work if it would be unpaid but I know I don't want to follow the Big Law model, what would you choose? Or if you are not comfortable saying that how would you look at and prioritize the factors/schools above?

The sad fact is, once you step outside the top 25 or so (if even that much), you are really looking at regional employment. Sure you could probably get jobs in other markets, but your odds are much lower, especially if you step into a big market like LA, SF, DC, or NY, all of which draw students from elite schools. I can't really say where'd I go, but that's mostly because I decided early on that I wouldn't go to a school outside the t25 (with a few exceptions) based upon the types of career opportunities I wanted. However, my priorities for your situation would be the following (1) Debt. Figure out how much debt you'll accrue at each school and based upon their employment stats (which they ought to give you if you ask), figure out how long that debt will be a burden. (2) Job Market. I'd go in with the mindset that you won't be able to get a job outside of your school's region (though you might). Ask yourself where you want to be "stuck" after you graduate. (3) Intangibles. Consider your personal factors such as leaving behind family, friends, or a significant other. Consider quality of life and cost of living, and of course which schools have the programs you like. At a regional school, you're best bet may be to work the "specialization" approach and situate yourself in a niche market.

[KG_CalGuy]

I basically have this same dilemma. its a T20 school in the region where I want to be, for nearly free, vs. a T-6 school in a place I have no interest in being and at full price.

Who cares how good the school is if you hate being there. Although, if this is Chicago (which I expect it is), I'd think really hard about it. If it's Berkeley, I personally think they're overrated (but I'm also a little bitter that they dinged me).

[kittenmittons]

I basically have this same dilemma. its a T20 school in the region where I want to be, for nearly free, vs. a T-6 school in a place I have no interest in being and at full price.

Who cares how good the school is if you hate being there. Although, if this is Chicago (which I expect it is), I'd think really hard about it. If it's Berkeley, I personally think they're overrated (but I'm also a little bitter that they dinged me).

Lawl @ boalt being a top 6.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Going through a similar dilemma: UVA at half cost vs UT for a significant amount less. Does one offer me significantly more opportunity at Texas firms than the other? I'm starting to think no.

Weigh in here!

[KG_CalGuy]

I basically have this same dilemma. its a T20 school in the region where I want to be, for nearly free, vs. a T-6 school in a place I have no interest in being and at full price.

Who cares how good the school is if you hate being there. Although, if this is Chicago (which I expect it is), I'd think really hard about it. If it's Berkeley, I personally think they're overrated (but I'm also a little bitter that they dinged me).

Lawl @ boalt being a top 6.

Beware, the wrath of Ken is sure to come! I think Boalt is really living off name alone and with these budget cuts they're going to suffer. Plus, I've heard that employers have mixed feelings about their grads.

[racie23]

Thsi is a great post and awesome info but what about those of us that are choosing between a top 45 school vs. two schools ranked 61?
The way I see it Brooklyn (61) offers best location for the next three years but will cost $59/yr and is third best educationally due to factors such as class size and student/faculty ratio; Lewis & Clark, Portland, OR 61) is by far the cheapest at $45/yr, offers the second best location and second best education; U of A, Tuscon, AZ (43) will most likely provide the best education and will cost $53/yr but offers the worst location.
Assuming I need to be flexible about where I work but I really don't like the idea of being stuck in AZ past law school and I may not be able to do public interest work if it would be unpaid but I know I don't want to follow the Big Law model, what would you choose? Or if you are not comfortable saying that how would you look at and prioritize the factors/schools above?

The sad fact is, once you step outside the top 25 or so (if even that much), you are really looking at regional employment. Sure you could probably get jobs in other markets, but your odds are much lower, especially if you step into a big market like LA, SF, DC, or NY, all of which draw students from elite schools. I can't really say where'd I go, but that's mostly because I decided early on that I wouldn't go to a school outside the t25 (with a few exceptions) based upon the types of career opportunities I wanted. However, my priorities for your situation would be the following (1) Debt. Figure out how much debt you'll accrue at each school and based upon their employment stats (which they ought to give you if you ask), figure out how long that debt will be a burden. (2) Job Market. I'd go in with the mindset that you won't be able to get a job outside of your school's region (though you might). Ask yourself where you want to be "stuck" after you graduate. (3) Intangibles. Consider your personal factors such as leaving behind family, friends, or a significant other. Consider quality of life and cost of living, and of course which schools have the programs you like. At a regional school, you're best bet may be to work the "specialization" approach and situate yourself in a niche market.

Thanks for the advice. The truth is that none of these schools afford me staying close to family or friends. The one that gets closest is Santa Clara putting me about an hour from SF and a bunch of friends but SCU has a low employment rate and a low bar pass rate and the scholarship they offered requires that I stay in the top 25% and the school is only ranked 85 so if I go there and I lose the scholarship than I am paying top dollar for a not so top dollar school just in the hopes that I find a good job in SF since it is only an hour away....this already sounds daunting and then you add in that Stanford, BOLT, Hastings, Davis and even USF have a better draw on the SF. Makes me think U of A or even L&C would give me the same chance of getting a good job in SF.

But suppose we say nevermind on the SF factor, which of those schools (U of A, Brooklyn and L&C) are going to give more access to markets other than their own?

[Great Satchmo]

Racie23 - It is the connections that seem to matter a lot for students. Going to SCU might make it somewhat difficult to place into SF, but that's because they focus on employment on the Peninsula or in the South Bay. If you went to U of A, I imagine you'd encounter similar networking opportunities.

I don't think schools, outside of the top schools, really seem to get "get you that job" as much as "give you the opportunity to have your resume looked at via connections, either tangibly through networking events, or with employer-school relationships'.

That's just my dumb 0L perspective, however.

[KG_CalGuy]

You might find what you're looking for here: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

[doinmybest]

You might find what you're looking for here: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

That's interesting, what year is that from?

[KG_CalGuy]

The article I took it from "What Rankings Don't Say About Costly Choices" was written in 2008

[inSouthAmerica]

I basically have this same dilemma. its a T20 school in the region where I want to be, for nearly free, vs. a T-6 school in a place I have no interest in being and at full price.

Well, then, I'd say to you what problem do you have with the region known as 'America'?

this made me laugh. thanks clint.