Engage: HLS vs Penn with Levy ($110,000) Forum

[EijiMiyake]

I'm not sure how serious you are, but it seems kind of silly to base any decision on SCOTUS clerk hiring, for example, when even HLS placed only 83. True, 83 is a lot more than 3, but also a lot fewer than 4500 (approximate HLS grads in 8 years).

You're making an enormous mistake, and that's looking at these numbers as only their own value, and not what they really are, which is representative of a much greater phenomenon: The HLS degree carries far more prestige and opens more doors than a Penn degree. Even if you don't get to be one of those 83 or so HLS grads that clerk for SCOTUS in the next 8 years, that extra prestige still extends to ease in getting COA clerkships (which there are many, many more of available), academic jobs (those 993 professors that graduated from HLS didn't all clerk for SCOTUS), and so on and so forth.

It also extends to BigLaw. Law firms love HLS grads because they can use the number of HLS grads in their employment as a selling point to clients. They can use the fact that they're putting an HLS grad on a client's case as a selling point to the client. Clients know and love the HLS name. With the economy the way it is, firms have been cutting back hiring by cutting how deep they go pretty much everywhere, but they go a lot deeper at HLS than they do almost anywhere else, even the lower T14.

Penn still places well in BigLaw, and if that's all you're after then going to Penn might make more sense because Penn's placement in BigLaw is still very strong and you don't need all the prestige you can get to help you there, like you do in the clerkships and academia markets. Simply going to Penn and doing well will be enough to get you a job in BigLaw.

My point wasn't that Penn and HLS are equal everywhere else - it's just that even in the cases where they are the most unequal (the stats that you cited), you still have to do very, very well at HLS to have access to those opportunities.

[englawyer]

i have posted a similar thought in other threads. either choice will come with a regret.

go to penn might i have been a scotus clerk? could i have scored a mckinsey interview? would i have gotten an interview at wachtell? these types of thoughts could follow you throughout your life, especially if you did particularly well at penn, because chances are you would have done well at HLS and had great opportunities

go to harvard sending 2-3k of every paycheck to harvard for 3-5 years. will suck to feel "trapped" in biglaw. financial regret.

which one of these stings the most or could sting the most in the future is a personal decision

[EijiMiyake]

I wonder why the Levy isn't a full scholarship. I think just the fact that ischolarships are 'full-tuition' makes a huge psychological impact.

[vanwinkle]

My point wasn't that Penn and HLS are equal everywhere else - it's just that even in the cases where they are the most unequal (the stats that you cited), you still have to do very, very well at HLS to have access to those opportunities.

Maybe this statistic will show you how far into the class this trickles down. From 2006, which is pre-ITE (so giving Penn the fairest shot possible since its placement been hurt more than HLS by the crash):

The percentage of 2Ls placed into summer associate positions with Vault 25 law firms in 2006:

Harvard: 57.3% (319 students)
Penn: 39.1% (95 students)

Source: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

Look at that. More than half the class at HLS got put into Vault 25. You don't even have to try to argue about how many kids self-selected away from BigLaw, by default that statistic establishes that at least 7.3% of the HLS 2Ls at or below median got V25 summer jobs. If you expand to the V100, watch what happens:

The percentage of 2Ls placed into summer associate positions with Vault 100 law firms in 2006:

Harvard: 74.1% (413 students)
Penn: 49.4% (120 students)

Source: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

In 2006, almost 3/4 of Harvard's grads went to V100 firms! Less than half of Penn's did, in the same year. Obviously those numbers speak to HLS' influence and usefulness beyond those who "do very, very well at HLS". ITE you can't expect to do that well that low in the class at HLS, but everything indicates that the crash has hurt Penn's placement a lot more than it's hurt Harvard's.

[KibblesAndVick]

When you look at the number of HLS grads who do amazing things (Supreme Court clerk, President, ect.) keep in mind that you don't need to be that guy or gal to reap some benefit from going to school with them. HLS is going to give you connections and there can be tremendous benefit in that. The network you graduate into is legendary at Harvard.

If I were fortunate enough to find myself in your shoes, my biggest qualm about picking Penn would be a fear of success. As unlikely as it is, if you made law review at Penn you would probably spend a lot of time asking yourself what if.

[vanwinkle]

When you look at the number of HLS grads who do amazing things (Supreme Court clerk, President, ect.) keep in mind that you don't need to be that guy or gal to reap some benefit from going to school with them. HLS is going to give you connections and there can be tremendous benefit in that. The network you graduate into is legendary at Harvard.

Precisely.

What do you call the dude who graduates last at Harvard Law? You call him a Harvard Law grad. And you call him that for the rest of his life.

[cflames7]

My point wasn't that Penn and HLS are equal everywhere else - it's just that even in the cases where they are the most unequal (the stats that you cited), you still have to do very, very well at HLS to have access to those opportunities.

Maybe this statistic will show you how far into the class this trickles down. From 2006, which is pre-ITE (so giving Penn the fairest shot possible since its placement been hurt more than HLS by the crash):

The percentage of 2Ls placed into summer associate positions with Vault 25 law firms in 2006:

Harvard: 57.3% (319 students)
Penn: 39.1% (95 students)

Source: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

Look at that. More than half the class at HLS got put into Vault 25. You don't even have to try to argue about how many kids self-selected away from BigLaw, by default that statistic establishes that at least 7.3% of the HLS 2Ls at or below median got V25 summer jobs. If you expand to the V100, watch what happens:

The percentage of 2Ls placed into summer associate positions with Vault 100 law firms in 2006:

Harvard: 74.1% (413 students)
Penn: 49.4% (120 students)

Source: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

In 2006, almost 3/4 of Harvard's grads went to V100 firms! Less than half of Penn's did, in the same year. Obviously those numbers speak to HLS' influence and usefulness beyond those who "do very, very well at HLS". ITE you can't expect to do that well that low in the class at HLS, but everything indicates that the crash has hurt Penn's placement a lot more than it's hurt Harvard's.

I get what you are saying, but I don't know this helps or not?

Which school has better students (based on numbers alone)? Harvard. Higher LSAT range and higher GPA. In fact, the top 25% of students at Penn are equal (in numbers) to the bottom 25% of Harvard.

Yet, 39.1% of Penn students are getting V25 jobs while 17% of Harvard's class couldn't get V25 jobs and had to settle for V100 jobs.

Are these 17% of students the bottom quartile of the class who could have been top quartile at Penn and elsewhere? Accordingly, could they have landed the V25 jobs in they were at Penn instead?

My point is that the top of Penn (which by raw numbers should equal the bottom of Harvard) outperforms the bottom of Harvard.

[englawyer]

but your lsat/gpa can't reliably predict where you will end up in the class. everyone going to LS will be a serious student and will be trying their best, so you can't gauge the competition ahead of time

[cflames7]

When you look at the number of HLS grads who do amazing things (Supreme Court clerk, President, ect.) keep in mind that you don't need to be that guy or gal to reap some benefit from going to school with them. HLS is going to give you connections and there can be tremendous benefit in that. The network you graduate into is legendary at Harvard.

If I were fortunate enough to find myself in your shoes, my biggest qualm about picking Penn would be a fear of success. As unlikely as it is, if you made law review at Penn you would probably spend a lot of time asking yourself what if.

This post is so true.

What I get out of this is that, if you want great things... go to Harvard.

If you want stress-free financial security for rest of your life... go to Penn. (although you will probably do amazingly well financially if you go to Harvard as well).

[cflames7]

but your lsat/gpa can't reliably predict where you will end up in the class. everyone going to LS will be a serious student and will be trying their best, so you can't gauge the competition ahead of time

So would the students who made V25 firms at Penn or V100 at Penn been better off with a Harvard education, based on the fact that they had what it takes to succeed in law school?



(sidebar, my only point was the self-selection of top students to Harvard could explain, in part, why Harvard grads perform better)

[EijiMiyake]

When you look at the number of HLS grads who do amazing things (Supreme Court clerk, President, ect.) keep in mind that you don't need to be that guy or gal to reap some benefit from going to school with them. HLS is going to give you connections and there can be tremendous benefit in that. The network you graduate into is legendary at Harvard.

If I were fortunate enough to find myself in your shoes, my biggest qualm about picking Penn would be a fear of success. As unlikely as it is, if you made law review at Penn you would probably spend a lot of time asking yourself what if.

This post is so true.

What I get out of this is that, if you want great things... go to Harvard.

If you want stress-free financial security for rest of your life... go to Penn. (although you will probably do amazingly well financially if you go to Harvard as well).

I actually voted for HLS, but I don't think it's so simple. Van Wrinkle has the ITE stats, and I know very little about the atmosphere of MVP over the past year or two.

However, pre-ITE, and presumably post as well, most HLS grads and most Penn grads went on to very ordinary, lucrative biglaw firms that they hate working for.

I strangely have tons of friends at HLS, all of whom I'd consider to be really smart and hard-working, and none of them got jobs out of law school that were only available to HYS grads, or substantially easier to get for HYS grads. None of them clerked, none of them work in PI, none of them work for Wachtell/Keker/Susman, none of them work for the DOJ.

I have absolutely no idea how the HLS degree/network will play out when they try to get their second, and third, and fourth jobs in the next decades.

I just think that it's difficult to make a $110k bet that you'll do well enough at HLS to have the opportunity to do "great things" out of law school.

[rayiner]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

Remember, ITE T14 = T25 during the boom. Like GW, Fordham kids in 2007, T14 folks are okay in the top third, but nervous around median. YHS are the only places that offer the kind of guarantees that T14 used to, and if the stats about 20% of HLS 2Ls striking out at biglaw are correct, then ITE even HLS has about he same safety net the lower T14 did during the boom.

[cflames7]

When you look at the number of HLS grads who do amazing things (Supreme Court clerk, President, ect.) keep in mind that you don't need to be that guy or gal to reap some benefit from going to school with them. HLS is going to give you connections and there can be tremendous benefit in that. The network you graduate into is legendary at Harvard.

If I were fortunate enough to find myself in your shoes, my biggest qualm about picking Penn would be a fear of success. As unlikely as it is, if you made law review at Penn you would probably spend a lot of time asking yourself what if.

This post is so true.

What I get out of this is that, if you want great things... go to Harvard.

If you want stress-free financial security for rest of your life... go to Penn. (although you will probably do amazingly well financially if you go to Harvard as well).

I actually voted for HLS, but I don't think it's so simple. Van Wrinkle has the ITE stats, and I know very little about the atmosphere of MVP over the past year or two.

However, pre-ITE, and presumably post as well, most HLS grads and most Penn grads went on to very ordinary, lucrative biglaw firms that they hate working for.

I strangely have tons of friends at HLS, all of whom I'd consider to be really smart and hard-working, and none of them got jobs out of law school that were only available to HYS grads, or substantially easier to get for HYS grads. None of them clerked, none of them work in PI, none of them work for Wachtell/Keker/Susman, none of them work for the DOJ.

I have absolutely no idea how the HLS degree/network will play out when they try to get their second, and third, and fourth jobs in the next decades.

I just think that it's difficult to make a $110k bet that you'll do well enough at HLS to have the opportunity to do "great things" out of law school.

Ugh, this is exactly it for me!

So why did you vote HLS then, lol?

[EijiMiyake]

Ugh, this is exactly it for me!

So why did you vote HLS then, lol?

You're still going to have enough debt out of Penn where it is likely that you'd want to work in biglaw for a few years anyway to pay it down.

To me, the advantage of full-tuition scholarships being completely debt free, and that advantage isn't really present in this case.

[cflames7]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

But that's ok, isn't it?

Without any debt... who cares if I don't get big law. I could become a middle school teacher if I wanted.

Or I could land biglaw, and have no debt to pay down. Save for 5 years (rather than paying debt). Retire with a huge savings, and become a middle school teacher then.



No, I don't want to be a middle school teacher, but I am just trying to highlight the flexibility that Penn gives.

[cflames7]

Well, I am going to bed... it is 4am here, I work in 4 hours.

Thank you to those who helped hash this out with me... I tried to take the devil's advocate to every view (and found myself defending Penn more than HLS... meaning most posts supported Harvard). Yet the poll supports Penn. Weird.

Hopefully someone will carry the ball for me and keep this thread kicking and fighting. When I wake up, I hope to see the light and all will be clear.

Night all.

[englawyer]

the poll is lopsided by all the HLS-Held folks who are gunning for your spot

[Na_Swatch]

the poll is lopsided by all the HLS-Held folks who are gunning for your spot

lol

[englawyer]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

But that's ok, isn't it?

Without any debt... who cares if I don't get big law. I could become a middle school teacher if I wanted.

Or I could land biglaw, and have no debt to pay down. Save for 5 years (rather than paying debt). Retire with a huge savings, and become a middle school teacher then.



No, I don't want to be a middle school teacher, but I am just trying to highlight the flexibility that Penn gives.

well kind of. the problem in your theory is that many of the best non-biglaw options are gained FROM biglaw. ex if you want to do in-house work for a corporation, you are better suited to work corporate biglaw first. so by passing on biglaw, you are also putting yourself on a different "track" of a career.

if you want a job as a teacher (or any other non-legal job), law school is not the way, even if it is UPenn for free. you would be better served by getting relevant experience in the field.

[cflames7]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

But that's ok, isn't it?

Without any debt... who cares if I don't get big law. I could become a middle school teacher if I wanted.

Or I could land biglaw, and have no debt to pay down. Save for 5 years (rather than paying debt). Retire with a huge savings, and become a middle school teacher then.



No, I don't want to be a middle school teacher, but I am just trying to highlight the flexibility that Penn gives.

well kind of. the problem in your theory is that many of the best non-biglaw options are gained FROM biglaw. ex if you want to do in-house work for a corporation, you are better suited to work corporate biglaw first. so by passing on biglaw, you are also putting yourself on a different "track" of a career.

if you want a job as a teacher (or any other non-legal job), law school is not the way, even if it is UPenn for free. you would be better served by getting relevant experience in the field.

I was kinda being a melon with my teacher comment.

That is a very interesting and probably very true point about the "track" of career. Miss the big law from the start, miss the track.

More food for thought. Assuming I am right that getting the same job from Penn and Harvard will lead to a difference in savings of $400,000. And assuming a person works for 30 years after law school, then that totals about $13,000 per year as the cost of a Harvard education (or $1000 per month or $100 per day).

What are the odds that a Harvard education will get you a job that pays, on average, $100 more per day, $1000 more per month, or $13000 more per year.

(money isn't the be all, and end all. Flexibility, honor, doing the right thing, helping others, these are all important. But this question just focuses on the money for a moment).

That's it for me! I am going to be bed!

[rayiner]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

But that's ok, isn't it?

Without any debt... who cares if I don't get big law. I could become a middle school teacher if I wanted.

That's retarded. Why waste 3 years and $80k in living expenses to become a middle school teacher? You're ignoring the enormous opportunity costs!

An 80% shot at a career you really want, whether it be biglaw or interesting public interest or whatever, is definitely worth an extra $110k over a 50% shot. Even if you got biglaw from Penn, HLS will give you your pick of firms --- you can even go into lifestyle firms with lower billable hours (which are competitive for obvious reasons), instead of just scrambling for whatever V100 you can get an offer from. That's definitely worth $110k.

I probably would've given different advice a couple of years ago, when 40% of Penn grads were getting V25 jobs and with HLS you were paying a lot for prestige and intangible exit opportunities in the future to turn down $$$ at T14 for HLS. Now, you're paying for real differences in career opportunities, and over a 30 year career $110k is peanuts.

The federal IBR also renders taking the scholarship much less attractive. If you do go into PI, you'll pay about 1 year's salary total, including interest, towards your loans, regardless of how much debt you have. So taking HLS won't stop you from going to a great PI/government job because of debt (that's the whole point of federal IBR). If you do go into biglaw, you'll spend a couple of years longer paying off your loans, but you'll get your choice of firms, which will help exit options down the line, etc.

The only scenario in which it makes sense to take the money at Penn is if you want to do some sort of midlaw practice where tax-free 10 year IBR isn't in play and you won't be able to rely on biglaw $$$ to help pay down your debt.

[vanwinkle]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

But that's ok, isn't it?

Without any debt... who cares if I don't get big law. I could become a middle school teacher if I wanted.

That's retarded. Why waste 3 years and $80k in living expenses to become a middle school teacher? You're ignoring the enormous opportunity costs!

An 80% shot at a career you really want, whether it be biglaw or interesting public interest or whatever, is definitely worth an extra $110k over a 50% shot. Even if you got biglaw from Penn, HLS will give you your pick of firms --- you can even go into lifestyle firms with lower billable hours (which are competitive for obvious reasons), instead of just scrambling for whatever V100 you can get an offer from. That's definitely worth $110k.

I probably would've given different advice a couple of years ago, when 40% of Penn grads were getting V25 jobs and with HLS you were paying a lot for prestige and intangible exit opportunities in the future to turn down $$$ at T14 for HLS. Now, you're paying for real differences in career opportunities, and over a 30 year career $110k is peanuts.

The federal IBR also renders taking the scholarship much less attractive. If you do go into PI, you'll pay about 1 year's salary total, including interest, towards your loans, regardless of how much debt you have. So taking HLS won't stop you from going to a great PI/government job because of debt (that's the whole point of federal IBR). If you do go into biglaw, you'll spend a couple of years longer paying off your loans, but you'll get your choice of firms, which will help exit options down the line, etc.

The only scenario in which it makes sense to take the money at Penn is if you want to do some sort of midlaw practice where tax-free 10 year IBR isn't in play and you won't be able to rely on biglaw $$$ to help pay down your debt.

rayiner ftw.

[rayiner]

More food for thought. Assuming I am right that getting the same job from Penn and Harvard will lead to a difference in savings of $400,000. And assuming a person works for 30 years after law school, then that totals about $13,000 per year as the cost of a Harvard education (or $1000 per month or $100 per day).

Where do you get $400k from?

[sfdreaming09]

More food for thought. Assuming I am right that getting the same job from Penn and Harvard will lead to a difference in savings of $400,000. And assuming a person works for 30 years after law school, then that totals about $13,000 per year as the cost of a Harvard education (or $1000 per month or $100 per day).

Where do you get $400k from?

yeah, that's confusing me too.

[EijiMiyake]

I just realized that Van Wrinkle's stats were 2006. I had no idea there was such a disparity between Penn and CCN.