Best Tier 2 Law Schools Forum

[romothesavior]

University of Florida, Florida State, Case Western, Kentucky, L&C, Temple

Add the following (in no specific order): Chicago-Kent, Houston, SMU, San Francisco, Hofstra, Pacific, Santa Clara, Buffalo, St. John's, Syracuse, Brooklyn, Oregon, Loyola Chicago, DePaul, Loyola L.A., USD, Tennessee, Pittsburgh, Northeastern, Rutgers (both), Denver, Marquette.

I think Loyola L.A., Miami, Florida St., USD, Brooklyn, Temple, Case, and Chicago-Kent are the cream of the T2, i.e. they should be T1. Florida is always on the cusp of T1 or ranked within it.

You just listed almost half of the T2, including all three T2 schools in Chicago. That's ridiculous.

RC Fail. Not ridiculous. The truth is, half of the T2's happen to be very good schools that can be argued as T1's. And the schools I listed are all very good schools. Secondly, I amplified my answer by selecting eight schools I think are the "elite T2's".

Not even close to a RC fail. I saw what you did there by "amplifying" certain schools, but I still think it is crazy to say all three T2 Chicago schools are underrated. They are all really far down on the Chicago pecking order (U of C, NW, UIUC, ND, Mich, etc.)

FWIW, I think there is a point in the 20s or so when schools stop having national reach and people should purely consider region over ranking. I agree with posters who say it is T3>T6>T10>T14>T25ish?>Tier 2 and beyond. Take UNC-Chapel Hill for example. The VAST majority of their students remain in the southeast, and most of them in the Carolinas. Picking UNC over, say Case Western, would be silly if you wanted to be in the industrial Midwest, despite the big difference in rankings.

So I don't really think this thread is all that useful. TITCR:

The T2 that is the best/only law school in its region and allows you to graduate with a manageable debt load.

[PDaddy]

Georgetown

Blatant anti-Texas trolling.

Moving on ... I'm seriously thinking of attending Pitt on scholarship. While I am cognizant of its Tier 2 status, I appreciate its location in the Mid-Atlantic, and the prospect of greatly minimizing my debt by attending. My mind isn't made up yet; I am anxiously awaiting future decisions. However, if the decision had to be made right now, with the decisions and informative that I have at present, my immediate impulse is to say Pitt.

Of course, SMU could disrupt all of this thinking tomorrow. Hi, SMU.

I mentioned SMU above...and before any of my edits.

[PDaddy]

Not even close to a RC fail. I saw what you did there by "amplifying" certain schools, but I still think it is crazy to say all three T2 Chicago schools are underrated. They are all really far down on the Chicago pecking order (U of C, NW, UIUC, ND, Mich, etc.)

FWIW, I think there is a point in the 20s or so when schools stop having national reach and people should purely consider region over ranking. I agree with posters who say it is T3>T6>T10>T14>T25ish?>Tier 2 and beyond. Take UNC-Chapel Hill for example. The VAST majority of their students remain in the southeast, and most of them in the Carolinas. Picking UNC over, say Case Western, would be silly if you wanted to be in the industrial Midwest, despite the big difference in rankings.

So I don't really think this thread is all that useful. TITCR:

The T2 that is the best/only law school in its region and allows you to graduate with a manageable debt load.

That's exactly my point. Schools are perceived as inherently "better" than others when it's all about choice...preferences, whether regional, program-related or other. And what might happen with Chicago-Kent if it was in, say, Cleveland, OH? We can only speculate, but I think it would be short-sighted to assume that it would be another Cleveland State. In other words, law schools, which are subject to more rankings scrutiny than other graduate programs, may be the least "rankable". Law rankings are totally misleading.

[darknightbegins]

University of Florida, Florida State, Case Western, Kentucky, L&C, Temple

Add the following (in no specific order): Chicago-Kent, Houston, SMU, San Francisco, Hofstra, Pacific, Santa Clara, Buffalo, St. John's, Syracuse, Brooklyn, Oregon, Loyola Chicago, DePaul, Loyola L.A., USD, Tennessee, Pittsburgh, Northeastern, Rutgers (both), Denver, Marquette.

I think Loyola L.A., Miami, Florida St., USD, Brooklyn, Temple, Case, and Chicago-Kent are the cream of the T2, i.e. they should be T1. Florida is always on the cusp of T1 or ranked within it.

It is fun arguing with people on this site sometimes. It does remind me of why I'm not cut out for NYC biglaw....its not work ethic, just don't have the personality to deal with the types you see on this site on a day to day basis. It's just funny how many people I know are perfectly satisfied with schools such as Miami, Penn St, Villanova etc, but on here people think they're all a piece of crap.

The perception that law schools are actually "better" than other law schools is partially artificial. They are not made alike and, thus, offer different advantages, but you can get a really good legal education at probably 100 of the schools out there, and a pretty good one at another 50 schools. The job offerings are mostly better as you improve in rank. I wonder what would happen in USNWR suddenly ranked Indiana at #12. All of a sudden, 45% of its graduates would be getting Biglaw. The lazy hiring partners at Biglaw firms are driving the whole thing.

Miami is not among the best 50-100 schools. This is coming from someone who got accepted into the U back in November and seriously considered attending until recently. Santa Clara is also not about the top TT schools. As well as some other schools you listed but I don't want to waist the time outlining each one.

Florida is probably the best TT school. It has portability through Florida, which is a pretty big state, and Florida places as well or almost as well as the U in Miami. So combine Florida's cost if you are an in state resident with the fact that it is the best school in the state it is in and the state it is in is large and has one of the biggest cities of the country in it Florida is a clear win.

[PDaddy]

Miami is not among the best 50-100 schools. This is coming from someone who got accepted into the U back in November and seriously considered attending until recently. Santa Clara is also not about the top TT schools. As well as some other schools you listed but I don't want to waist the time outlining each one.

Florida is probably the best TT school. It has portability through Florida, which is a pretty big state, and Florida places as well or almost as well as the U in Miami. So combine Florida's cost if you are an in state resident with the fact that it is the best school in the state it is in and the state it is in is large and has one of the biggest cities of the country in it Florida is a clear win.

Florida has been listed as a T1 in the past and is generally considered a T1 school, which is why I did not mention it. Miami is a well regarded school, and some rankers put it as high as 40 or so. It also has produced the 18th most super-500 lawyers in the country. Besides, I would love to hear you tell law professor Susan Estrich (of USC) she's wrong about the schools I mentioned. She mentions some of them in her book. Santa Clara can be argued for or against.

Your arguments would no doubt be based on job prospects, and that is where the problem is. USNWR could put any school at #20 in the nation and its OCI and overall job prospects would instantly improve. Hence, the tail is wagging the dog in these matters. The relative job prospects of each school have little to do with the relative educational qualities of the schools.

And for the record, most of us don't know squat about any of these schools but are somewhat qualified to speak on the ones we have visited. And we may have done some research, but that doesn't give us the right to slam the schools either.

The schools I have listed and some I did not, are all reportedly very good schools. They just don't have the same job prospects as the so-called top schools. But plenty of Lawyers from T2 and even TTT have wiped up the floor(s) with HYS ass. Two of the most brilliant lawyers I know (both accomplished and both rich beyond belief!) are from so-called T2 schools. I am from a major city, and many of the top attorneys there are from one lower T2 and another TTT on the other side of the state, as well as a now defunct law school from the state.

[darknightbegins]

Miami is not among the best 50-100 schools. This is coming from someone who got accepted into the U back in November and seriously considered attending until recently. Santa Clara is also not about the top TT schools. As well as some other schools you listed but I don't want to waist the time outlining each one.

Florida is probably the best TT school. It has portability through Florida, which is a pretty big state, and Florida places as well or almost as well as the U in Miami. So combine Florida's cost if you are an in state resident with the fact that it is the best school in the state it is in and the state it is in is large and has one of the biggest cities of the country in it Florida is a clear win.

Florida has been listed as a T1 in the past and is generally considered a T1 school, which is why I did not mention it. Miami is a well regarded school, and some rankers put it as high as 40 or so. It also has produced the 18th most super-500 lawyers in the country. Santa Clara can be argued for or against.

Your arguments would no doubt be based on job prospects, and that is where the problem is. USNWR could put any school at #20 in the nation and its OCI and overall job prospects would instantly improve. Hence, the tail is wagging the dog in these matters. The relative job prospects of each school have little to do with the relative educational qualities of the schools.

And for the record, most of us don't know squat about any of these schools but are qualified to speak somewhat on the ones we have visited.

The schools I have listed and some I did not, are all reportedly very good schools. They just don't have the same job prospects as the so-called top schools. But plenty of Lawyers from T2 and even TTT have wiped up the floor(s) with HYS ass. Two of the most brilliant lawyers I know (both accomplished and both rich beyond belief!) are from so-called T2 schools. I am from a major city, and many of the top attorneys there are from one lower T2 and another TTT on the other side of the state, as well as a now defunct law school from the state.

Look this isn't a pissing contest about whether some TT students are as good or better than some T1 students, it is about what school is the best Tier 2 school. I'll be attending a Tier 2 school most likely, unless that William and Mary wait list comes through but I seriously doubt it after looking at the TLS waitlist for that school, so I am not here to bash on the schools I will likely attend. However I am realistic. Do I think a school ranked 40 is a whole lot better than a school ranked in the 70s or 80s? No I don't.

I have always considered Florida to be a TT school.But if you want to take that away from me then I would argue UConn (currently ranked 52), as well as Case and ASU are among the top Tier 2 schools. Case and ASU give you access to rather large markets and are on par or nearly on par with the schools that rank higher in their state, Ohio State and University of Arizona. UConn faces more competition in its state, obviously, but I have always heard that it does well in the northeast.

After these schools I would put the Florida State, Miami, LSU, Nebraska (who I think will return to TT this year) Oklahoma's of the world. FSU does well in its state, but seems to be third in Miami behind the U and Florida. After that I think FSU does reasonable throughout the rest of the state. Miami has access to Miami obviously, price though really hurts Miami as I think it is just not worth the money. LSU owns its state, has decent tuition, has access to whatever is left of New Orleans and can place in Texas. OU can also place in Texas and owns its own state, tuition is also reasonable. Nebraska has cheap tuition, a decent school, and does well with its state and the immediate area.


I hear mixed things about the Rutger schools. I don't put them as high because of their cost and the fact their markets are a bit more competitive than the other schools I listed. Nevada is alright but it has Las Vegas and then a bench of dirt in its state.

[TCScrutinizer]

Georgetown

Cornell.

[GatorBait09]

Miami is not among the best 50-100 schools. This is coming from someone who got accepted into the U back in November and seriously considered attending until recently. Santa Clara is also not about the top TT schools. As well as some other schools you listed but I don't want to waist the time outlining each one.

Florida is probably the best TT school. It has portability through Florida, which is a pretty big state, and Florida places as well or almost as well as the U in Miami. So combine Florida's cost if you are an in state resident with the fact that it is the best school in the state it is in and the state it is in is large and has one of the biggest cities of the country in it Florida is a clear win.

Florida has been listed as a T1 in the past and is generally considered a T1 school, which is why I did not mention it. Miami is a well regarded school, and some rankers put it as high as 40 or so. It also has produced the 18th most super-500 lawyers in the country. Besides, I would love to hear you tell law professor Susan Estrich (of USC) she's wrong about the schools I mentioned. She mentions some of them in her book. Santa Clara can be argued for or against.

Your arguments would no doubt be based on job prospects, and that is where the problem is. USNWR could put any school at #20 in the nation and its OCI and overall job prospects would instantly improve. Hence, the tail is wagging the dog in these matters. The relative job prospects of each school have little to do with the relative educational qualities of the schools.

And for the record, most of us don't know squat about any of these schools but are somewhat qualified to speak on the ones we have visited. And we may have done some research, but that doesn't give us the right to slam the schools either.

The schools I have listed and some I did not, are all reportedly very good schools. They just don't have the same job prospects as the so-called top schools. But plenty of Lawyers from T2 and even TTT have wiped up the floor(s) with HYS ass. Two of the most brilliant lawyers I know (both accomplished and both rich beyond belief!) are from so-called T2 schools. I am from a major city, and many of the top attorneys there are from one lower T2 and another TTT on the other side of the state, as well as a now defunct law school from the state.

UM isn't even highly regarded in Florida. If you want to talk about the best in-state school after UF, it's FSU hands down. UM used to be an amazing law school. It was probably best in the state in the 70s, and unfortunately that's where most of the super-500 lawyers come from.

I'd have to agree with FSU, ASU, and Uconn all being the superior T2s with Cinn and Case being decent choices as well.

[BoomBoom1986]

Temple is the answer here. It owns its market (what, fifth largest in the nation?), b/c most UPenn grads flee to NYC. Plus, the tuition is dirt cheap even for out-of-state students. In fact, it's out-of-state tuition is still cheaper than Nova (by like 5k) and its more generous with money. I can't think of another T2 that dominates a top five market.

[firebreathingliberal]

I'm curious as to why so many TLSers consider Case over Cincinnati?

[kissy]

Both of the Rutgers are pretty good and underrated in my opinion.

[LegalGENius]

Miami is not among the best 50-100 schools. This is coming from someone who got accepted into the U back in November and seriously considered attending until recently. Santa Clara is also not about the top TT schools. As well as some other schools you listed but I don't want to waist the time outlining each one.

Florida is probably the best TT school. It has portability through Florida, which is a pretty big state, and Florida places as well or almost as well as the U in Miami. So combine Florida's cost if you are an in state resident with the fact that it is the best school in the state it is in and the state it is in is large and has one of the biggest cities of the country in it Florida is a clear win.

Florida has been listed as a T1 in the past and is generally considered a T1 school, which is why I did not mention it. Miami is a well regarded school, and some rankers put it as high as 40 or so. It also has produced the 18th most super-500 lawyers in the country. Besides, I would love to hear you tell law professor Susan Estrich (of USC) she's wrong about the schools I mentioned. She mentions some of them in her book. Santa Clara can be argued for or against.

Your arguments would no doubt be based on job prospects, and that is where the problem is. USNWR could put any school at #20 in the nation and its OCI and overall job prospects would instantly improve. Hence, the tail is wagging the dog in these matters. The relative job prospects of each school have little to do with the relative educational qualities of the schools.

And for the record, most of us don't know squat about any of these schools but are somewhat qualified to speak on the ones we have visited. And we may have done some research, but that doesn't give us the right to slam the schools either.

The schools I have listed and some I did not, are all reportedly very good schools. They just don't have the same job prospects as the so-called top schools. But plenty of Lawyers from T2 and even TTT have wiped up the floor(s) with HYS ass. Two of the most brilliant lawyers I know (both accomplished and both rich beyond belief!) are from so-called T2 schools. I am from a major city, and many of the top attorneys there are from one lower T2 and another TTT on the other side of the state, as well as a now defunct law school from the state.

UM isn't even highly regarded in Florida. If you want to talk about the best in-state school after UF, it's FSU hands down. UM used to be an amazing law school. It was probably best in the state in the 70s, and unfortunately that's where most of the super-500 lawyers come from.

I'd have to agree with FSU, ASU, and Uconn all being the superior T2s with Cinn and Case being decent choices as well.

LMAO okay, GatorBait09!! Obviously you are anti-UM and decided on going to UF or FSU. Get your facts straight. Just because YOU don't hold Miami Law in high-esteem does not mean it's not a great law school and very well regarded in Florida. Clinical opportunities, job prospects, and networking connections are far $$$uperior in Miami.

edit: Btw, the firm I worked in this summer had about 15 clerks in all. 6 UMiami, 4 UF, 2 FSU, 3 misc. (Stetson, Nova, etc.) They all said if you wanted a job with a big private firm you had to leave Gainesville/Tallahassee for "where you really wanted to end up practicing" which for many of them was Miami, FL. IMO, It seems counterintuitive to seek a degree in a small college town with limited prospects only to HOPE that the firm that hires you elsewhere places a much greater weight on UF/FSU as opposed to another Florida school. Just sayin'!

[fcowrx]

LMAO okay, GatorBait09!! Obviously you are anti-UM and decided on going to UF or FSU. Get your facts straight. Just because YOU don't hold Miami Law in high-esteem does not mean it's not a great law school and very well regarded in Florida. Clinical opportunities, job prospects, and networking connections are far $$$uperior in Miami.

edit: Btw, the firm I worked in this summer had about 15 clerks in all. 6 UMiami, 4 UF, 2 FSU, 3 misc. (Stetson, Nova, etc.) They all said if you wanted a job with a big private firm you had to leave Gainesville/Tallahassee for "where you really wanted to end up practicing" which for many of them was Miami, FL. IMO, It seems counterintuitive to seek a degree in a small college town with limited prospects only to HOPE that the firm that hires you elsewhere places a much greater weight on UF/FSU as opposed to another Florida school. Just sayin'!

While I agree that UM places extremely well in Miami, at sticker it's just not worth it IF you've been admitted to UF. You would be no worse off than a UM grad down here (and better off everywhere north of say Ft. Laudy) and with substantially less debt than you attend UM.

[Tuyarp]

Miami is not among the best 50-100 schools. This is coming from someone who got accepted into the U back in November and seriously considered attending until recently. Santa Clara is also not about the top TT schools. As well as some other schools you listed but I don't want to waist the time outlining each one.

Florida is probably the best TT school. It has portability through Florida, which is a pretty big state, and Florida places as well or almost as well as the U in Miami. So combine Florida's cost if you are an in state resident with the fact that it is the best school in the state it is in and the state it is in is large and has one of the biggest cities of the country in it Florida is a clear win.

Florida has been listed as a T1 in the past and is generally considered a T1 school, which is why I did not mention it. Miami is a well regarded school, and some rankers put it as high as 40 or so. It also has produced the 18th most super-500 lawyers in the country. Besides, I would love to hear you tell law professor Susan Estrich (of USC) she's wrong about the schools I mentioned. She mentions some of them in her book. Santa Clara can be argued for or against.

Your arguments would no doubt be based on job prospects, and that is where the problem is. USNWR could put any school at #20 in the nation and its OCI and overall job prospects would instantly improve. Hence, the tail is wagging the dog in these matters. The relative job prospects of each school have little to do with the relative educational qualities of the schools.

And for the record, most of us don't know squat about any of these schools but are somewhat qualified to speak on the ones we have visited. And we may have done some research, but that doesn't give us the right to slam the schools either.

The schools I have listed and some I did not, are all reportedly very good schools. They just don't have the same job prospects as the so-called top schools. But plenty of Lawyers from T2 and even TTT have wiped up the floor(s) with HYS ass. Two of the most brilliant lawyers I know (both accomplished and both rich beyond belief!) are from so-called T2 schools. I am from a major city, and many of the top attorneys there are from one lower T2 and another TTT on the other side of the state, as well as a now defunct law school from the state.

UM isn't even highly regarded in Florida. If you want to talk about the best in-state school after UF, it's FSU hands down. UM used to be an amazing law school. It was probably best in the state in the 70s, and unfortunately that's where most of the super-500 lawyers come from.

I'd have to agree with FSU, ASU, and Uconn all being the superior T2s with Cinn and Case being decent choices as well.

LMAO okay, GatorBait09!! Obviously you are anti-UM and decided on going to UF or FSU. Get your facts straight. Just because YOU don't hold Miami Law in high-esteem does not mean it's not a great law school and very well regarded in Florida. Clinical opportunities, job prospects, and networking connections are far $$$uperior in Miami.

edit: Btw, the firm I worked in this summer had about 15 clerks in all. 6 UMiami, 4 UF, 2 FSU, 3 misc. (Stetson, Nova, etc.) They all said if you wanted a job with a big private firm you had to leave Gainesville/Tallahassee for "where you really wanted to end up practicing" which for many of them was Miami, FL. IMO, It seems counterintuitive to seek a degree in a small college town with limited prospects only to HOPE that the firm that hires you elsewhere places a much greater weight on UF/FSU as opposed to another Florida school. Just sayin'!

And this is someone who's decided on going to UM.

[Cestjustemoi]

I think Miami, Rutgers Camden, LSU, Temple, and villanova are very good schools. As far as this whole UF FSU UM debate is progressing I will say it's obvious UF is not in the same class as other tier 2s, it's the best in Florida. FSU does offer good opportunities to it's grads but I think most common people in Florida believe Miami has more prestige. I've also know a lot of Stetson grads who have done well for themselves in Tampa. In UF's case I think there something to be said of being the top dog in such a big state.

[Always Credited]

The T2 that is the best/only law school in its region and allows you to graduate with a manageable debt load.

/thread.

[LegalGENius]

Fair enough . I had many other options though, I might add.

[Tuyarp]

It's all good. I didn't mean to knock any of the schools, by the way.

[Palsgraf]

To answer the question above, TLSers prefer Case to U of Cincy because Case does a better job of getting you a job outside of Ohio. Cincy is better for getting a job in state, but who would want to stay in Ohio?

[Always Credited]

Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.

[PDaddy]

Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.

Nope. Like I said. If USNWR decided to change its methodology, and the resulting rankings of the schools by extension, the job prospects of the schools would immediately readjust to line up with the rankings. Except for the obviously esteemed schools, i.e. HYS CC plus Nu, Mich, UVA, Berkeley, Penn, Cornell, GULC and a few others with long standing traditions of excellence, the USNWR rankings has to a degree, "caused" the job prospects at certain schools to be what they are.

Despite having only superficially researched the issue, I'm confident that there is data to back this up. NYU wasn't always a top-5 school, so it could provide some evidence, as could WUSTL, which jumped in rankings suddenly around late 1990's or 2000. If the improved job prospects at such schools appears to follow but mirror their rise in the rankings, we have some pedagogical evidence that schools' job offerings do not infer relative quality, especially when those offerings follow rankings that do not necessarily result from actual changes in quality (not saying this is never the case) and, thus, do not reflect them.

I understand the argument that, ideally, one should have good job prospects out of law school. However, we should remember that the primary and, indeed, only obligation a law school has is to provide a quality education. We impose the employment standards because of the costs associated with the venture, and that is somewhat fair. But it is unfair to accuse T2 schools of not being good schools just by virtue of employers' reliance primarily on schools rankings to sift and screen talent for them (and, they all do, to a large extent).

Making the jump from not having the best employment prospects to not providing quality education is a flawed exercise. That's my point. Most T2's, and a good number of TTT schools, are actually very good schools, and some are great!.

[darknightbegins]

Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.

How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.

[MJMD]

There are a lot of T2 schools that are especially well known for one specialty or another, like Florida for tax law.

[LegalGENius]

Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.

How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.

+10000000

[toolshed]

Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.

Nope. Like I said. If USNWR decided to change its methodology, and the resulting rankings of the schools by extension, the job prospects of the schools would immediately readjust to line up with the rankings. Except for the obviously esteemed schools, i.e. HYS CC plus Nu, Mich, UVA, Berkeley, Penn, Cornell, GULC and a few others with long standing traditions of excellence, the USNWR rankings has to a degree, "caused" the job prospects at certain schools to be what they are.

Despite having only superficially researched the issue, I'm confident that there is data to back this up. NYU wasn't always a top-5 school, so it could provide some evidence, as could WUSTL, which jumped in rankings suddenly around late 1990's or 2000. If the improved job prospects at such schools appears to follow but mirror their rise in the rankings, we have some pedagogical evidence that schools' job offerings do not infer relative quality.

Nope. They may change over time, but they wouldn't change overnight. Firms hire from schools that produce a "known" type of graduate. If Miami became a top 20 school overnight, certain firms that were comfortable hiring in that range wouldn't swoop in and start hiring 50% deep in that class. The wouldn't know what work a Miami graduate produced. Like everything else in the industry, slow change is the only effective change.