Settle for Baylor $$$ or live the dream at Texas????? Forum

[Apple Tree]

Have you thought about retaking the test? A higher score might help you get some $$ from UT and you don't have to pay so much for your dream to come true!

Of course, you might have to wait a year if you decide to reply.

[im_blue]

Here's the deal OP, if you are person that seeks to minimize maximum risk, then you'll be going to Baylor. The absolute worst scenario is that you go to Texas, have an average to poor performance, and get no job. You'll come out of school unemployed and over $200K in debt (includes current debt). Forget living the dream, you'll be living a nightmare at that point. The worst that can happen at Baylor is no job, but with significantly lower debt.

On the other hand, you can take a gamble and go for UT. Hopefully you do well, network with the right people, and secure your dream job. Just know you're taking a big risk. The only thing that would make me hesitate to say Baylor is that I have no idea what job prospects are like for its grads.

Don't forget that the "worst" is much more likely at Baylor.

This, plus the worst case at Baylor is actually losing the scholarship after 1 semester and being $185k in debt compared to UT's $200k. I'd go with UT due to Baylor's scholarship conditions.

[kalvano]

How realistic is keeping that scholarship at Baylor? From my understanding, it's a very, very tough school and the likelihood of losing it is greater than that of keeping it.

Also, while Baylor is well thought-of, it's still 4th on the list of some pretty damn good schools.

You'd basically be taking whatever UT / SMU / UofH students didn't want.

[M_F_F_L]

How realistic is keeping that scholarship at Baylor? From my understanding, it's a very, very tough school and the likelihood of losing it is greater than that of keeping it.

Also, while Baylor is well thought-of, it's still 4th on the list of some pretty damn good schools.

You'd basically be taking whatever UT / SMU / UofH students didn't want.

And that's what I don't understand. If Baylor takes all the rejects, then why is it so damn competitive??? Assuming what you stated above is true, why would undergrads who either aren't smart enough or didn't work hard enough to get into Texas's top schools suddenly decide to be hardcore in their studying? And if it is the rejects, would it really be that hard to keep scholarship? I'm not saying your wrong; it just seems counter-intuitive.

[adrib]

How realistic is keeping that scholarship at Baylor? From my understanding, it's a very, very tough school and the likelihood of losing it is greater than that of keeping it.

Also, while Baylor is well thought-of, it's still 4th on the list of some pretty damn good schools.

You'd basically be taking whatever UT / SMU / UofH students didn't want.

And that's what I don't understand. If Baylor takes all the rejects, then why is it so damn competitive??? Assuming what you stated above is true, why would undergrads who either aren't smart enough or didn't work hard enough to get into Texas's top schools suddenly decide to be hardcore in their studying? And if it is the rejects, would it really be that hard to keep scholarship? I'm not saying your wrong; it just seems counter-intuitive.

I think I read somewhere that, because Baylor grads have to be at the very top of the class to get a good job, they are more cutthroat than, say, UT kids, since in the good ole days top half was good enough for a good job.

[Stringer Bell]

It's super competitive because alot of people there are on some sort of scholarship and I think they have some ridiculous cutoff like top 1/3 for keeping your scholarship.

EDIT: And there is a difference between competitive and cutthroat. While I'm sure UT will be in the former category, Baylor supposedly falls in the latter category.

[soundgardener]

I can provide some anecdotal info since I have a relative that graduated from Baylor law a couple of years ago.

In regards to the competitiveness of the school, I think it has a lot to do with the grading and general culture of the school/professors rather than the students. The grading/curve is brutal. It's my understanding that at Texas and other law similarly ranked law schools, no one really fails. At Baylor you have to absolutely work your ass off to not fail. Fail as in F and you have to take the course again. This engenders a tremendous amount of stress and competition because you're nuts are always on the chopping block. The institution seems to take some sort of perverse pride out of this difficulty, and in reality it probably does make the students learn more. Baylor usually has an extremely high bar passage rate, and the students seem to be better prepared practically right out of school. Unfortunately this does not translate into better job prospects, and it is not something I would want to go through.

In regards to the code of conduct, I'm pretty sure that it is the same for the law students as the undergrad. I just remember my relative telling me about a girl being kicked out because she got pregnant and was unmarried.

As to your situation, I would absolutely go to Texas. Having spent significant time in Waco and Austin, I do not think that I am exaggerating at all when I say that Austin is heaven and Waco is southern Baptist hell. I think the job prospects alone coming out of Texas would absolutely be worth the money.

[lightbulb1986]

.

[14yearplan]

=

[im_blue]

Most likely the OP does not plan on staying in Texas after law school (this is an assumption due to being out of state), but do people really think that someone who graduates at the bottom (or even middle) of the class at UT stands a better chance of employment than someone who graduates at the top of his or her class at Baylor (in or out of Texas)?!?

I've seen some ridiculous straw man arguments on TLS before, but .

[lsatbdog]

How people can dismiss his/her offer so easily, simply blows my mind. am not a Baylor Law troll, but I am in a similar position as th OP and have done some due diligence.


There are many pros and cons for both choices. It depends on the student, not just the school. Now, if you have to pay sticker at both, UT is almost definitely the better choice, but again, some may still choose Baylor for their own reasons and I could never condemn such a decision.

Anyway, there's my two cents. Just sick of reading all the b.s. sometimes. Congrats on being in the position you're in OP, I don't think you can go wrong. Not an easy decision but I wish you the best in arriving at your decision.

Dont agree with everything you wrote, but a hesitant +1

FWIW, I'm also kicking about taking the Baylor full-ride but have some serious worries about the cutthroat nature of the school and the quarter system, and am currently leaning towards other schools where I would have to pay more. I'm trying to get in touch with some current students to see how rough it really is before I decide to turn down a full-ride.

People talking about the strict scholarship requirements need to check out where a 2.5 would put you after one year...http://law.baylor.edu/pdf/CSO/ClassRank ... 09_1Ls.pdf. Let's be honest, if you wind up that low in the class, your best bet is probably to drop out anyway.

Also, considering how competitive the school is, I don't think you are going to be worried about the quality of life in Waco with all the work. I'm also genuinely curious as to why people think that quality of life issues should play a notable role (or really much of any) in a law school decision. No matter what you decide, this should be primarily a financial and employment decision. This is professional school, not undergraduate, where most schools are all pretty similiar when it comes down to it, and things like quality of life are a bit more notable. I'm surprised people are this cavalier about 200K of debt-that is a LOT of money for any law school.

200K is a LOT of money, but 80K is no small sum either. Even with IBR 200K can be pretty restrictive, but I don't think anyone is disputing that you will have better opportunities coming out of Texas. Basically, your not super likely to lose your scholarship at Baylor(and if you do, its probably time to just pull the plug), but you will have to work VERY hard and will not have the same opportunities. Keep in mind that 200K of debt paid off around 10 years is going to be somewhere around 2300-2500 in payments a month-so you are basically going to need either biglaw or to use IBR.

Basically, I think you need to decide what is best for you-what are your ambitions, and how comfortable are you with the limitied prospects (and not negligible amount of debt) Baylor will give you? Conversely, how about the huge debt you would have from Texas? Whether or not you would like Waco etc., are really pretty insignificant when we are talking about this kind of huge financial decision.

Edit: Obviously, the Texas degree is going to give you a bit of portability, while Baylor is going to mean you should be ok with living in Texas, one other thing to consider.

[Stringer Bell]

Where is Baylor ranked insofar as trial advocacy in comparison to UT? Baylor is #7 in the country and highly respected for preparing its students for the courtroom.

Tied with South Texas College of Law and behind number one Stetson.

[14yearplan]

Most likely the OP does not plan on staying in Texas after law school (this is an assumption due to being out of state), but do people really think that someone who graduates at the bottom (or even middle) of the class at UT stands a better chance of employment (hands down) than someone who graduates at the top of his or her class at Baylor (in or out of Texas)?!?

I've seen some ridiculous straw man arguments on TLS before, but .

Maybe I should have added the above, regardless. . .

Imagine you are in Los Angeles, in charge of hiring at a law firm, and have three applicants to choose from: 1) Loyola grad, middle of the class; 2) UT grad, bottom/middle of the class; 3) Baylor grad, top of class. Just on this criteria alone, you would be foolish to rule out the Baylor grad. Just as foolish as it is to quickly dismiss the prospect of a full scholly (+aid) at Baylor vs. sticker at UT. The "argument," as you put it, needs no further elaboration to be valid.

If one refutes the weaker proposition (that outside of Texas, a graduate of UT in the bottom/middle of the class has better employment prospects than someone graduating at the top of his or her class from Baylor), the refutation is valid and does not fit the definition of a "straw man" argument.

It is my further contention that if you were an employer in say, Houston, with the same scenario as above, you would be equally foolish to rule out the Baylor grad--just as foolish as it is to quickly dismiss the prospect of a full scholly (+aid) at Baylor vs. sticker at UT. So refuting the stronger position definitely does not fit the definition of a "straw man" argument.

[A'nold]

1. The Baylor scholly has strings attached and does not cover living expenses.... so it is not a debt free alternative. It will result in a lower debt load after graduation, but you can't say the magnitude of the difference with certainty due to the strings.
2. The additional job prospects that you will have with a UT degree are worth more than the money you will save by going to Baylor, even if the full tuition scholly stands for the duration.
3. The quality of life during your 3 years of law school will be higher in Austin.
4. You will have many more networking opportunities in Austin which further reinforces point #2.

I am not a Baylor Law troll

As evidenced by your full page of pro-Baylor from the guidebook drivel?

Which is the only ABA-approved school without a brief writing requirement for its students. . .UT Austin.

UT is my new favorite school and I now have much respect for that holy grail of law schools.

[14yearplan]

1. The Baylor scholly has strings attached and does not cover living expenses.... so it is not a debt free alternative. It will result in a lower debt load after graduation, but you can't say the magnitude of the difference with certainty due to the strings.
2. The additional job prospects that you will have with a UT degree are worth more than the money you will save by going to Baylor, even if the full tuition scholly stands for the duration.
3. The quality of life during your 3 years of law school will be higher in Austin.
4. You will have many more networking opportunities in Austin which further reinforces point #2.

I am not a Baylor Law troll

As evidenced by your full page of pro-Baylor from the guidebook drivel?

Which is the only ABA-approved school without a brief writing requirement for its students. . .UT Austin.

UT is my new favorite school and I now have much respect for that holy grail of law schools.

lol

Not quite pro-Baylor. . .pro-"making an informed decision rather than outright dismissing a $120,000 scholarship to a pretty good school" (given the fact that $120,000 is a lot of money to the OP and some other people).

Oh, how the real world eludes some.

[Esc]

1. The Baylor scholly has strings attached and does not cover living expenses.... so it is not a debt free alternative. It will result in a lower debt load after graduation, but you can't say the magnitude of the difference with certainty due to the strings.
2. The additional job prospects that you will have with a UT degree are worth more than the money you will save by going to Baylor, even if the full tuition scholly stands for the duration.
3. The quality of life during your 3 years of law school will be higher in Austin.
4. You will have many more networking opportunities in Austin which further reinforces point #2.

I am not a Baylor Law troll

As evidenced by your full page of pro-Baylor from the guidebook drivel?

Which is the only ABA-approved school without a brief writing requirement for its students. . .UT Austin.

UT is my new favorite school and I now have much respect for that holy grail of law schools.

lol

Not quite pro-Baylor. . .pro-"making an informed decision rather than outright dismissing a $120,000 scholarship to a pretty good school" (given the fact that $120,000 is a lot of money to the OP and some other people).

Oh, how the real world eludes some.

OP wasn't given a $120,000 scholarship to a pretty good school. He was given a $120,000 scholarship to Baylor

[kew]

I also have a full ride to baylor and am really considering some other schools, not as highly ranked at Texas though. I do think Texas would be the better choice however I think people have been unnecessarily hard on Baylor. When I was there a few weeks ago I asked both the admissions staff and some students about scholarships and no one knew of anyone losing a scholarship. If they give you a full ride hopefully you should be able to stay in the top 2/3rds of you're class. Secondly Waco really doesn't seem that horrible, obviously its no Austin but it could be worse. From all the students I talked to it does sound like a very difficult program, especially the third year because of the practice court you have to take. But I like everyone else on here do not think that the hard work necessarily pays off...

[kalvano]

Texas itself is a black hole of suck, but Waco is like crossing the event horizon and never being able to escape.

And Baylor, as compared to say St. Mary's or South Texas, is a fine choice. As compared to UT, or even SMU / UofH...it's not even close.

A more interesting question for me is why the OP didn't apply to SMU? It has a better reputation than Baylor, and if you have numbers good enough for full ride at Baylor or admittance to UT, then SMU would throw some good money your way. Not full ride, but they are pretty generous. My numbers got a UT ding, and I still got pretty fair money from SMU.

Regardless, everyone I have spoken to about Baylor, including current students and recent grads, are not terribly enthused about the school or their experiences there. While the school is fairly solid, spending three years there is fairly miserable, both in terms of the area and the atmosphere of the school.

Also to consider, opportunities available from Baylor...the location will be a hindrance. You aren't close to anywhere, and Waco is not a major city. I can't say for sure, but I would think that internship opportunities, as well as other experiences, would be harder to come by. UT dominates Austin, and to a fair extent Texas in general. Want to do public interest work, maybe get an internship with the PD or DA? If you're at UT and want to do it in Austin, I'd imagine it's fairly easy to manage. Same for Houston with U of H, and Dallas for SMU. They are big cities with moderate-to-large legal markets that are dominated by the schools within those markets. Waco is, well, Waco. It's small, not a big market, and I would have to think that opportunities around there would be much more limited.

[hellokitty]

Follow your dreams. Go to Texas.

[Sangiovese]

Most likely the OP does not plan on staying in Texas after law school (this is an assumption due to being out of state), but do people really think that someone who graduates at the bottom (or even middle) of the class at UT stands a better chance of employment (hands down) than someone who graduates at the top of his or her class at Baylor (in or out of Texas)?!?

I've seen some ridiculous straw man arguments on TLS before, but .

Maybe I should have added the above, regardless. . .

Imagine you are in Los Angeles, in charge of hiring at a law firm, and have three applicants to choose from: 1) Loyola grad, middle of the class; 2) UT grad, bottom/middle of the class; 3) Baylor grad, top of class. Just on this criteria alone, you would be foolish to rule out the Baylor grad. Just as foolish as it is to quickly dismiss the prospect of a full scholly (+aid) at Baylor vs. sticker at UT. The "argument," as you put it, needs no further elaboration to be valid.

If one refutes the weaker proposition (that outside of Texas, a graduate of UT in the bottom/middle of the class has better employment prospects than someone graduating at the top of his or her class from Baylor), the refutation is valid and does not fit the definition of a "straw man" argument.

It is my further contention that if you were an employer in say, Houston, with the same scenario as above, you would be equally foolish to rule out the Baylor grad--just as foolish as it is to quickly dismiss the prospect of a full scholly (+aid) at Baylor vs. sticker at UT. So refuting the stronger position definitely does not fit the definition of a "straw man" argument.

Your entire argument (in this post and others) centers on the job prospects for someone at the TOP of the class at Baylor vs someone at the median or bottom of UT.

Do you really think that someone who got a full ride to Baylor is automatically going to be at the top of their class? After all, by your own stats, they give those to 13.6% of their incoming class. What are you considering the "top" and do you think everyone who got a full tuition scholarship offer will beat every person that didn't?

And if they are capable of being in the top of the class at Baylor, then I would say that they would also be able to do well enough at UT to at least avoid being at the bottom of the class (which is what your argument really hinges on).

The OP was about risk/reward. Does the potential reward of attending UT justify the risk of the additional debt? You are trying to skew the conversation by stating that there is no increased reward for going to UT - and you offer BS comparisons between top of the class at baylor vs bottom of the class at UT as the justification.

[Sangiovese]

1. The Baylor scholly has strings attached and does not cover living expenses.... so it is not a debt free alternative. It will result in a lower debt load after graduation, but you can't say the magnitude of the difference with certainty due to the strings.
2. The additional job prospects that you will have with a UT degree are worth more than the money you will save by going to Baylor, even if the full tuition scholly stands for the duration.
3. The quality of life during your 3 years of law school will be higher in Austin.
4. You will have many more networking opportunities in Austin which further reinforces point #2.

How people can dismiss his/her offer so easily, simply blows my mind. This is not directed towards the poster of the above quote per se, but to all those that have offered their uninformed, ignorant advice to Baylor scholarship recipients throughout this forum. And before anyone shows his or her lack of maturity with another quick response, I only ask that you read this in its entirety before jumping to conclusions. I am not a Baylor Law troll, but I am in a similar position as th OP and have done some due diligence.

According to statistics from third party sites, Baylor's student body consists of 13.6% full-tuition scholarship recipients. Moreover, Baylor's student body also has a 13.6% rate for students receiving grants above 100% tuition, according to USNWR. Maybe this is hard to figure for most uninformed people who like to shoot off-the-cuff, inane remarks; however, I'm pretty sure it means that the OP probably (sarcasm added) will have some extra aid to cover living expenses. . .tough math. . .but I think so, huh?!?

<SNIP>

In your haste to attack my "uninformed, ignorant advice" your "due diligence" must have missed the fact that the OP stated that his offer only covered tuition.

I'm "pretty sure it means the OP probably (sarcasm added) will <NOT> have some extra aid to cover living expenses."

But thanks for playing. We have some nice consolation prizes for you...

[M_F_F_L]

Texas itself is a black hole of suck, but Waco is like crossing the event horizon and never being able to escape.

And Baylor, as compared to say St. Mary's or South Texas, is a fine choice. As compared to UT, or even SMU / UofH...it's not even close.

A more interesting question for me is why the OP didn't apply to SMU? It has a better reputation than Baylor, and if you have numbers good enough for full ride at Baylor or admittance to UT, then SMU would throw some good money your way. Not full ride, but they are pretty generous. My numbers got a UT ding, and I still got pretty fair money from SMU.

Regardless, everyone I have spoken to about Baylor, including current students and recent grads, are not terribly enthused about the school or their experiences there. While the school is fairly solid, spending three years there is fairly miserable, both in terms of the area and the atmosphere of the school.

Also to consider, opportunities available from Baylor...the location will be a hindrance. You aren't close to anywhere, and Waco is not a major city. I can't say for sure, but I would think that internship opportunities, as well as other experiences, would be harder to come by. UT dominates Austin, and to a fair extent Texas in general. Want to do public interest work, maybe get an internship with the PD or DA? If you're at UT and want to do it in Austin, I'd imagine it's fairly easy to manage. Same for Houston with U of H, and Dallas for SMU. They are big cities with moderate-to-large legal markets that are dominated by the schools within those markets. Waco is, well, Waco. It's small, not a big market, and I would have to think that opportunities around there would be much more limited.

I did apply to SMU...just haven't heard back yet. Assuming I do get some money, I'll have to factor it into my decision as well.

As far as Waco is concerned, I'm not too worried about it. I grew up in a town smaller than most people can possibly fathom, so most cities are going to be a significant upgrade. Yes, I love Austin, and I believe it is much better city, but I'm willing to stick it out for three years in Waco if necessary. On the other hand, you have a good point about internship placement.

My biggest concern is still debt. If I knew without a shadow of a doubt that paying off my debt would not be a significant financial burden regardless of which I choose, I could make my decision right now. However, in this market, I have more than a shadow of a doubt. Still, I really, really want to go to UT...

Again, thank you all for your input. It's definitely going to help me in my decision.

[im_blue]

Most likely the OP does not plan on staying in Texas after law school (this is an assumption due to being out of state), but do people really think that someone who graduates at the bottom (or even middle) of the class at UT stands a better chance of employment (hands down) than someone who graduates at the top of his or her class at Baylor (in or out of Texas)?!?

I've seen some ridiculous straw man arguments on TLS before, but .

Maybe I should have added the above, regardless. . .

Imagine you are in Los Angeles, in charge of hiring at a law firm, and have three applicants to choose from: 1) Loyola grad, middle of the class; 2) UT grad, bottom/middle of the class; 3) Baylor grad, top of class. Just on this criteria alone, you would be foolish to rule out the Baylor grad. Just as foolish as it is to quickly dismiss the prospect of a full scholly (+aid) at Baylor vs. sticker at UT. The "argument," as you put it, needs no further elaboration to be valid.

If one refutes the weaker proposition (that outside of Texas, a graduate of UT in the bottom/middle of the class has better employment prospects than someone graduating at the top of his or her class from Baylor), the refutation is valid and does not fit the definition of a "straw man" argument.

It is my further contention that if you were an employer in say, Houston, with the same scenario as above, you would be equally foolish to rule out the Baylor grad--just as foolish as it is to quickly dismiss the prospect of a full scholly (+aid) at Baylor vs. sticker at UT. So refuting the stronger position definitely does not fit the definition of a "straw man" argument.

Your entire argument (in this post and others) centers on the job prospects for someone at the TOP of the class at Baylor vs someone at the median or bottom of UT.

Do you really think that someone who got a full ride to Baylor is automatically going to be at the top of their class? After all, by your own stats, they give those to 13.6% of their incoming class. What are you considering the "top" and do you think everyone who got a full tuition scholarship offer will beat every person that didn't?

And if they are capable of being in the top of the class at Baylor, then I would say that they would also be able to do well enough at UT to at least avoid being at the bottom of the class (which is what your argument really hinges on).

The OP was about risk/reward. Does the potential reward of attending UT justify the risk of the additional debt? You are trying to skew the conversation by stating that there is no increased reward for going to UT - and you offer BS comparisons between top of the class at baylor vs bottom of the class at UT as the justification.

+1

[YEM]

...
My biggest concern is still debt. If I knew without a shadow of a doubt that paying off my debt would not be a significant financial burden regardless of which I choose, I could make my decision right now. However, in this market, I have more than a shadow of a doubt. Still, I really, really want to go to UT...

1) Normal recessions in a normal business cycle last 16-24 months. We're already at the top end of that period. Granted, this is not a normal business cycle and the govt is interfering enough to keep the recession rolling. Still, by May of 2013, the economy will have righted itself and the money should be moving again. A lot of people may be applying to law school to hide from the current economy, but the people who should be the most worried are the 3Ls trying to find work right now. If, in three years, the economy is still in the toilet, then we'll all have bigger problems than a Sallie Mae shakedown.

2) No JD is a golden ticket; risk is inherent from HYS top to TTT bottom. Attempting to avoid that risk w/a conditional tuition scholarship in Waco is a fool's erand.


Now go enjoy Austin.