UC Irvine $$ v. USC Forum

[ViP]

+1, not to mention the fact that law school prestige is probably more important than B-school prestige, since MBA hiring also takes into account connections and work experience.

I have a completely distorted perception of the prestige of Irvine. From some people I'm hearing that it has no chance and will eventually land in the T50 if it's lucky, then you have Chemerinsky & Co. assuring us (and putting his reputation on the fact) that it will be a T20 "in any capacity the first time it is ranked". What does the legal community really think? From lay-perspective, USC undergrad is clearly superior to Irvine, does that matter?

You know that in order to be a T20 it has to overtake well established schools. There is no imaginable way that it could overtake UCLA/USC and extremely doubtful that it could overtake BU, Emory or WUSTL, or even GW, BC or Fordham... schools that have been around for a long time and have a great reputation in the legal field.

Very true. I think it's silly to try to predict exactly where Irvine will fall in its US News debut. However, we all know that the rankings are very superficial. If the numbers add up, you hit the jackpot.

If Irvine indeed keeps the median numbers as high or higher as the first-year numbers, if the school manages to maintain a competitive acceptance rate (not the deceiving 4% of last year, but realistic), and if the first-year class nails employment upon graduation, you have the formula for a great US News debut. These are hardly impossible to achieve, by the way.

Judge/Lawyer assessment will be negligible because they don't have enough info to answer positively or negatively. Peer assessment (deriving from law school deans and administrations) however, is likely to be very strong considering the high prestige that Chemerinsky and his faculty have in the world of law schools.

[arhmcpo]

I know UCI is tempting but there are so many things that have to right for them - in order for you to be in as good of position there as you would automatically be at USC.

It seems like you'll ultimately be swayed based on your experiences at the Admitted Students day.

On the bright-side this is a good dilemma to have, OP

[mhernton]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. UCI Law is a pipe dream and a very good marketing job. Everyone assumes that it will be ranked in the top 30 some time soon. It takes time to develop a reputation. I'm a graduate of a similar MBA program. I'm part of the second graduating class of UCSD's MBA program. The education was top notched, and the school is positioning itself as an alternative to Stanford and MIT. I took a class from a nobel laureate. All of that aside, the economy crashed and reality sunk in. Companies that hire MBA's hire from pipelines. Goldman Sachs loves the Harvard and Wharton types etc. So when applicant is coming from an unknown program, they are an unknown quantity, and therefore not likely to be hired. I got the job I got after graduation because of my work experience, and undergraduate degree. Law Firms are businesses. They hire from pipelines. UCI has no alumni to grease the skids. The OCI process will be polite, but why hire from UCI when UCLA, USC, USD, Boalt, Hastings, Stanford, Loyola have graduates seeking employment. BTW all of those schools and others have alumni pulling for each other. I hope I'm wrong, but when you have a choice between USC and UCI, why take the chance that I am. The other thing is that I'm already experiencing it. Good Luck.

This is some great insight, I think I read your past posts about Irvine where you brought up something similar. I would say that no matter how great and educational your law school experience is, obviously we dont go to law school to get our jollies, but to get employed. And I too am suspecting a disjunct between 70 employers agreeing to interview the first class (how about the second class?) and 60 employers wanting to hire from the first class.

If you look at the SoCal market though, would you say that with UCI's stats, employers would be willing to take UCI students over USD, Loyola, etc. ("lower" ranked based on # and estimates), or is the alumni factor a huge deal? How do you think USC fares in the OC, with so many legal employers donating to UCi?

Also, how important IS the fact that a school's product is known? For instance how would an employer stack up a top notch UCi student vs. a middle-of-the-pack USC student? I think what UCI has in its favor (at least in the short term) is that its faculty's own success depends on the students getting good employment stats. I read that Chemerinsky made a personal call to get one of his students a clerkship interview. I doubt Rasmussen make that call for one of his students.

I don't doubt the dean's reputation and enthusiam. Our Dean at Rady (UCSD MBA) has done the same. The point is when Charles Brandeis, ( Brandeis Investments) makes a donation and promises usa look in the hire process, but his HR department refuses to return phone calls, because they have filled out their internship requirements with students from USC and UCLA, there is a problem. The people that the Dean at UCI knows aren't the people involved in the hiring process. Its junior associates and junior partners from other schools not UCI. Clerkships are a different. The other thing is understanding the legal market in SoCal. USD owns the SD market. 1 in 5 lawyers in San Diego is and alum from USD. UCLA and USC own the LA market. Southwestern has the keys to the LA county DA's office. La Verne owns the Inland Empire. The rest of the schools scrounge for the other jobs not to mention the out of state T14s. UCI will be a viable alternative in 10 years, maybe. But not now.

[irishman86]

USC, because employers don't have an impression of UCI. From what I've heard, many employers do not check rankings and don't know what the current rankings are. Even if UCI turns out to be a top 25 school, which is far from guaranteed, it doesn't mean that employers will know nor care. At least employers know USC is a good school.

[1800calturk]

I know UCI is tempting but there are so many things that have to right for them - in order for you to be in as good of position there as you would automatically be at USC.

It seems like you'll ultimately be swayed based on your experiences at the Admitted Students day.

On the bright-side this is a good dilemma to have, OP

Thanks, it IS a good dilemma to have. I'm really happy about the intense discussuion going on in this thread, it's giving me a lot to think about. I'm cautious about basing my decision on ASD alone, just because one event probably isn't enough to base assumptions about the law school experience on.

From what everyone has been saying, especially comments about precarious employment, it seems like USC is the way to go. The soft factor of "law school experience" is really abstract since I have no frame of reference. Do you USC proponents think UCI asd would be a waste of time then? In other words, assuming USC's superiority in rankings/employment are there no soft factors that weigh heavily enough to tip the scale towards UCI?

[lt0826]

This is why it actually is an easy decision. Pick USC and don't ever look back. Irvine's whole mission at the point is public service. U$C.

While Irvine may be very supportive of public service, with all the Orange County law firms donating money for those 50% scholarships, I would think they are expecting a return on their investment in the form of future employees. The business community has been very supportive of UC Irvine and I think at least in Orange County the school will be very viable.

But I do know USC has a very strong alumni network so that is something to consider.

[1800calturk]

This is why it actually is an easy decision. Pick USC and don't ever look back. Irvine's whole mission at the point is public service. U$C.

While Irvine may be very supportive of public service, with all the Orange County law firms donating money for those 50% scholarships, I would think they are expecting a return on their investment in the form of future employees. The business community has been very supportive of UC Irvine and I think at least in Orange County the school will be very viable.

But I do know USC has a very strong alumni network so that is something to consider.

What does it mean for the Orange County law firms and businesses to donate so much? The faculty at UCI would have us believe that this means firms and businesses want a return in the form of employees like you said, but are there other reasons? Would an OC firm hire from UCI over USC, because they donated to UCI?

[dontstopbelivin]

Thanks, OP, for starting this thread. I'm in a similar bind, except swap an east coast low t14 school in for USC. The reasons I want to go to UCI: great scholarship, great location, great community environment, great professors, PI focus, closer to my family. My problem? I live on the east coast now, and I'm not sure where I want to practice in the long term. Do you think I'll be completely out of luck if I decide to come back to the east coast after graduation?

The idea of taking out $100K less in loans (even more after interest!) and this crappy east coast weather keep boosting UCI up in my mind...

[1800calturk]

Thanks, OP, for starting this thread. I'm in a similar bind, except swap an east coast low t14 school in for USC. The reasons I want to go to UCI: great scholarship, great location, great community environment, great professors, PI focus, closer to my family. My problem? I live on the east coast now, and I'm not sure where I want to practice in the long term. Do you think I'll be completely out of luck if I decide to come back to the east coast after graduation?

The idea of taking out $100K less in loans (even more after interest!) and this crappy east coast weather keep boosting UCI up in my mind...

Based on my researching of the school, I'd have to say go for the t14 if you would like the option of working outside California (or even SoCal) after graduation. My personal opinion is that anything outside of Harvard and Yale are subject to SOME degree of "regionality", but the t14 is as national as schools get. Plus I'm skeptical about UCI's shot at east coast employment, if that's important to you.

The employment advantage of UCI as someone said, is that you'll graduate with a lot less debt, which = freedom. You won't be forced to take the highest paying job just to have a shot at paying back loans.

All that said, I'd say if there's even a chance you want to practice on the east coast, you'd be crazy not to pick the T14.

[dontstopbelivin]

Thanks, OP, for starting this thread. I'm in a similar bind, except swap an east coast low t14 school in for USC. The reasons I want to go to UCI: great scholarship, great location, great community environment, great professors, PI focus, closer to my family. My problem? I live on the east coast now, and I'm not sure where I want to practice in the long term. Do you think I'll be completely out of luck if I decide to come back to the east coast after graduation?

The idea of taking out $100K less in loans (even more after interest!) and this crappy east coast weather keep boosting UCI up in my mind...

Based on my researching of the school, I'd have to say go for the t14 if you would like the option of working outside California (or even SoCal) after graduation. My personal opinion is that anything outside of Harvard and Yale are subject to SOME degree of "regionality", but the t14 is as national as schools get. Plus I'm skeptical about UCI's shot at east coast employment, if that's important to you.

The employment advantage of UCI as someone said, is that you'll graduate with a lot less debt, which = freedom. You won't be forced to take the highest paying job just to have a shot at paying back loans.

All that said, I'd say if there's even a chance you want to practice on the east coast, you'd be crazy not to pick the T14.

Hmm, thanks - I appreciate the insight, and agree with your points. It's just hard to write off what seems like a promising option on the chance I'll want to work elsewhere. It's definitely something I'll bring up at UCI's ASD, just to get their take on the issue (i.e., COULD they use their connections/network to place beyond SoCal, and has that panned out in 1L summer positions...)

[1800calturk]

Hmm, thanks - I appreciate the insight, and agree with your points. It's just hard to write off what seems like a promising option on the chance I'll want to work elsewhere. It's definitely something I'll bring up at UCI's ASD, just to get their take on the issue (i.e., COULD they use their connections/network to place beyond SoCal, and has that panned out in 1L summer positions...)

I can already tell you what they'll say: http://www.top-law-schools.com/uci-law. ... _Placement

[dontstopbelivin]

Hmm, thanks - I appreciate the insight, and agree with your points. It's just hard to write off what seems like a promising option on the chance I'll want to work elsewhere. It's definitely something I'll bring up at UCI's ASD, just to get their take on the issue (i.e., COULD they use their connections/network to place beyond SoCal, and has that panned out in 1L summer positions...)

I can already tell you what they'll say: http://www.top-law-schools.com/uci-law. ... _Placement

Thanks for the link. Yeah, I figured as much - but as better stated above by many others, the real question is not whether firms or judges will interview you for jobs, it's whether they'll hire you over alums from their own law schools.

[im_blue]

Hmm, thanks - I appreciate the insight, and agree with your points. It's just hard to write off what seems like a promising option on the chance I'll want to work elsewhere. It's definitely something I'll bring up at UCI's ASD, just to get their take on the issue (i.e., COULD they use their connections/network to place beyond SoCal, and has that panned out in 1L summer positions...)

I can already tell you what they'll say: http://www.top-law-schools.com/uci-law. ... _Placement

Thanks for the link. Yeah, I figured as much - but as better stated above by many others, the real question is not whether firms or judges will interview you for jobs, it's whether they'll hire you over alums from their own law schools.

Yeah, I mean they might give you an interview because Chemerinsky asked them, but when push comes to shove, who gets the job?

[Fark-o-vision]

I would also like to suggest that, depending on the undergrad program that you're talking about, UC Irvine might have better SoCal lay prestige than USC. Nationally, it's USC all the way. However, in SoCal, the respect level for Irvine is tremendous. I think a lot of people are really underestimating that. This isn't a school that "appeared", this is a school that, holistically, is compared on par with UC Berkeley. There are those in the SoCal market who would argue that Irvine is a step over UCSD or UCLA. It really does get a lot of love, especially in Orange County.

[Tofu]

I would also like to suggest that, depending on the undergrad program that you're talking about, UC Irvine might have better SoCal lay prestige than USC. Nationally, it's USC all the way. However, in SoCal, the respect level for Irvine is tremendous. I think a lot of people are really underestimating that. This isn't a school that "appeared", this is a school that, holistically, is compared on par with UC Berkeley. There are those in the SoCal market who would argue that Irvine is a step over UCSD or UCLA. It really does get a lot of love, especially in Orange County.

regarding prestige, it's...

berkeley > ucla > usc/ucsd > uci
or
berkeley > ucla > usc > ucsd > uci

[1800calturk]

I would also like to suggest that, depending on the undergrad program that you're talking about, UC Irvine might have better SoCal lay prestige than USC. Nationally, it's USC all the way. However, in SoCal, the respect level for Irvine is tremendous. I think a lot of people are really underestimating that. This isn't a school that "appeared", this is a school that, holistically, is compared on par with UC Berkeley. There are those in the SoCal market who would argue that Irvine is a step over UCSD or UCLA. It really does get a lot of love, especially in Orange County.

I call shenanigans. Sorry, but I really don't see by what criteria UCI is "on par" with UCLA, much less Berkeley. I believe after UCLA, it's UCSD, then Santa Barbara, Irvine, and Davis duke it out for 4th UC.

But this is all irrelevant since it's undergrad, I meant does undergrad reputation affect Law School perception/rankings? Do you think SoCal firms will prefer UCI over USD, Loyola, Pepperdine, etc.?

edit: Right now UCI undergrad is ranked lower than UCSB and UCD

[im_blue]

I would also like to suggest that, depending on the undergrad program that you're talking about, UC Irvine might have better SoCal lay prestige than USC. Nationally, it's USC all the way. However, in SoCal, the respect level for Irvine is tremendous. I think a lot of people are really underestimating that. This isn't a school that "appeared", this is a school that, holistically, is compared on par with UC Berkeley. There are those in the SoCal market who would argue that Irvine is a step over UCSD or UCLA. It really does get a lot of love, especially in Orange County.

Rancid UCI trolling. Berkeley > UCLA > USC > UCSD > UCI ~= UCD ~= UCSB. At best, UCI is the fourth best university in SoCal, not counting Caltech and the Claremont LACs. USC and UCSD are not even compared to Berkeley, let alone UCI.

[ucilawzot!]

This is why it actually is an easy decision. Pick USC and don't ever look back. Irvine's whole mission at the point is public service. U$C.

While Irvine may be very supportive of public service, with all the Orange County law firms donating money for those 50% scholarships, I would think they are expecting a return on their investment in the form of future employees. The business community has been very supportive of UC Irvine and I think at least in Orange County the school will be very viable.

But I do know USC has a very strong alumni network so that is something to consider.

What does it mean for the Orange County law firms and businesses to donate so much? The faculty at UCI would have us believe that this means firms and businesses want a return in the form of employees like you said, but are there other reasons? Would an OC firm hire from UCI over USC, because they donated to UCI?

I think one reason that OC firms are donating to UCI and coming for OCI next fall that hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that they want a stream of attorneys that won't ask to transfer to the LA office after they've put in one year in the OC office. I understand this is a concern they have about recruiting from LA schools like USC/UCLA. OC firms want talent that is interested in working locally.

[1800calturk]

This is why it actually is an easy decision. Pick USC and don't ever look back. Irvine's whole mission at the point is public service. U$C.

While Irvine may be very supportive of public service, with all the Orange County law firms donating money for those 50% scholarships, I would think they are expecting a return on their investment in the form of future employees. The business community has been very supportive of UC Irvine and I think at least in Orange County the school will be very viable.

But I do know USC has a very strong alumni network so that is something to consider.

What does it mean for the Orange County law firms and businesses to donate so much? The faculty at UCI would have us believe that this means firms and businesses want a return in the form of employees like you said, but are there other reasons? Would an OC firm hire from UCI over USC, because they donated to UCI?

I think one reason that OC firms are donating to UCI and coming for OCI next fall that hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that they want a stream of attorneys that won't ask to transfer to the LA office after they've put in one year in the OC office. I understand this is a concern they have about recruiting from LA schools like USC/UCLA. OC firms want talent that is interested in working locally.

Would you say that that will translate into OC firms hiring UCI over USC? Because if I were working at an OC firm I'd want to stay there. What everyone complains about in OC (sterile community, nothing to do, etc.) are actually very attractive to me.

[ucilawzot!]

While Irvine may be very supportive of public service, with all the Orange County law firms donating money for those 50% scholarships, I would think they are expecting a return on their investment in the form of future employees. The business community has been very supportive of UC Irvine and I think at least in Orange County the school will be very viable.

But I do know USC has a very strong alumni network so that is something to consider.

What does it mean for the Orange County law firms and businesses to donate so much? The faculty at UCI would have us believe that this means firms and businesses want a return in the form of employees like you said, but are there other reasons? Would an OC firm hire from UCI over USC, because they donated to UCI?

I think one reason that OC firms are donating to UCI and coming for OCI next fall that hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that they want a stream of attorneys that won't ask to transfer to the LA office after they've put in one year in the OC office. I understand this is a concern they have about recruiting from LA schools like USC/UCLA. OC firms want talent that is interested in working locally.

Would you say that that will translate into OC firms hiring UCI over USC? Because if I were working at an OC firm I'd want to stay there. What everyone complains about in OC (sterile community, nothing to do, etc.) are actually very attractive to me.

Only time will tell whether the big firms will hire from UCI when the rubber hits the road. With that said, we've had nothing but support from them since school started. They're even hiring our 1Ls for summer positions. Personally, I'm confident that the options will be there -- at least for the students with the top grades in the class. But if you're looking for certainty, I can't give it to you, and I don't think anyone else on this board or at UCI could no matter how much we'd like to.

I do have one other thought that you may want to consider: you won't necessarily land a big firm job just by going to USC, and I truly don't mean that as an affront, what I mean is that you are more likely to get a big firm job if you do well in the program that you're in (within reason of course). Quality of life should not be a throw-away consideration. When weighing your options, consider the environment where you think you're likely to succeed academically. This might impact your decision. You might not be as likely to get the As at USC if the environment doesn't suit you, whereas you might be able to get them at UCI. I think if you get As at either USC or UCI you are in a solid position to land a big firm job, particularly in the OC (from UCI).

Sorry this is so convoluted. I hope it helps.

[1800calturk]

It's not convoluted, it's exactly what I've been arguing in favor of UCI, and what makes this such a hard decision for me. I'm sure I would love the QoL at UCI. I don't know anything about living in LA, but I am in a dangerous urban setting right now, and I have to say, I'm really sick of it. People say USC "isn't that bad, you just have to be smart." Why do I have to be smart? If I have to be smart to avoid being robbed, stabbed, or raped, then it is bad. Raise your standards people.

On the other hand, I'm sure there's a lot I would love about LA (it's LA!). Plus I think the QoL difference has to be pretty immense for me to believe that I will be unsuccessful at USC, where I'd have been successful at UCI. It seems like it's safe to say someone who does well at USC is better off than someone who does equally well at UCI.

[ucilawzot!]

That's probably true. There are other considerations of course, but I think that a person with top grades at USC would do as well or better in the big firm market than someone from UCI. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that UCI won't place you where you want to be

[ucilawzot!]

It's not convoluted, it's exactly what I've been arguing in favor of UCI, and what makes this such a hard decision for me. I'm sure I would love the QoL at UCI. I don't know anything about living in LA, but I am in a dangerous urban setting right now, and I have to say, I'm really sick of it. People say USC "isn't that bad, you just have to be smart." Why do I have to be smart? If I have to be smart to avoid being robbed, stabbed, or raped, then it is bad. Raise your standards people.

On the other hand, I'm sure there's a lot I would love about LA (it's LA!). Plus I think the QoL difference has to be pretty immense for me to believe that I will be unsuccessful at USC, where I'd have been successful at UCI. It seems like it's safe to say someone who does well at USC is better off than someone who does equally well at UCI.

Also, as someone who attended USC, I can say that I never once felt unsafe on campus, and I took a lot of evening courses. You get a lot of scary Campus Safety emails when you're a student, but most of the crime happens off campus and in the middle of the night. If I were you I wouldn't live near USC, mostly because there are more fun, vibrant areas to live in LA, but I also wouldn't make safety on campus a major barrier to your decision. Granted, LA proper is less safe than the area around Irvine and Newport, but that's just part of living in a big urban center.

[Fark-o-vision]

Not in any way connected to UCI. I also readily admit that nationally, UCI suffers. However, in SoCal, UCI has a tremendous reputation. Depending on the program you're looking into, UCI is a better value/better option than higher ranked UC's, as long as you care to remain in SoCal. I think we've all pretty much admitted that national ranking systems are flawed, seriously. If you're looking for a big name in Connecticut, then UCI is low on your list. Regional prestige, especially in Orange County, is off the charts though.

I also would like to point out that SoCal tends to be regional in how it views life. I would say that, for a lot of people, region beats alumni. If you're from the 909, nobody in LA, San Diego, or Orange wants anything to do with you. In the 909, though, there is a strong sense of comradery. I got my first job because I went to a local school, despite the fact that better qualified, and better educated, individuals also applied. .

[FuzzyKiwi]

Only time will tell whether the big firms will hire from UCI when the rubber hits the road. With that said, we've had nothing but support from them since school started. They're even hiring our 1Ls for summer positions. Personally, I'm confident that the options will be there -- at least for the students with the top grades in the class. But if you're looking for certainty, I can't give it to you, and I don't think anyone else on this board or at UCI could no matter how much we'd like to.

I do have one other thought that you may want to consider: you won't necessarily land a big firm job just by going to USC, and I truly don't mean that as an affront, what I mean is that you are more likely to get a big firm job if you do well in the program that you're in (within reason of course). Quality of life should not be a throw-away consideration. When weighing your options, consider the environment where you think you're likely to succeed academically. This might impact your decision. You might not be as likely to get the As at USC if the environment doesn't suit you, whereas you might be able to get them at UCI. I think if you get As at either USC or UCI you are in a solid position to land a big firm job, particularly in the OC (from UCI).

Sorry this is so convoluted. I hope it helps.

This is what I've been wondering about. Why are people saying "if you want secure job prospects, go to USC?" (or other statements along those lines). My (perhaps uninformed) 0L impression has been that the economy has been particulary unpredictable, and that job prospects from any school are not secure. To me, that makes UCI (with significantly lower debt and staff/faculty/peers/mentors pulling for you) even more attractive than it may have been during boom years. I know this example is not really applicable to your situation, but I work for a nonprofit, and though we are hiring in our legal clinic (and pay very little), it's hard for managment to give serious consideration to any of the '09 graduate resumes we received in the flood of resumes with (at least) 1-2 years of litigation experience. I can only imagine that it's worse in the for-profit sector.