Seton Hall vs. NYLS Forum

[reasonable_man]

Both schools are festering TTTs. Attending either at full price, unless you are wealthy going in, is absolutely retarded. However, neither is any better than the other. In sum, your question cannot be answered as they are the same.

If you have a boat load of money saved, have fun for 3 years and get ready to work in one of the lower ends of the profession upon graduation.

If you don't have a boat load of money saved, enjoy trying to pay back the 200k each will cost you, while earning 38k + free pizza fridays at a no-fault ID hell hole.

[amclane]

free pizza fridays

Nothing in the world is better than free pizza friday.

[chooch]

Both schools are festering TTTs. Attending either at full price, unless you are wealthy going in, is absolutely retarded. However, neither is any better than the other. In sum, your question cannot be answered as they are the same.

If you have a boat load of money saved, have fun for 3 years and get ready to work in one of the lower ends of the profession upon graduation.

If you don't have a boat load of money saved, enjoy trying to pay back the 200k each will cost you, while earning 38k + free pizza fridays at a no-fault ID hell hole.

i thought seton hall was T2...

[td6624]

I would not attend either of these without tuition being paid for in some way that didn't involve loans.

I know you don't want to hear that, but until you elaborate on why you're dead set on attending one of these schools or elaborate on your current financial standing, there really isn't any other answer.

[reasonable_man]

Both schools are festering TTTs. Attending either at full price, unless you are wealthy going in, is absolutely retarded. However, neither is any better than the other. In sum, your question cannot be answered as they are the same.

If you have a boat load of money saved, have fun for 3 years and get ready to work in one of the lower ends of the profession upon graduation.

If you don't have a boat load of money saved, enjoy trying to pay back the 200k each will cost you, while earning 38k + free pizza fridays at a no-fault ID hell hole.

i thought seton hall was T2...

The rankings put out by the USNWR mean nothing compared to the Reasonable_Man rankings, which are in line with what practicing lawyers actually think:

T3>T6>T14>T30>Hamburger College at McDonald's>All other ABA approved LSs>Katherine Gibbs typing classes>BLS, Seton Hall, NYLS, Hofstra, etc>cashier at McDonald's with no hope of attending hamburger college>Cooley.

[erniesto]

Go to CUNY 19,000 a year vs 45,000 a year. Your job prospects are probably just as good at median.

Or if you have to flush away $160,000 imaginary stafford/plus dollars go to NYLS for 3 years, there won't be as much interest accrued when you turn 60. Maybe

[dakatz]

OP, seems like quite a few people agree that maybe you should look into some lower-cost alternatives that will provide similar employment prospects. If you can get into Seton Hall's PT program, you can probably get into Rutgers-Newark's PT program as well. UConn or CUNY are also better options with reasonable tuition. You are very right, we do not know your financial situation. If you are very wealthy and are willing to take the gamble, just go wherever you feel most comfortable, and enjoy the experience. But if money is any sort of concern to you, as it is to most people, think of it as a cost-benefit comparison. Many of the schools in this range offer very similar job prospects so you might as well pick the most reasonably priced option.

[Lawschoolman]

You guys really need to come down from your ivory towers. Contrary to popular belief you need not go to a T-14 to have a fulfilling legal career. I am lucky enough to have gotten into a T-14, but if I hadn't, I would've still gone to law school - even at a so-called TTT.

OP: to answer your question, if you want to practice in NJ go to Seton Hall - from where many people have graduated and gone on to have wonderful legal careers, including the current Gov. of NJ and a number of AUSAs at the USAO. If you want to practice in NY, go to NYLS. Biglaw will probably not be an option coming out of either of these schools. As this is not your goal, though, it shouldn't matter.

[Grizz]

Read this blog --LinkRemoved-- before you make what is likely a horrible financial decision. Good luck.

edit: screwed up my tags

[td6624]

You guys really need to come down from your ivory towers. Contrary to popular belief you need not go to a T-14 to have a fulfilling legal career. I am lucky enough to have gotten into a T-14, but if I hadn't, I would've still gone to law school - even at a so-called TTT.

OP: to answer your question, if you want to practice in NJ go to Seton Hall - from where many people have graduated and gone on to have wonderful legal careers, including the current Gov. of NJ and a number of AUSAs at the USAO. If you want to practice in NY, go to NYLS. Biglaw will probably not be an option coming out of either of these schools. As this is not your goal, though, it shouldn't matter.

You really don't think he should try to find a cheaper price tag somewhere? No one is saying he needs to go to a T14. I'm not going to a T14. I'm likely going somewhere that gave me money. Seems like a smart financial decision.

[reasonable_man]

You guys really need to come down from your ivory towers. Contrary to popular belief you need not go to a T-14 to have a fulfilling legal career. I am lucky enough to have gotten into a T-14, but if I hadn't, I would've still gone to law school - even at a so-called TTT.

OP: to answer your question, if you want to practice in NJ go to Seton Hall - from where many people have graduated and gone on to have wonderful legal careers, including the current Gov. of NJ and a number of AUSAs at the USAO. If you want to practice in NY, go to NYLS. Biglaw will probably not be an option coming out of either of these schools. As this is not your goal, though, it shouldn't matter.

You really need to come down out of your ivory tower and get a fucking clue before posting.


reasonable_man walks back to ivory tower...

[amclane]

This was my motivation behind making this thread/poll: I'm currently on the waitlist for University of Maryland. This is my top choice, and I really do want to go there. In the mean time, I have to withdraw from all my schools except one where I will put a seat deposit, and hopefully forfeit it.

I am thinking that one school will be Seton Hall, but I'm having cold feet about withdrawing from NYLS and I wanted to be convinced.

I would be happy to go to Seton Hall, despite some harsh criticisms. It's a top 100 school which decent job opportunities in NJ, where I would be happy to live. (Note I said decent. Which to me does not mean $100k salaries. It means maybe $40k salaries with opportunities to move up over a long career).

Maryland is my top choice, and about half the price of Seton Hall (in state tuition), so let's all just hope that I get off the waitlist.

[hank44]

I won't argue with everyone thats telling you these schools are overpriced, considering their relatively low rankings. They're probably spot on with that. Just looking through the first page of posts though, I laughed at seeing people (and im assuming mostly very bright college students, but still college students who have yet to land their first salaried job anywhere) throwing out this number about "30k public interest jobs".

I don't know much about government jobs outside of New York, but that number is just nonsense if thats where you plan on working. You can get a freaking clerical job in a courthouse - civil service exam - that pays in the 30s. You can certainly get a job (with a state/city agency, court, etc) as an attorney that will pay you 60k as a law school graduate with no experience. The Bronx DAs office is about 53k. The NYS UCS website has jobs from 60-80 k for relatively inexperienced attys. Sure, again, nothing amazing and you should DEFINITELY consider debts exceeding 100k before planning for one of these jobs, but its certainly not a foolish choice. Loan forgiveness, benefits, stability. If these things matter (which, if youre for public interest and not the firm world, I think they would) then just go for it. Its great to get everyones advice on here, but do your own research, find out what salaries REALLY are out there for jobs you want.

[Grizz]

I don't know much about government jobs outside of New York, but that number is just nonsense if thats where you plan on working. You can get a freaking clerical job in a courthouse - civil service exam - that pays in the 30s. You can certainly get a job (with a state/city agency, court, etc) as an attorney that will pay you 60k as a law school graduate with no experience. ADAs in Manhattan start at 70k. Check the website. Sure thats as competitive as biglaw, but the DAs offices in the city and even surrounding suburban counties dont drop below 50. The Bronx is about 53k. Sure, again, nothing amazing and you should DEFINITELY consider debts exceeding 100k before planning for one of these jobs, but its certainly not a foolish choice. Loan forgiveness, benefits, stability. If these things matter (which, if youre for public interest and not the firm world, I think they would) then just go for it. Its great to get everyones advice on here, but do your own research, find out what salaries REALLY are out there for jobs you want.

These jobs are not out of reach reach; anything is possible, especially if OP were to make law review. The main concern is that subpar or even above-median grades from these schools ITE might land OP in document review hell for 30k a year or "earning 38k + free pizza fridays at a no-fault ID hell hole" as reasonable_man so colorfully described. Because it is nearly impossible to discharge most student loans, this would, in effect, be a form of soft indentured servitude.

[hank44]

I don't know much about government jobs outside of New York, but that number is just nonsense if thats where you plan on working. You can get a freaking clerical job in a courthouse - civil service exam - that pays in the 30s. You can certainly get a job (with a state/city agency, court, etc) as an attorney that will pay you 60k as a law school graduate with no experience. ADAs in Manhattan start at 70k. Check the website. Sure thats as competitive as biglaw, but the DAs offices in the city and even surrounding suburban counties dont drop below 50. The Bronx is about 53k. Sure, again, nothing amazing and you should DEFINITELY consider debts exceeding 100k before planning for one of these jobs, but its certainly not a foolish choice. Loan forgiveness, benefits, stability. If these things matter (which, if youre for public interest and not the firm world, I think they would) then just go for it. Its great to get everyones advice on here, but do your own research, find out what salaries REALLY are out there for jobs you want.

These jobs are not out of reach reach; anything is possible, especially if OP were to make law review. The main concern is that subpar or even above-median grades from these schools ITE might land OP in document review hell for 30k a year or "earning 38k + free pizza fridays at a no-fault ID hell hole" as reasonable_man so colorfully described. Because it is nearly impossible to discharge most student loans, this would, in effect, be a form of soft indentured servitude.

I'd agree with the substance of that. And I don't totally disagree with reasonableman. Also, one thing people pursuing public interest jobs tend to forget: its still a "who you know" world for you too. Actually, perhaps just as much as the private sector. Anyone who works for the govt knows that you only get so far without being a bit of a people person. Office politics, promotions, even -most importantly - hearing about positions in the first place, all require some amount of networking/getting people to realize you want the job/should have the job. Dont think that just because you want to save the world, youll get job offers...

[erniesto]

This was my motivation behind making this thread/poll: I'm currently on the waitlist for University of Maryland. This is my top choice, and I really do want to go there. In the mean time, I have to withdraw from all my schools except one where I will put a seat deposit, and hopefully forfeit it.

I am thinking that one school will be Seton Hall, but I'm having cold feet about withdrawing from NYLS and I wanted to be convinced.

I would be happy to go to Seton Hall, despite some harsh criticisms. It's a top 100 school which decent job opportunities in NJ, where I would be happy to live. (Note I said decent. Which to me does not mean $100k salaries. It means maybe $40k salaries with opportunities to move up over a long career).

Maryland is my top choice, and about half the price of Seton Hall (in state tuition), so let's all just hope that I get off the waitlist.

I'm not familiar with UofMY admissions, but that's crazy. I'd think both Seton Hall and NYLS would throw some money at you if you're able to to get on a T1 public's waitlist. NYLS offered me 30k (but with some ridiculous strings attached) and I'm coming in at 27 percentile index on LSP for Univ. of Maryland.

I still think you're making a not so wise move going at sticker, but Seton Hall will be cheaper. You definitely want to make sure that you can get on law review coming from part-time. A quick browse through the NALP database will show that resume line almost essential to a good job.

[Grizz]

[quote="hank44"And I don't totally disagree with reasonableman. Also, one thing people pursuing public interest jobs tend to forget: its still a "who you know" world for you too. Actually, perhaps just as much as the private sector. Anyone who works for the govt knows that you only get so far without being a bit of a people person. Office politics, promotions, even -most importantly - hearing about positions in the first place, all require some amount of networking/getting people to realize you want the job/should have the job. Dont think that just because you want to save the world, youll get job offers...[/quote]

So true, definitely something to be aware of. If OP were to go to either of these schools, he or she needs to go into it with eyes wide open with as much info as possible.

[nycparalegal]

I won't argue with everyone thats telling you these schools are overpriced, considering their relatively low rankings. They're probably spot on with that. Just looking through the first page of posts though, I laughed at seeing people (and im assuming mostly very bright college students, but still college students who have yet to land their first salaried job anywhere) throwing out this number about "30k public interest jobs".

I don't know much about government jobs outside of New York, but that number is just nonsense if thats where you plan on working. You can get a freaking clerical job in a courthouse - civil service exam - that pays in the 30s. You can certainly get a job (with a state/city agency, court, etc) as an attorney that will pay you 60k as a law school graduate with no experience. The Bronx DAs office is about 53k. The NYS UCS website has jobs from 60-80 k for relatively inexperienced attys. Sure, again, nothing amazing and you should DEFINITELY consider debts exceeding 100k before planning for one of these jobs, but its certainly not a foolish choice. Loan forgiveness, benefits, stability. If these things matter (which, if youre for public interest and not the firm world, I think they would) then just go for it. Its great to get everyones advice on here, but do your own research, find out what salaries REALLY are out there for jobs you want.

Haha, Actually I've been out of school for 5 years now. And, I work in the legal field in NYC. But, don't listen to me. Please go ahead take out the 150K + loans for NYLS/SH.

Just don't say you were not warned.

[hank44]

I won't argue with everyone thats telling you these schools are overpriced, considering their relatively low rankings. They're probably spot on with that. Just looking through the first page of posts though, I laughed at seeing people (and im assuming mostly very bright college students, but still college students who have yet to land their first salaried job anywhere) throwing out this number about "30k public interest jobs".

I don't know much about government jobs outside of New York, but that number is just nonsense if thats where you plan on working. You can get a freaking clerical job in a courthouse - civil service exam - that pays in the 30s. You can certainly get a job (with a state/city agency, court, etc) as an attorney that will pay you 60k as a law school graduate with no experience. The Bronx DAs office is about 53k. The NYS UCS website has jobs from 60-80 k for relatively inexperienced attys. Sure, again, nothing amazing and you should DEFINITELY consider debts exceeding 100k before planning for one of these jobs, but its certainly not a foolish choice. Loan forgiveness, benefits, stability. If these things matter (which, if youre for public interest and not the firm world, I think they would) then just go for it. Its great to get everyones advice on here, but do your own research, find out what salaries REALLY are out there for jobs you want.

Haha, Actually I've been out of school for 5 years now. And, I work in the legal field in NYC. But, don't listen to me. Please go ahead take out the 150K + loans for NYLS/SH.

Just don't say you were not warned.

I'd be inclined to value your opinion based on experience...if you told us about your, um experience.

EDIT: I am also working, in NYC, and got a govt job out of college paying 45k.

[baboon309]

What do you guys think? Is it ridiculous to consider NYLS over Seton Hall? I would prefer attending full time, but I was admitted to SHU part-time. NYLS would be full time.

Why didn't you apply for CUNY Law or Rutgers Newark? lol Don't go to Seton hall because USNEWS tells you its a T2!!!!

[Cara]

If you don't get into Maryland this time why not simply retake the LSAT and try again next cycle? If it's half the cost of a dump like SHU then that's probably the single most cost-effective expenditure of your time in your life. Not only will you end up saving at least $100,000 in debt and interest payments but you'll also have better employment prospects.

Going to SHU paying full price is a really bad choice.

[nycparalegal]

If you don't get into Maryland this time why not simply retake the LSAT and try again next cycle? If it's half the cost of a dump like SHU then that's probably the single most cost-effective expenditure of your time in your life. Not only will you end up saving at least $100,000 in debt and interest payments but you'll also have better employment prospects.

Going to SHU paying full price is a really bad choice.

I've already explained this, but the OP doesn't want to listen. He is a special snow flake unlike the rest of the masses at SH who is going to be in the top 1% through hard work.

[amclane]

If you don't get into Maryland this time why not simply retake the LSAT and try again next cycle? If it's half the cost of a dump like SHU then that's probably the single most cost-effective expenditure of your time in your life. Not only will you end up saving at least $100,000 in debt and interest payments but you'll also have better employment prospects.

Going to SHU paying full price is a really bad choice.

I've already explained this, but the OP doesn't want to listen. He is a special snow flake unlike the rest of the masses at SH who is going to be in the top 1% through hard work.

Lol I never said anything remotely close to this...

[dakatz]

If you don't get into Maryland this time why not simply retake the LSAT and try again next cycle? If it's half the cost of a dump like SHU then that's probably the single most cost-effective expenditure of your time in your life. Not only will you end up saving at least $100,000 in debt and interest payments but you'll also have better employment prospects.

Going to SHU paying full price is a really bad choice.

I absolutely agree that the OP should go for a retake. He is obviously just a few points away from having a score that would get him into cheaper options with better employment prospects. Why not just go for those extra 3 or 4 points? Any score in the 150 range indicates that there are numerous areas for improvement, so I don't see why this option should be out of the question. Just a few extra points could mean many thousands less in tuition, or perhaps thousands more in scholarship money from the schools he is currently considering.

[td6624]

If you don't get into Maryland this time why not simply retake the LSAT and try again next cycle? If it's half the cost of a dump like SHU then that's probably the single most cost-effective expenditure of your time in your life. Not only will you end up saving at least $100,000 in debt and interest payments but you'll also have better employment prospects.

Going to SHU paying full price is a really bad choice.

I've already explained this, but the OP doesn't want to listen. He is a special snow flake unlike the rest of the masses at SH who is going to be in the top 1% through hard work.

Lol I never said anything remotely close to this...

Is there a reason why you ask for advice and then proceed to be so frustratingly vague that no one can even begin to figure out how to assist you?