What is the max price you'd pay for a non t-14 school? Forum

[sfdreaming09]

I will agree. If you are seeking a supreme court clerkship or plan on teaching, the t14 has a monopoly. However, through working in law firms, I have noticed that the top producers excel, as a law firm is a business, regardless of law school heritage. Just make sure that the school you attend will provide enough oppertunity to pay back the loans.

I fully agree w this. While your law school will be essential to getting your foot in the door of a good firm, once you are in I do not feel that where you went will matter much. If you are a rainmaker, nobody is going to give a hoot where you went to school. They will just want you to make them more $$$.

Wrong.

It seems like it would make sense, but this is just not how the legal profession operates.

[vanwinkle]

Don't be confused by all the flag waiving on here for the t-14... Most of it is just 0Ls (like myself) who are just excited to start school!

This is the type of attitude TLS needs to embrace. Too much T-14 flag waiving indeed.

Flag waiving? Is that like declining the opportunity to wave the flag?

As a 1L at a T14, witnessing how hard it is for even T14 students to get a job these days, I can say that the attitude is more than just "flag waving". It's an honest concern about employment opportunities both while in school and after graduation. Even at T25 schools like ND there are folks in the top 10% of their class who have not yet found work.

I'm saddened how people are advocating taking on significant debt at lower-ranked schools and this is being called "sound advice". There's a lot of contrarianism on this board, mostly from people trying to self-reinforce their own decision to attend law school. It's dangerous, and a lot of people are going to end up being very disappointed and burned.

In Property class this week we debated student loan debt as being a rare modern exception to the banning of indentured servitude. You can't discharge those debts in bankruptcy except in very extreme circumstances, they will follow you everywhere, and they will just keep accruing interest and growing bigger if you can't come up with a large salary to pay them off. Our Property professor here at a T14 is concerned about the effect this is going to have on us because she believes that even among us there will be many who struggle for our full lifetimes to pay that back, and we're T14 students!

Even going to a T14 at sticker is a risk ITE. Going to a T2 or TTT school is like buying a $200K lottery ticket. Yes, there's a chance you'll get a huge payoff in the end, but right now the odds are stacked so high against you at those lower levels that it makes no sense to play for a lot of people.

[chadwick218]

With what I know know, outside of UCLA, Texas, and possibly Vandy, I would not settle for anything less than 1/2 tuition for a non-T14. After, the T25, it's my personal opinion that it is not worth attending ... I have other alternatives.

[JusticeHarlan]

I will agree. If you are seeking a supreme court clerkship or plan on teaching, the t14 has a monopoly. However, through working in law firms, I have noticed that the top producers excel, as a law firm is a business, regardless of law school heritage. Just make sure that the school you attend will provide enough oppertunity to pay back the loans.

SCOTUS clerkship by school, per Leiter:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

More clerks from Notre Dame than from Duke, as many from Texas as Georgetown, same number from Georgia as Penn.

That said, its such an insignificantly small chance for any school that you shouldn't base your decisions on it. Even HYS or Chicago won't guarantee you a reasonable shot at it. It's a gig where there aren't enough spots for every Yale grad who wants it.

I have nothing to say on the issue at hand (how much one should pay for a non-T14 school), but thought the SCOTUS clerkship numbers were interesting enough to warrant posting.

[r6_philly]

Clerkship: They should cross reference that ranking with the desire of incoming students to pursue a SCOTUS clerkship. I think students who desire such opportunities, who feelt that they are capable of doing it, and who would work hard toward it, self select into certain schools with reputations for placing clerkships. I know this has a lot of bearing on my decision for school.

School reputation after becoming a lawyer: I have seen a lot of bios of lawyers posted for the public/potential clients to see. People with highly prestigiuos degrees always flaunt it. They wouldn't be doing so if it is not an advantage. Having worked in corporate marketing, I know that the product almost isn't as important as the marketing/packaging it's in. This is especially true before people know what quality the product possess (how could they before buying it?) Having that degree from a T14 school is going to get you more/better paying clients who have no knowledge to judge how good a lawyer is. They choose to judge you by your school since they figure the school did the selection for them. This obviously have less impact once you establish a reputation but it will remain an advantage.

[Danneskjöld]

ITT: People help each other rationalize horrific financial decisions.

[thelawguy777]

Don't be confused by all the flag waiving on here for the t-14... Most of it is just 0Ls (like myself) who are just excited to start school!

This is the type of attitude TLS needs to embrace. Too much T-14 flag waiving indeed.

Flag waiving? Is that like declining the opportunity to wave the flag?


Even going to a T14 at sticker is a risk ITE. Going to a T2 or TTT school is like buying a $200K lottery ticket. Yes, there's a chance you'll get a huge payoff in the end, but right now the odds are stacked so high against you at those lower levels that it makes no sense to play for a lot of people.

Re-thinking this you are right. I am totally mistaken. Here, don't worry. I will handle it... Let's write a letter to this guy. Maybe he will pass it around to others considering going to school at a non-t14...

Dear Prospective Student (or current students at any of the other 186 law schools),

Please just don't do it. Only 14 out of the 200 law schools in this country are actually worth it (and according to this thread there are many at those schools who are going to be slaves to debt the rest of their natural lives).

Really, it's the biggest educational scam in the United States. You might as well buy $200,000 worth of lottery tickets.

Granted, I am a 1L and could be studying for my classes... But why try to be a better student/lawyer when I can post about how incredibly stupid all of you (at the 186 sub-par schools) are?

Please do us all a favor and only go to the t14.

Thanks
-Someone who will get a good job.

[Kohinoor]

T14 is a crutch. HYS or bust.

[thelawguy777]

T14 is a crutch. HYS or bust.

HYS? Come on. Stanford? Please.

Yale or bust (and I guess Harvard is acceptable if you don't get into Yale)...

[im_blue]

Don't be confused by all the flag waiving on here for the t-14... Most of it is just 0Ls (like myself) who are just excited to start school!

This is the type of attitude TLS needs to embrace. Too much T-14 flag waiving indeed.

Flag waiving? Is that like declining the opportunity to wave the flag?

As a 1L at a T14, witnessing how hard it is for even T14 students to get a job these days, I can say that the attitude is more than just "flag waving". It's an honest concern about employment opportunities both while in school and after graduation. Even at T25 schools like ND there are folks in the top 10% of their class who have not yet found work.

I'm saddened how people are advocating taking on significant debt at lower-ranked schools and this is being called "sound advice". There's a lot of contrarianism on this board, mostly from people trying to self-reinforce their own decision to attend law school. It's dangerous, and a lot of people are going to end up being very disappointed and burned.

In Property class this week we debated student loan debt as being a rare modern exception to the banning of indentured servitude. You can't discharge those debts in bankruptcy except in very extreme circumstances, they will follow you everywhere, and they will just keep accruing interest and growing bigger if you can't come up with a large salary to pay them off. Our Property professor here at a T14 is concerned about the effect this is going to have on us because she believes that even among us there will be many who struggle for our full lifetimes to pay that back, and we're T14 students!

Even going to a T14 at sticker is a risk ITE. Going to a T2 or TTT school is like buying a $200K lottery ticket. Yes, there's a chance you'll get a huge payoff in the end, but right now the odds are stacked so high against you at those lower levels that it makes no sense to play for a lot of people.

TITCR. We're elitist about T14 because law firms are elitist in hiring.

[fortissimo]

$0 dollarz

[BearDownChicago]

Don't be confused by all the flag waiving on here for the t-14... Most of it is just 0Ls (like myself) who are just excited to start school!

This is the type of attitude TLS needs to embrace. Too much T-14 flag waiving indeed.

Flag waiving? Is that like declining the opportunity to wave the flag?

As a 1L at a T14, witnessing how hard it is for even T14 students to get a job these days, I can say that the attitude is more than just "flag waving". It's an honest concern about employment opportunities both while in school and after graduation. Even at T25 schools like ND there are folks in the top 10% of their class who have not yet found work.

I'm saddened how people are advocating taking on significant debt at lower-ranked schools and this is being called "sound advice". There's a lot of contrarianism on this board, mostly from people trying to self-reinforce their own decision to attend law school. It's dangerous, and a lot of people are going to end up being very disappointed and burned.

In Property class this week we debated student loan debt as being a rare modern exception to the banning of indentured servitude. You can't discharge those debts in bankruptcy except in very extreme circumstances, they will follow you everywhere, and they will just keep accruing interest and growing bigger if you can't come up with a large salary to pay them off. Our Property professor here at a T14 is concerned about the effect this is going to have on us because she believes that even among us there will be many who struggle for our full lifetimes to pay that back, and we're T14 students!

Even going to a T14 at sticker is a risk ITE. Going to a T2 or TTT school is like buying a $200K lottery ticket. Yes, there's a chance you'll get a huge payoff in the end, but right now the odds are stacked so high against you at those lower levels that it makes no sense to play for a lot of people.

TITCR. We're elitist about T14 because law firms are elitist in hiring.

Don't come on here and correct grammar and spelling errors. We get it, you are at a t-14 and are very smart. But I would like to get a couple things straight.

1) are you REALLY saddened at how some people are deciding to take on debt? probably not, so cut that shit off.

2) no one cares what your t-14 professor thinks of the current situation. for all I know, this person may not even exist. citing your "t-14 property professor" is about as credible as me saying "this really smart guy I know"

3) "and we're t-14 students!" - insert t-14 flag WAVING here

4) thanks for the heads up on the current employment situation. i had no idea. neither did anyone else on this board.

5) people are risk averse, neutral, or lovers. what sounds crazy and stupid and irresponsible to you may be completely different to another student.

6) is everyone at LS like you? if so, it might not be too late for me to get out of this. forget the debt, I think I am more afraid to be around people like you and VanWinkle for the next 3 years.

7) thanks

[Ayeshabelle]

$5,000 a year. I am very very debt-adverse

[Doritos]

This is the type of attitude TLS needs to embrace. Too much T-14 flag waiving indeed.

Flag waiving? Is that like declining the opportunity to wave the flag?

As a 1L at a T14, witnessing how hard it is for even T14 students to get a job these days, I can say that the attitude is more than just "flag waving". It's an honest concern about employment opportunities both while in school and after graduation. Even at T25 schools like ND there are folks in the top 10% of their class who have not yet found work.

I'm saddened how people are advocating taking on significant debt at lower-ranked schools and this is being called "sound advice". There's a lot of contrarianism on this board, mostly from people trying to self-reinforce their own decision to attend law school. It's dangerous, and a lot of people are going to end up being very disappointed and burned.

In Property class this week we debated student loan debt as being a rare modern exception to the banning of indentured servitude. You can't discharge those debts in bankruptcy except in very extreme circumstances, they will follow you everywhere, and they will just keep accruing interest and growing bigger if you can't come up with a large salary to pay them off. Our Property professor here at a T14 is concerned about the effect this is going to have on us because she believes that even among us there will be many who struggle for our full lifetimes to pay that back, and we're T14 students!

Even going to a T14 at sticker is a risk ITE. Going to a T2 or TTT school is like buying a $200K lottery ticket. Yes, there's a chance you'll get a huge payoff in the end, but right now the odds are stacked so high against you at those lower levels that it makes no sense to play for a lot of people.

TITCR. We're elitist about T14 because law firms are elitist in hiring.

Don't come on here and correct grammar and spelling errors. We get it, you are at a t-14 and are very smart. But I would like to get a couple things straight.

1) are you REALLY saddened at how some people are deciding to take on debt? probably not, so cut that shit off.

2) no one cares what your t-14 professor thinks of the current situation. for all I know, this person may not even exist. citing your "t-14 property professor" is about as credible as me saying "this really smart guy I know"

3) "and we're t-14 students!" - insert t-14 flag WAVING here

4) thanks for the heads up on the current employment situation. i had no idea. neither did anyone else on this board.

5) people are risk averse, neutral, or lovers. what sounds crazy and stupid and irresponsible to you may be completely different to another student.

6) is everyone at LS like you? if so, it might not be too late for me to get out of this. forget the debt, I think I am more afraid to be around people like you and VanWinkle for the next 3 years.

7) thanks

Chicago you seriously need to chill. He was being sincere and offering his informed (are you even in law school chicago?) opinion on the situation. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its wrong and elitist. vanwinkle's the man by the way. Also, why not treat people with respect. You know you can post and disagree with someone without making ad hominem attacks and being a jerk. I think we can all just let bygones be bygones if you go ahead and apologize.

[jakeoooh]

I'm in-state, and would be willing to pay sticker for UNC if I end up getting in. I'll be 30 when I enter law school, and having lived on both coasts and from NYC to Florida between HS and the present, know I plan on living here long-term. Given the $16k-ish tuition, and the knowledge that UNC rarely gives out any money, I selected the $10-$20k option. I would POSSIBLY consider taking full loans if I get shut-out at UNC and am accepted off the waitlist at one of my several T-14 wls, but will otherwise be re-applying next year and hoping for better luck (not sure whether upping my LSAT will help any, but is probably the only thing I can do to improve my application). Knowing that UNC is so inexpensive for in-state, and places well here, it would take a substantial scholarship from anywhere outside the T-14 to pique my interest even if I don't get into UNC this cycle (I'm already old, have a good quality of life, and am married, so another year isn't going to kill me). Likewise, I would take sticker at UNC versus sticker at any of the T-14s I could get into, since this is where I plan on practicing and am (somewhat) debt-averse.

[StyrofoamWar]

.

[uwb09]

really good posts in this thread

I'll just add that if working as an attorney is what you want to do with your life, then it shouldn't matter how much it costs. Spending your life doing what you love is priceless.

Those people who really won't go to law school cuz they cant get full schollie somewhere, or can't get into T14, aren't going to law school because they want to be an attorney. They are going for other reasons.

If you want to be an attorney, you have to go to law school, it's as simple as that. If you have to go to a 50-100 school or less to get there then do it, do it well, and kick ass on the way out.

Millions of people make great lives for themselves with a whole lot less.

Stop worrying so much about the name of the school on your diploma, and focus on yourself. People pay for you, not for your school.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

I would pay sticker + my soul + my first born child + prima nocta for a Vandy acceptance right now.

[nycparalegal]

I think it all really depends on an individuals situation:

For example, if you have a great cheap state school (Wisconsin or UCONN) that dominates its local market, don't you think it might be worth it to attend if you can come out of law school with only 60-80k total debt.

[General Tso]

$0. I wouldn't go. Unless you went to a truly TTT undergrad, then you can almost certainly make more $ with just your bachelors degree. Debt is devastating.

I’d say either retake or forget law school.

This is so freaking asinine. 1st, learn to do some time value of money analysis and don't be a Dave Ramsey anti-debt drone. 2nd, show me a field where the lifetime earning potential of a BA can rival that of a JD. True, a middle of the pack JD grad might start off around 50k, but with several years' experience their salary will increase dramatically.

Degrees are definitely not worth what they used to be, and debt is devastating after a point (I generally say no more than 75-80k for nonT20), but to categorically rule out 180+ law schools for everybody is too broad a generalization.

[nycparalegal]

$0. I wouldn't go. Unless you went to a truly TTT undergrad, then you can almost certainly make more $ with just your bachelors degree. Debt is devastating.

I’d say either retake or forget law school.

This is so freaking asinine. 1st, learn to do some time value of money analysis and don't be a Dave Ramsey anti-debt drone. 2nd, show me a field where the lifetime earning potential of a BA can rival that of a JD. True, a middle of the pack JD grad might start off around 50k, but with several years' experience their salary will increase dramatically.

Degrees are definitely not worth what they used to be, and debt is devastating after a point (I generally say no more than 75-80k), but to categorically rule out 180+ law schools for everybody is too broad a generalization.

Well, it's easy to do if you can get into a top school. You kind of look down at the rest of the schools and their employment opportunities.

I mean what really is the point of a thread like this? It deals in broad generalizations that isnt as cut and dry as people think.

e: debt is bad, and it cuts into the QOL but for some people, depending on their situation it makes sense to go to a law school not in the t-14, and pay sticker or close to it.

[thelawguy777]

4) thanks for the heads up on the current employment situation. i had no idea. neither did anyone else on this board.

1st Hilarious comment.

[thelawguy777]

I would pay sticker + my soul + my first born child + prima nocta for a Vandy acceptance right now.

2nd Hilarious Comment!

+1 for successfully using the phrase "prima nocta"

This is pure comedy. I love it.

[Lieut Kaffee]

For the two days that USC was my best acceptance, I would have paid sticker there. I mean, doing well at USC or UCLA and being willing to practice in LA sounds like a decent recipe for success to me.

[BiteyTLS]

0 dollars. Under 30k total debt after graduation.