UVA v. NYU Forum

[thickfreakness]

What happened to TLS? I think this is the first time I've seen a thread where people recommend NYU over UVA to someone who wants something other than NYC BigLaw.

Somebody beat the UVA trolls to the thread...

[Rand M.]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

That hiring partner must have been jerking your chain. Even Wachtell is going to consider someone who's #1 in their class at UVA or is just coming off a SCOTUS clerkship. Between all the Law Review people in 2011, I'm sure every V10 firm interviewed at least one person from UVA.

+1
That assertion sounds like pure conjecture. If there were a 'Top 5' I'm not sure that NYU would make it in over Chicago; maybe for NYC, but absolutely nowhere else. US News=/=everything. And this is coming from someone admitted to and considering NYU.

[09042014]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

That hiring partner must have been jerking your chain. Even Wachtell is going to consider someone who's #1 in their class at UVA or is just coming off a SCOTUS clerkship. Between all the Law Review people in 2011, I'm sure every V10 firm interviewed at least one person from UVA.

I thought Watchell doesn't OCI at UVA? There are only two attorneys from UVA at their firm and one is a NYU LLM. I'm guessing the other is a lateral.

Who cares though. It's an unrepresentative sampling of job prospects. Comparing placement at median is more relevant.

[RVP11]

Even in NYC, I think the higher ups in the legal establishment recognize that the top 5 is indeed YHSCC.

[RVP11]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

That hiring partner must have been jerking your chain. Even Wachtell is going to consider someone who's #1 in their class at UVA or is just coming off a SCOTUS clerkship. Between all the Law Review people in 2011, I'm sure every V10 firm interviewed at least one person from UVA.

I thought Watchell doesn't OCI at UVA? There are only two attorneys from UVA at their firm and one is a NYU LLM. I'm guessing the other is a lateral.

Who cares though. It's an unrepresentative sampling of job prospects. Comparing placement at median is more relevant.

Not doing OCI at a school =/= not accepting applications or not interviewing anyone from a school. Wachtell does OCI at UCLA and Howard, but not at Michigan, but you can sure bet that anyone at Michigan has a better chance at Wachtell than a person at UCLA or Howard with equal class rank.

[Rand M.]

Not doing OCI at a school =/= not accepting applications or not interviewing anyone from a school. Wachtell does OCI at UCLA and Howard, but not at Michigan, but you can sure bet that anyone at Michigan has a better chance at Wachtell than a person at UCLA or Howard with equal class rank.

That's really not true. Top of the class at Howard has a huuuuge advantage over top of the class at Michigan (with regards to Wachtell. This can be seen from the fact that they don't OCI there. Top of the class at Howard is better off than most everyone at almost any other school.

[RVP11]

Not doing OCI at a school =/= not accepting applications or not interviewing anyone from a school. Wachtell does OCI at UCLA and Howard, but not at Michigan, but you can sure bet that anyone at Michigan has a better chance at Wachtell than a person at UCLA or Howard with equal class rank.

That's really not true. Top of the class at Howard has a huuuuge advantage over top of the class at Michigan (with regards to Wachtell. This can be seen from the fact that they don't OCI there. Top of the class at Howard is better off than most everyone at almost any other school.

I stand corrected. I should have used UCLA and Texas my examples.

The point was more to point out the absurdity of equating where a firm does OCI with where you'd actually have the best chance of getting a job.

[scribelaw]

Isn't LRAP a moot point if the OP wants to get a federal job (DOJ, Labor)? After a few years and a few raises wouldn't his/her salary be over the limit?

Not likely.

Here's how NYU's LRAP works: At $47,600 and below (gross, not adjusted gross, income), you contribute nothing; from $47,600-$67,600, you contribute 40% of the income above $47,600; from $67,600-$77,600, you contribute 50% of the income above $67,600 (plus the 40% of income between $47,600 and $67,600).

At Virginia, LRAP covers everything up to $35k in salary, but you must pay 50 percent on salary above that. I'll be interested to see the new program, becuase the one they offer now is pretty terrible.

If OP considers Columbia, that LRAP is even better. You contribute nothing up to $50,000 and 34.5 percent on salary above that.

[ravens20]

Even in NYC, I think the higher ups in the legal establishment recognize that the top 5 is indeed YHSCC.

Not so sure that Chicago beats NYU in New York City but it is an irrelevant point. Who cares what schools are the "real top 5"? We are comparing UVA to NYU here.


NYU pretty much specializes in public interest and has arguably the best LRAP program in the country (although I would honestly give the slight edge to Columbia). As some other have stated in this thread, that LRAP program pretty much negates the advantages of taking money to go to UVA.

The best advantage of NYU is that it holds the primary public interest fair for New York City in which NYU students are guaranteed a certain number of interview slots (as per terms of organizations coming to the fair). This includes some very prestigious opportunities such as the the Manhattan DA, the NYC law dept, both SDNY/EDNY USAO's, ACLU, etc. NYU also guarantees funding in 1L and 2L summers for all interested students through its PILC program ($4500 1L yr, $6500 2L yr). I can't speak to the opportunities for public interest at UVA because I haven't researched them, but NYU certainly seems to be worth looking at if you are interested in doing public interest.

And as a fallback, NYU definitely outplaces UVA in biglaw. Whether you are looking at summer associate rates at V100 firms, Leiter's elite firm placement index, NLJ250 placement, placement into biglaw while finishing around median (all of which I posted in the bitter pessimism thread for reference), NYU has a legitimate advantage over UVA. Now granted perhaps the V100 and NLJ250 are skewed toward bigger markets like NYC, but the stats still tell a telling tale.

[LSlobbyist]

I'm going to try and summarize this thread. Bear with me, and in advance, please forgive me.

1) If OP wants "Big Law," then he would likely be better off taking NYU, regardless of whatever merit aid UVA offers him.

2) If OP wants to clerk or work in government in DC, UVA would be a better choice, given their a) geographical proximity to DC, b) recent pattern of success with placing graduates in clerkships, and c) lower cost.

3) If OP wants to go PI, and UVA fails to offer significant merit aid, take NYU b/c of its vastly superior LRAP.

My thought? If OP ends up at UVA, he will end up kicking himself for not going to NYU. Seems like he's trying to justify paying sticker there, and that if he does not go there, he will spend the entire time wondering "what if."

[ravens20]

I would also add that if DC litigation botiques are your cup of tea, I'm sure UVA places as well as or likely better than NYU.

As for your worry of a culture clash at UVA, having visited there several times during unergrad, I never got the sense that they were anti-liberal or anything like that so you'll be fine.

[insidethetwenty]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

This is shocking to me.

Would you say, from your experience, that even if you didn't want to work in NYC, you might still want to go to NYU or Columbia so that you can get firm experience and money during 1L and 2L summer?

[twistedwrister]

Re clerking, I don't think UVA holds any advantage over NYU. Perhaps it did in the past (and I'm not even sure about that), but not now. NYU recently created a judicial clerkship office to help students who want to clerk, and the school is emphasizing clerking to a greater extent than it has in the past.

From the NYU Law School website, http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/j ... /index.htm

"New York University School of Law has a very successful judicial clerkship program. Each year more than 130 NYU School of Law graduates work as judicial clerks.

Significantly, during the fall 2010 term, 45 NYU alumni will be clerking on the federal courts of appeals, including 7 on the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and 10 on the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. In addition, 3 of the 10 clerks on the Delaware Court of Chancery, the nation’s preeminent forum for resolving business disputes, will be NYU graduates. NYU graduates have also clerked at the United States Supreme Court and at the International Court of Justice in the Hague."

45 COA clerks is pretty impressive...not in YHSChicago land quite yet, but impressive.

[showNprove]

Re clerking, I don't think UVA holds any advantage over NYU. Perhaps it did in the past (and I'm not even sure about that), but not now. NYU recently created a judicial clerkship office to help students who want to clerk, and the school is emphasizing clerking to a greater extent than it has in the past.

From the NYU Law School website, http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/j ... /index.htm

"New York University School of Law has a very successful judicial clerkship program. Each year more than 130 NYU School of Law graduates work as judicial clerks.

Significantly, during the fall 2010 term, 45 NYU alumni will be clerking on the federal courts of appeals, including 7 on the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and 10 on the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. In addition, 3 of the 10 clerks on the Delaware Court of Chancery, the nation’s preeminent forum for resolving business disputes, will be NYU graduates. NYU graduates have also clerked at the United States Supreme Court and at the International Court of Justice in the Hague."

45 COA clerks is pretty impressive...not in YHSChicago land quite yet, but impressive.

I'm pretty sure that includes all alumni -- not just graduating students. This link seems to be misleading, especially if there are any full-time clerks from NYU (which I'm sure there are). After all, do you really think NYU places 26% of its class (130/~500 graduates) into clerkships each year? That's ridiculous.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

Virginia places 12.4% of its graduates into federal clerkships. NYU is only 7.3%.

[im_blue]

You have a 3.8/173; why are Columbia, Chicago, and Harvard not in the equation?

[virginiagirl55]

I'm experiencing the exact same problem. Virginia resident (and lover), $75,000 at UVA plus my parents agreeing to pay the entirety of my living expenses if I agree to go to Virginia. Not 100% set on BigLaw, but if i was, would probably rather practice in Atlanta (I'm not particularly in love with NYC). The max debt i could graduate Virginia with given my parental contribution is 30,000, and probably less, maybe nothing. Unlike, OP, I'm kind of a right-winger (and by kind of i mean extremely). I have interest in human rights law, and obviously NYU is the choice in terms of that interest alone, but I am not married to that idea, and could end up practicing anything to be honest. in terms of general happiness, i know i will prefer UVA, but is that what law school is about?

bah so conflicted, and my psycho southern, liberal-hating parents are of zero help.

[RVP11]

I'm experiencing the exact same problem. Virginia resident (and lover), $75,000 at UVA plus my parents agreeing to pay the entirety of my living expenses if I agree to go to Virginia. Not 100% set on BigLaw, but if i was, would probably rather practice in Atlanta (I'm not particularly in love with NYC). The max debt i could graduate Virginia with given my parental contribution is 30,000, and probably less, maybe nothing. Unlike, OP, I'm kind of a right-winger (and by kind of i mean extremely). I have interest in human rights law, and obviously NYU is the choice in terms of that interest alone, but I am not married to that idea, and could end up practicing anything to be honest. in terms of general happiness, i know i will prefer UVA, but is that what law school is about?

bah so conflicted, and my psycho southern, liberal-hating parents are of zero help.

I think going to NYU in your situation would be insane.

[virginiagirl55]

glad to hear someone else thinks so... everyone at my undergrad thinks im insane to turn down nyu.

[Kohinoor]

Even in NYC, I think the higher ups in the legal establishment recognize that the top 5 is indeed YHSCC.

tcr. The V10 thing is clearly flame because no V10 firm throws away Chicago resumes.

[Kronk]

I chose NYU over UVA last year. Couldn't be happier - I have a V100 Biglaw firm job lined up here in NYC for my 1L summer and I am just somewhere around the median of my class at NYU. The T5 vs. T14 dynamic actually matters more than you think - I have a good friend at UVA in the top-30% of the class and he has had 0 success finding a firm job this summer (except for unpaid internships and pro bono work). He has better stats than I in every regard (higher LSAT, better grades, higher undergrad GPA, etc.) I, on the other hand, have had multiple offers here in NYC.

Also, the hiring partner at a V10 firm told me they only accept applications from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU and Columbia. They won't even look at applications below those 5. I know you aren't as interested in Biglaw, but the same principles apply to prestigious public interest work (I turned down an offer to work with a federal judge and the US Attorney's Office).

For me, turning down the UVA scholarship for NYU was a great decision and I don't regret it in the least.

Good luck deciding.

I might make this decision as well. Would you still take NYU vs. UVA with $90,000?

[democrattotheend]

You have a 3.8/173; why are Columbia, Chicago, and Harvard not in the equation?

I applied to Columbia and Harvard, though from what I know about the two schools, I am inclined to think that NYU makes more sense and is a better fit for me than Columbia. Obviously it would be hard to turn down Harvard, but I doubt I will get in. Ditto with Stanford and Yale.

I did not apply to Chicago because I decided it was too corporate and too cold, and I decided it just didn't make sense to apply there. I didn't apply to Cornell, Michigan, or Northwestern either, because the weather is too cold and I was already in at UVA so I didn't see the point.

[democrattotheend]

I'm going to try and summarize this thread. Bear with me, and in advance, please forgive me.

1) If OP wants "Big Law," then he would likely be better off taking NYU, regardless of whatever merit aid UVA offers him.

2) If OP wants to clerk or work in government in DC, UVA would be a better choice, given their a) geographical proximity to DC, b) recent pattern of success with placing graduates in clerkships, and c) lower cost.

3) If OP wants to go PI, and UVA fails to offer significant merit aid, take NYU b/c of its vastly superior LRAP.

My thought? If OP ends up at UVA, he will end up kicking himself for not going to NYU. Seems like he's trying to justify paying sticker there, and that if he does not go there, he will spend the entire time wondering "what if."

I am actually a she, but otherwise, you read me pretty well. Like I said, my heart says NYU, but my head says it's too risky to borrow so much money.

I am wary of relying on LRAP, because the terms of the program can change, it doesn't cover certain types of employment ( for example, I might want to work at a plaintiff-side firm that does employment discrimination cases, but I don't think NYU's LRAP would necessarily cover that, even though it pays a lot less than a corporate firm). Also, my understanding is that if you can't find a public interest job, LRAP is of no help. also, looking at the fine print for NYU's LRAP program, it appears that you have to continuously maintain public interest employment for three years, or else you owe interest on all the LRAP money you received so far. So unless I misunderstood, it seems like someone who gets a job as a public defender after law school but gets laid off after a year and a half due to state budget cuts would then owe interest on the LRAP loans they received.

Relying on LRAP just seems too risky, especially in this economy.

[scribelaw]

I'm going to try and summarize this thread. Bear with me, and in advance, please forgive me.

1) If OP wants "Big Law," then he would likely be better off taking NYU, regardless of whatever merit aid UVA offers him.

2) If OP wants to clerk or work in government in DC, UVA would be a better choice, given their a) geographical proximity to DC, b) recent pattern of success with placing graduates in clerkships, and c) lower cost.

3) If OP wants to go PI, and UVA fails to offer significant merit aid, take NYU b/c of its vastly superior LRAP.

My thought? If OP ends up at UVA, he will end up kicking himself for not going to NYU. Seems like he's trying to justify paying sticker there, and that if he does not go there, he will spend the entire time wondering "what if."

I am actually a she, but otherwise, you read me pretty well. Like I said, my heart says NYU, but my head says it's too risky to borrow so much money.

I am wary of relying on LRAP, because the terms of the program can change, it doesn't cover certain types of employment ( for example, I might want to work at a plaintiff-side firm that does employment discrimination cases, but I don't think NYU's LRAP would necessarily cover that, even though it pays a lot less than a corporate firm). Also, my understanding is that if you can't find a public interest job, LRAP is of no help. also, looking at the fine print for NYU's LRAP program, it appears that you have to continuously maintain public interest employment for three years, or else you owe interest on all the LRAP money you received so far. So unless I misunderstood, it seems like someone who gets a job as a public defender after law school but gets laid off after a year and a half due to state budget cuts would then owe interest on the LRAP loans they received.

Relying on LRAP just seems too risky, especially in this economy.

I think this is credited, in assessing the risks associated with banking on LRAP.

However, I would point out that if you look at any unemployment data, government sector is always more stable than private. (And if you get laid off in the private sector, those loans payments are still coming in the mail. What then?)

In addition, public defender and prosecutor offices have very high turnover -- upwards of 20 percent at a lot of places -- so layoffs are even less likely than government at large. If anything, they won't fill vacant positions and you'll have a horrific caseload.

[Kronk]

FWIW, I hear that UVA is working on its LRAP for next year to make it significantly better.

[LSlobbyist]

OP, sorry for the pronoun confusion.

In any case, I think the key part of the equation for you is that you would like to work in DC. From that perspective, UVa appears to trump NYU. If you wanted to work in a large firm in NYC or in public interest in the Northeast, then NYU would be the obvious choice, but given your career ambitions, UVa seems to be a better fit.

I'm assuming that part of what makes this decision so difficult is that you'd be walking away from an admission at a higher ranked school. But you wouldn't exactly be slumming it in Charlottesville at a top-10 school, and based on your current preferences, UVa seems to be the right decision for you from a big-picture perspective. From what I've gleaned from the lawyers and lobbyists that I've talked to, I wouldn't say that choosing UVa over NYU or vice-versa would truly close any doors--but it could certainly make pursuing some career paths more difficult (which is gives me pause in my own decision-making process between the two schools, as while I'd like to be in DC as well, I also have a soft spot for NYC). But the ones that you seem be interested in most appear to be more readily accessible with a UVa degree than one from NYU.

I can't say that this is an ego thing for you, but I can honestly tell you that it plays a small part of it for me, as much as I have tried to tell myself otherwise. Logically, we should want to go the higher ranked school--and it doesn't hurt that NYU has a sterling reputation in public interest, high quality of life, and great placement in NYC. But you have to look at it in the context of your own preferences--simply because a school is slotted higher in the rankings (amid the T14, at least) doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best for you or your particular career (which is part of the reason why I assume that you didn't apply to Columbia or Chicago).

As I'm facing almost the exact same choice, I'll be interested to see what you decide. Congrats on your dilemma, and good luck!