Notre Dame vs. William & Mary vs. Fordham Forum

[jwrit07]

I love my school to pieces, and would not have gone anywhere else. NYC COL is expensive, but it's ridiculous to claim $160k wouldn't give you a very good life here. I live on student loans, and I have a very good life here. I'm not living like a princess, but I have a shared apartment a block from Central Park, and I have everything I need.

I'm not going to badmouth ND. I can think of at least one person who loves that school as much as I love Fordham. I think the person who recommended visiting is 100% right. These schools are extremely different-- like night and day. ND is a fabulous school, but it wouldn't be right for me at all. ND is also far wealthier than Fordham is; my school is not being stingy-- Fordham has nothing more to give. I wish it were otherwise, and I would love to see more scholarships in the offing. I think our profile is only going to rise, what with the new law school building, and Fordham is gaining recognition outside this area, though most grads tend to stay nearby. Fordham will always have New York, and Lincoln Center is our quad. Every day on my way to class, I walk in front of the Met. I can't put a price tag on that. I expect to work in PI and have my loans forgiven, but I promised myself at the outset I would not let money make this choice for me. I followed my heart, and I'm very glad I did.

OP, when the school is right, I firmly believe that you will know.

Re biglaw at Fordham: we traditionally placed top third out to forty percent. During the boom we hit 43.7%, plus another 7% or so doing clerkships, so top half was pretty set. We don't have 2009 numbers, but I would guess hiring is down by half or more. I have only anecdotal evidence, so I don't want to speculate or post information that is incorrect. This phenomenon is happening across the board-- things are probably really bad at the NYC T2 and T3 schools. This economy won't last forever, though.

Thank you for your incredible insight. What is the competition like at Fordham? I would imagine there are a ton of people who had NYU and maybe even Columbia numbers but could not get in just because there are only so many seats, thus making competition ridiculously intense, thus making top 1/3 or even 1/2 even more difficult. I would imagine Fordham would be the most competitive school maybe in the 25-30 range. (Not that I'm shying away from competition but I must seriously ask myself if I want to place myself in that sort of environment. Maybe I will maybe I wont!)

[jwrit07]

Anecdotally (all we have are anecdotes at this point, from any school) ND kids are facing a similar situation, though they tend to disperse a lot more. There is no school below the T14 where things are going well, and even the T14 kids worry.

Even if things rock this semester, I'm going to stick with my school. I'm really happy here. You should come visit if you are considering it, and certainly go visit ND and W&M.

Definitely plan on visiting. For two years I borderline obsessed about going to Fordham now that I've been admitted is almost surreal. Can't wait to see Lincoln Center.

[OperaSoprano]

Anecdotally (all we have are anecdotes at this point, from any school) ND kids are facing a similar situation, though they tend to disperse a lot more. There is no school below the T14 where things are going well, and even the T14 kids worry.

Even if things rock this semester, I'm going to stick with my school. I'm really happy here. You should come visit if you are considering it, and certainly go visit ND and W&M.

Definitely plan on visiting. For two years I borderline obsessed about going to Fordham now that I've been admitted is almost surreal. Can't wait to see Lincoln Center.

It is surreal. I'll send you a PM.

[vanwinkle]

Definitely plan on visiting. For two years I borderline obsessed about going to Fordham now that I've been admitted is almost surreal. Can't wait to see Lincoln Center.

I'm attending a T14 and visiting Lincoln Center almost made me wish I was going to Fordham.

[OperaSoprano]

Definitely plan on visiting. For two years I borderline obsessed about going to Fordham now that I've been admitted is almost surreal. Can't wait to see Lincoln Center.

I'm attending a T14 and visiting Lincoln Center almost made me wish I was going to Fordham.

Isn't it breathtakingly beautiful? After everything that's happened since the day I got in, taking that walk to class still gets to me.

Charlottesville is so charming, though. I want to come down there when the snow melts.

[jwrit07]

anyone been to W&M campus in Williamsburg, VA?

[danidancer]

anyone been to W&M campus in Williamsburg, VA?

I visited when I was considering it for undergrad. It's stunning. But the law school isn't on the campus proper as far as I understand, so I can't speak to it. The undergrad campus is wonderful though.

[jwrit07]

anyone been to W&M campus in Williamsburg, VA?

I visited when I was considering it for undergrad. It's stunning. But the law school isn't on the campus proper as far as I understand, so I can't speak to it. The undergrad campus is wonderful though.

From what I understand the law school is 6 blocks away. Dont visit till March so idk.

[MainBrad]

I am a W&M 2L. The campus is nice, but we are a few blocks away from the stunning undergrad camupus. I don't want to bad mouth my program, but I am in the top 5% of my class and I am still having a hard time finding a job. Hopefully, for you 2013 or 14? students the economy won't be so bad. If you are set on biglaw, I would recommend Fordham. We typically place about 1/3 of our class in firms, but in this economy, I only know about 5 or 6 people getting firm jobs this summer. Our OCI was pathetic, only about 10 firms total, maybe in NYC you would get more opportunities. I don't know for sure since I've never been there, but it seems likely. However, I love the school, and I have been very happy here, the price is certainly right, if nothing else. If you have any questions about William & Mary I would be happy to answer. Best of luck.

[danidancer]

I don't want to bad mouth my program, but I am in the top 5% of my class and I am still having a hard time finding a job. Hopefully, for you 2013 or 14? students the economy won't be so bad. If you are set on biglaw, I would recommend Fordham. We typically place about 1/3 of our class in firms, but in this economy, I only know about 5 or 6 people getting firm jobs this summer. Our OCI was pathetic, only about 10 firms total.

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[Pearalegal]

I don't want to bad mouth my program, but I am in the top 5% of my class and I am still having a hard time finding a job. Hopefully, for you 2013 or 14? students the economy won't be so bad. If you are set on biglaw, I would recommend Fordham. We typically place about 1/3 of our class in firms, but in this economy, I only know about 5 or 6 people getting firm jobs this summer. Our OCI was pathetic, only about 10 firms total.

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I know someone at median at Columbia with no offers, if it helps ease the shock regarding Fordham.

[Harry Ballsogna]

I am a W&M 2L. The campus is nice, but we are a few blocks away from the stunning undergrad camupus. I don't want to bad mouth my program, but I am in the top 5% of my class and I am still having a hard time finding a job. Hopefully, for you 2013 or 14? students the economy won't be so bad. If you are set on biglaw, I would recommend Fordham. We typically place about 1/3 of our class in firms, but in this economy, I only know about 5 or 6 people getting firm jobs this summer. Our OCI was pathetic, only about 10 firms total, maybe in NYC you would get more opportunities. I don't know for sure since I've never been there, but it seems likely. However, I love the school, and I have been very happy here, the price is certainly right, if nothing else. If you have any questions about William & Mary I would be happy to answer. Best of luck.

Wow... seriously only 10 firms at OCI?

LSN lists W&M with 190 firms the 2007-2008 year. Obviously ITE has slammed schools everywhere... but that is ridiculous.

[keg411]

I don't think that can be right. NALP even lists a few NJ firms that do OCI at W&M.

If I were OP, I'd say pick a market. DC/VA - William & Mary, Chicago/Midwest - ND, New York metro - Fordham
If OP is debt-adverse, go to W&M as that is the cheapest option and they're all similar in ranking.

[wadeny]

I voted W&M. Biglaw from any of these schools is really a crapshoot right now and could be for the next couple years at least - that's not to say it's impossible, but the odds are certainly stacked against you. While ND has an excellent alumni base (it's biggest advantage for biglaw from what I've heard) and Fordham is located in NYC (a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it), W&M is much, much cheaper. And ITE, less debt=win.

The school itself also boasts a decent reputation. While mostly regional, it is close to Richmond and DC (two areas not as hard hit by the recession and offering more secure govt. positions than Chicago/NYC) and has alumni scattered throughout the country. Williamsburg isn't a booming metropolis, but it is less than an hour drive from Richmond and VA Beach and should offer enough amenities to get you through law school. You should go visit, it's a really nice area.

[jwrit07]

Anybody know what percent of the class one has to graduate in at Notre Dame for BIGLAW in Chi or cities outside the midwest region?

[sirchristaylor]

In terms of a 160K salary in NYC, I believe you'll be paying about 60k of that in taxes. And let me tell you, you can live wonderfully well on 100k/year in Manhattan. You can live in a great area, eat out all the time, drink what you wish, and still save a little bit. You just have to be smart about the way you're spending and saving your money. It may take you a few years to get in the groove of things and figure out how to live this way, but it's definitely possible. I did it making less money a year for many years.

[OperaSoprano]

In terms of a 160K salary in NYC, I believe you'll be paying about 60k of that in taxes. And let me tell you, you can live wonderfully well on 100k/year in Manhattan. You can live in a great area, eat out all the time, drink what you wish, and still save a little bit. You just have to be smart about the way you're spending and saving your money. It may take you a few years to get in the groove of things and figure out how to live this way, but it's definitely possible. I did it making less money a year for many years.

You can live in Manhattan on $40k a year, provided you are careful, don't mind not living like a princess, and share an apartment, either with an SO or roommate. This doesn't take loan payments into consideration, so you would want this to be a job covered by your school's LRAP, with IBR to help with any slack.

Before anyone wants to tell me it isn't possible, I'm doing it now on less.

In general, you have to decide what matters most to you. I would have sacrificed anything for the life I now have, and there are things I can't do, like take lavish spring break trips or go off the reservation at Barneys. On the whole, I'm not sorry I didn't try to do it on the cheap. We only get to do this once.

[MainBrad]

Sorry for the hyperbole. We definitely had more than 10 firms at OCI, but law school is riskier than ever in this economy. Be prepared to do a lot of legwork in order to land summer employment. If you do well your first year at any of the schools we're discussing, you will get a couple of interviews with good firms. Prepare and practice before the interview. Have an answer to the question "why our firm?", be enthusiastic about the firm and don't let the conversation drift too far off topic, you need to sell yourself. The Q4 numbers for 2009 were very good, and the demand for legal services will return, but I don't think it will ever be like it was. The government is also hiring, and W&M is well placed for these jobs, DC is within reasonable driving distance (2.5 hour average, with moderate traffic), so interviews are manageable.

[Harry Ballsogna]

Sorry for the hyperbole. We definitely had more than 10 firms at OCI, but law school is riskier than ever in this economy. Be prepared to do a lot of legwork in order to land summer employment. If you do well your first year at any of the schools we're discussing, you will get a couple of interviews with good firms. Prepare and practice before the interview. Have an answer to the question "why our firm?", be enthusiastic about the firm and don't let the conversation drift too far off topic, you need to sell yourself. The Q4 numbers for 2009 were very good, and the demand for legal services will return, but I don't think it will ever be like it was. The government is also hiring, and W&M is well placed for these jobs, DC is within reasonable driving distance (2.5 hour average, with moderate traffic), so interviews are manageable.

I knew 10 wasn't a literal number, I guess its more the top 5% thing that has me freaked out. I mean wtf. How can any school out of the t14 be worth it if top 5% can't even land a SA right now.

Whats the general mood like at W&M right now? Are people pretty bummed across the board? Any more general thoughts/experiences/advice would be greatly appreciated.

[jwrit07]

anybody able to share some insight on how Notre Dame is holding up in this economy?

[Genesis]

Also would like to know how ND is holding up...

[jwrit07]

???

[Stringer Bell]

anybody able to share some insight on how Notre Dame is holding up in this economy?

I'm just passing this along, but I believe the guy who has the tar of himself in the background of an ESPN shot of Harangody shooting a free throw posted somewhere that several top 10% LR people did not get offers.

[jwrit07]

discouraging but good to know. thanks.

[OperaSoprano]

anybody able to share some insight on how Notre Dame is holding up in this economy?

I'm just passing this along, but I believe the guy who has the tar of himself in the background of an ESPN shot of Harangody shooting a free throw posted somewhere that several top 10% LR people did not get offers.

You mean edgar? Yeah, I talked to him. The class of 2011 has it rough, but to be fair I don't think that's confined to ND.