Columbia sticker or Michigan w/$? Forum

[blue16]

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

DATA SAYS Columbia isn't that much better than Michigan. With $30k in Cost of Living Difference added to that scholarship you're looking at an extra $100k for Columbia. Steep price, which might be worth it for the added prestige of Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, but Columbia? It's up to you. I'd take the money at Michigan in a New York second (yes, admittedly biased, but trying to be objective).

[starstruck393]

Depends on how you feel about debt.
If you are debt averse, Michigan with $ is a great opportunity that many on this board would die to be offered.
On the the other hand, Columbia is a higher financial risk. However, with higher risk comes higher possible returns.

I'm going to vote Michigan this time, but you have two great opportunities no matter which you choose.

Actually, the possible returns are essentially identical. An NYC biglaw job with a CLS degree will pay essentially the same as an NYC degree with a Michigan degree. What you probably meant was that CLS would give a better chance of high returns.

I actually think Michigan can be considered to give better odds overall. Top 1/3 at either school would give about the same odds to NYC biglaw. CLS would probably give better odds to the premier (V10ish) firms, but you're really going to be starting to split hairs in comparing firms. And so I'd give the advantage to Michigan, with very close placement chances but with less debt. Middle 1/3 is where CLS will probably win, as the lower you go in that group, the harder it would be to get that biglaw job from Michigan, while CLS would still give decent chances. But in the bottom 1/3, you're going to have problems getting biglaw from either school, and I'd give the advantage there to Michigan for coming out with less debt. In my mind, Michigan wins those groupings 2-1...

You really have to decide whether you are more job placement averse or debt averse, because that's what it comes down to...

[Veyron]

If the OP was an I-Banker, I'm pretty sure that BIGLAW is going to be some horrible torture for them.

[wackadoodle]

If you wanted to do anything except a big firm I would say Michigan. But for a big firm I would say Columbia- that said a Michigan degree certainly won't hold you back.

[keg411]

I'd pick the TTMAR option in this case. I know CCN > MVP, but it's not that far off and debt is scary. Plus there is cost of living savings to keep in mind as well as Ann Arbor is way cheaper than NYC. If just standard NYC BigLaw is what the OP wants, Michigan should be fine as NYC is the easiest market to get BigLaw from (the only way OP should take Columbia is if he/she is "V10 or Bust").

[1WingedAngel]

If you're positive you want to live and work in NYC, Columbia sounds like a fitting choice.

[prelaw10]

If you're positive you want to live and work in NYC, maybe it would be nice to spend three years in a different environment -- just a consideration you might want to take.

[FlightoftheEarls]

I'd pick the TTMAR option in this case. I know CCN > MVP, but it's not that far off and debt is scary. Plus there is cost of living savings to keep in mind as well as Ann Arbor is way cheaper than NYC. If just standard NYC BigLaw is what the OP wants, Michigan should be fine as NYC is the easiest market to get BigLaw from (the only way OP should take Columbia is if he/she is "V10 or Bust").

TITCR.

You can break V10 from Michigan, but it will be easier from Columbia (you can be a bit lower in the CLS class and still be competitive for V10 jobs, that is). If you have your heart set on V10, then it might be worth the extra money to help increase those chances a bit. Apart from that, Michigan will get you a NYC biglaw job just fine, and high enough in the class can still get you V10. The decision is whether that class percentage "comfort-padding" for V10 jobs is worth the difference in debt to OP.

[NY88]

Go to Columbia. NYC vs. Ann Arbor? CLS carries weight internationally as well.

[tamlyric]

I actually think Michigan can be considered to give better odds overall. Top 1/3 at either school would give about the same odds to NYC biglaw. CLS would probably give better odds to the premier (V10ish) firms, but you're really going to be starting to split hairs in comparing firms. And so I'd give the advantage to Michigan, with very close placement chances but with less debt. Middle 1/3 is where CLS will probably win, as the lower you go in that group, the harder it would be to get that biglaw job from Michigan, while CLS would still give decent chances. But in the bottom 1/3, you're going to have problems getting biglaw from either school, and I'd give the advantage there to Michigan for coming out with less debt. In my mind, Michigan wins those groupings 2-1...

THIS.

[chadwick218]

Unless you have a strong draw / ties to Michigan, go to Columbia. CLS will offer marginally better job prospects, but I think that the final decision is one that is personal in nature.

[rayiner]

Columbia. If you want NYC biglaw, you might as well do it in a top firm, and CLS outpaces Michigan widely in NYC V10 firms.

[imchuckbass58]

So, in the interest of full disclosure, I go to CLS, but I don't think that biases my judgment - I've often recommended people go to other places w/$ over CLS.

That said, given your goals, I think there's absolutely no question you should go to CLS. CLS destroys Michigan for NYC biglaw placement, especially transactional. Several judges and partners here in NYC have told me that CLS pulls about as much as Harvard in New York, and noticeably more than any other school save Yale and maybe NYU. These are boom statistics, but I think they illustrate relative placement pretty well: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/ (before everyone starts whining about how this is new york biased, it is, but remember OP wants to practice in New York). CLS had 3x the V10 placement, and 2x placement in the V25, V50 and V100. This isn't entirely due to self-selection.

67k is nothing to laugh at, but in my opinion, it's not going to tangibly change your life path. 120k in debt isn't qualitatively different from 200k in debt - they're both a shitload, and something you're probably not paying off without a biglaw job.

I'd also echo other posters in saying think about where you want to be median ITE. Median at CLS is still doing quite well (all things considered). I can't speak for median at Michigan, but CLS has held up quite well - the rumors I've heard about the 2Ls are 90% employed for the summer, with somewhere around 2/3 of the class in biglaw.

Also, how much free time do you think you will have while you are working 70 hour weeks at your white shoe firm? I don't understand why you want to be in NYC so badly... the inside of an office building looks the same pretty much everywhere. It sounds romantic, but I would be wary saying that you want to do corporate litigation in NYC as a 0L when you can't possibly know that.

I think the fact that you work 70 hours a week only makes it more important that you be somewhere you enjoy. I worked a 65 hour per week job before LS, and contrary to popular opinion, you can still have a social/family life, and I was very glad that I was in New York to have it. Since OP's family is in New York, I think it would be a lot better if he could visit them on weekends or duck out for dinner.

Also, people with work experience generally have a better idea of what they want to do in terms of practice area. If you've worked with lawyers before I don't think it's naive to say that you have some idea of what interests you, even if that might change.

[gossipgirl]

Thanks for everyone's help!

I've basically decided to go to Columbia (pending my ASW visit) because after reading about BigLaw and the different types of deals attorneys get to work on, I'm most attracted by the V5 and the quality of the work they handle. I feel that I would maximize my chances at getting a job with one of these firms in NYC by going to Columbia and taking on a bit more debt. I

I also know that to make myself more competitive for one of these firms, I'll need a bit of work experience and so I'm pretty set on deferring Columbia for two years and working for a top 5 hedge fund in NYC. I think the combination of this experience and going to Columbia will help me reach my goal.

Thanks again to everyone here!

[booboo]

Thanks for everyone's help!

I've basically decided to go to Columbia (pending my ASW visit) because after reading about BigLaw and the different types of deals attorneys get to work on, I'm most attracted by the V5 and the quality of the work they handle. I feel that I would maximize my chances at getting a job with one of these firms in NYC by going to Columbia and taking on a bit more debt. I

I also know that to make myself more competitive for one of these firms, I'll need a bit of work experience and so I'm pretty set on deferring Columbia for two years and working for a top 5 hedge fund in NYC. I think the combination of this experience and going to Columbia will help me reach my goal.

Thanks again to everyone here!

A two year deferral is possible?

[parker09]

Thanks for everyone's help!

I've basically decided to go to Columbia (pending my ASW visit) because after reading about BigLaw and the different types of deals attorneys get to work on, I'm most attracted by the V5 and the quality of the work they handle. I feel that I would maximize my chances at getting a job with one of these firms in NYC by going to Columbia and taking on a bit more debt. I

I also know that to make myself more competitive for one of these firms, I'll need a bit of work experience and so I'm pretty set on deferring Columbia for two years and working for a top 5 hedge fund in NYC. I think the combination of this experience and going to Columbia will help me reach my goal.

Thanks again to everyone here!

Wow, a decision based on research and a solid goal... refreshing

[gossipgirl]

Thanks for everyone's help!

I've basically decided to go to Columbia (pending my ASW visit) because after reading about BigLaw and the different types of deals attorneys get to work on, I'm most attracted by the V5 and the quality of the work they handle. I feel that I would maximize my chances at getting a job with one of these firms in NYC by going to Columbia and taking on a bit more debt. I

I also know that to make myself more competitive for one of these firms, I'll need a bit of work experience and so I'm pretty set on deferring Columbia for two years and working for a top 5 hedge fund in NYC. I think the combination of this experience and going to Columbia will help me reach my goal.

Thanks again to everyone here!

A two year deferral is possible?

I'm pretty sure it's allowed for any reason. On their Admitted Student Page, they write:

"Columbia Law School maintains a very liberal deferral policy — one to two years after admission — and the deadline to declare intent to defer is June 1, 2010. If you would like to defer your matriculation at Columbia Law School until the fall of 2011 or 2012, please contact Danielle Flores, Assistant Director of Admissions (danielle.flores@law.columbia.edu) to begin this process."

[Dignan]

Thanks for everyone's help!

I've basically decided to go to Columbia (pending my ASW visit) because after reading about BigLaw and the different types of deals attorneys get to work on, I'm most attracted by the V5 and the quality of the work they handle. I feel that I would maximize my chances at getting a job with one of these firms in NYC by going to Columbia and taking on a bit more debt. I

I also know that to make myself more competitive for one of these firms, I'll need a bit of work experience and so I'm pretty set on deferring Columbia for two years and working for a top 5 hedge fund in NYC. I think the combination of this experience and going to Columbia will help me reach my goal.

Thanks again to everyone here!

Wow, a decision based on research and a solid goal... refreshing

I don't think it's refreshing; I think it's appalling. Everyone knows that the proper way to make a life-altering decision is to create a poll for an audience of very opinionated people who know next to nothing about real life. The OP's approach--which involves formulating a career goal and then doing substantive research about that goal--will lead to a life of unhappiness and poverty.

[awesomepossum]

Columbia. If you want NYC biglaw, you might as well do it in a top firm, and CLS outpaces Michigan widely in NYC V10 firms.

Now I feel guilty for choosing a crappy V15 firm over a V10.

[rayiner]

Columbia. If you want NYC biglaw, you might as well do it in a top firm, and CLS outpaces Michigan widely in NYC V10 firms.

Now I feel guilty for choosing a crappy V15 firm over a V10.

[parker09]

I don't think it's refreshing; I think it's appalling. Everyone knows that the proper way to make a life-altering decision is to create a poll for an audience of very opinionated people who know next to nothing about real life. The OP's approach--which involves formulating a career goal and then doing substantive research about that goal--will lead to a life of unhappiness and poverty.

You're totally right I'm so ashamed.

*scutters off to make a poll*

[Antipodean]

I was in your shoes last year.

1) Let Columbia know about your Michigan offer. (Scan it and attach it to an email).
2) See what kind of scholarship they offer in their "first round".
3) If it's not high enough to persuade you, hold out for a better offer. Continue to let Columbia know about any other scholarship offers that come in, particularly if they're from peer schools like Chicago.
4) See if you get a better offer in the "second round".
5) Decide.

$50000 at Columbia versus $64000 at Michigan was a much, much easier choice for me.