HYSCCN Forum

[kurama20]

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

by market rate do you mean 160k? if so, then you're probably right. but there are definitely biglaw opportunities that pay ~85k/yr. (for instance some in WV and probably other secondary and tertiary markets)

At this point it's obvious that Renzo has no idea WTF he's talking about. He may very well be an idiot based off of this statement. WOW actually that is the dumbest statement I've ever seen him make--that says A LOT. YOu should be very wary of listening to him after making a comment like that.

There are A LOT of firms that pay market rate that are not on the nlj250. Pretty much any firm in the southern markets (Dallas, Austin, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, and the other Florida markets). Firms in the Pacific Northwest, litigation focused elite Cali firms like Munger, Irell, Altschuler, and Keker. Firms like Barlitt Beck in Chicago,Texas firms like Susman Godfrey, Beck Redden, and Gibbs & Bruns. Market paying firms in areas like Arizona would often not be on the nlj250 as well. Don't forget DC firms like Robbins Russell, Kellog Huber, Zuckerman etc.

Wow I can't believe just how little this guy knows for him to be making absolute claims like this. It's scary actually. I know that he is only focused on NYC biglaw (which is a huge reason why inflates NYU's strength) but wow, he actually doesn't know WTF he's talking about.

[rayiner]

There is so much fail in this thread.

[kurama20]

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

by market rate do you mean 160k? if so, then you're probably right. but there are definitely biglaw opportunities that pay ~85k/yr. (for instance some in WV and probably other secondary and tertiary markets)

Tertiary markets, WV, and $85k all fall outside the traditional notions of "biglaw"

So basically you are now just making shit up based on your own personal opinion. It's pretty scary the advice you give out considering how wrong you are. I do understand you a lot better now, you basically only know about NYC and consider that the only "real market'. That explains a lot of your stupid comments.

[Renzo]

There are A LOT of firms that pay market rate that are not on the nlj250. Pretty much any firm in the southern markets (Dallas, Austin, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, and the other Florida markets). Firms in the Pacific Northwest, litigation focused elite Cali firms like Munger, Irell, Altschuler, and Keker. Firms like Barlitt Beck in Chicago,Texas firms like Susman Godfrey, Beck Redden, and Gibbs & Bruns. Market paying firms in areas like Arizona would often not be on the nlj250 as well. Don't forget DC firms like Robbins Russell, Kellog Huber, Zuckerman etc.

Munger is #246, Irell is #190.

Altschuler has less than 30 attorneys (sort of missing the "big" in biglaw), and Keker has about 40, so neither will likely really be an employment option for anyone on this board. I acknowledged that there are some IP and lit boutiques that pay associates very well, and Susman and Kellog Huber are good examples. But good luck getting these jobs.

Strasburger & Price, Thompson & Knight, and Haynes & Boone are some of the Dallas-based firms in the NLJ 250, then there are a bunch of branch offices of true "biglaw" firms. By my rough count, 65 out of 250 of the NLJ 250 firms are Southern/Texan firms, so saying "pretty much any firm" from the south isn't on the list is a lie. In fact, there are only 41 firms in the NLJ250 that are headquartered in NY/NJ area (although the majority do have NY branches), so saying the list is "biased" towards NYC is kind of silly.

Lastly, most of the firms on the bottom third of the NLJ250 list don't pay "biglaw" market wages, they are anywhere from $145k to $90k for first-years. SInce these firms are by definition bigger than firms not on the list, it follows that there are more non-market paying jobs inside the NLJ250 than there are market paying jobs outside it.

You are good at calling names, but bad at knowing what you are talking about.

Edit: I feel like I am yelling at the whole thread just because Kurama is a clown. For the rest of the thread, I would have phrased it like this: if we are going to talk about "biglaw" firms, doesn't it make sense that we, collectively, mean firms that are "big," as opposed to "mid-law" firms that are "mid-sized," and boutiques which are small but very profitable?

[Nom Sawyer]

Tagged.

[Renzo]

Tagged.

Tag this one too. I'm still waiting for an answer there.

[heyguys]

To those who say 'why are we following US News for discussions about hiring?': beyond the obvious reasons, also consider that the subcategories within the US News are manufactured by us--they did not set out some 'top three,' 'top six,' 'top 14' format--we did because we took the rankings and made them fit with what we see as guiding the market.

[kurama20]

There are A LOT of firms that pay market rate that are not on the nlj250. Pretty much any firm in the southern markets (Dallas, Austin, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, and the other Florida markets). Firms in the Pacific Northwest, litigation focused elite Cali firms like Munger, Irell, Altschuler, and Keker. Firms like Barlitt Beck in Chicago,Texas firms like Susman Godfrey, Beck Redden, and Gibbs & Bruns. Market paying firms in areas like Arizona would often not be on the nlj250 as well. Don't forget DC firms like Robbins Russell, Kellog Huber, Zuckerman etc.

Munger is #246, Irell is #190.

Altschuler has less than 30 attorneys (sort of missing the "big" in biglaw), and Keker has about 40, so neither will likely really be an employment option for anyone on this board. I acknowledged that there are some IP and lit boutiques that pay associates very well, and Susman and Kellog Huber are good examples. But good luck getting these jobs.

Strasburger & Price, Thompson & Knight, and Haynes & Boone are some of the Dallas-based firms in the NLJ 250, then there are a bunch of branch offices of true "biglaw" firms. By my rough count, 65 out of 250 of the NLJ 250 firms are Southern/Texan firms, so saying "pretty much any firm" from the south isn't on the list is a lie. In fact, there are only 41 firms in the NLJ250 that are headquartered in NY/NJ area (although the majority do have NY branches), so saying the list is "biased" towards NYC is kind of silly.

Lastly, most of the firms on the bottom third of the NLJ250 list don't pay "biglaw" market wages, they are anywhere from $145k to $90k for first-years. SInce these firms are by definition bigger than firms not on the list, it follows that there are more non-market paying jobs inside the NLJ250 than there are market paying jobs outside it.

You are good at calling names, but bad at knowing what you are talking about.

Edit: I feel like I am yelling at the whole thread just because Kurama is a clown. For the rest of the thread, I would have phrased it like this: if we are going to talk about "biglaw" firms, doesn't it make sense that we, collectively, mean firms that are "big," as opposed to "mid-law" firms that are "mid-sized," and boutiques which are small but very profitable?

I wonder who started with the name calling dumbass. Why don't you go back and check that out. By your original post's definition you are the one who doesn't know what they are talking about how about I highlight this for you.

Kurama is an assclown who knows not of what he speaks. There are not substantially more than 250 firms paying market rates, so Biglaw is not all of the NLJ250, but pretty much all of Biglaw is in the NLJ250. I'd say that's an absolute, but someone would find one tiny IP boutique to prove me wrong.

You clearly didn't know what the fuck you were talking about with that one, as my next post showed. What's more to cover yourself you tried to twist the definition of big law to fit your claims (Oh well big law is only firms that pay 160K uh anything less than that doesn't count, or uh any firm with less than 200 lawyers or uh whatever I come up with to cover my ass). This is evidenced in your garbage post about "145K and secondary markets aren't big law" HTMFH. And for the record what's so sad is that your whole "problem" with me stems from me telling someone that NYU wouldn't make a big diffrence in their job prospects over going to Chicago. You should calm down with the aggressive attacks too, I mean I know it's an online message board and it gives you your only chance in live of having the balls to attack someone, but you're making it rather obvious that that's the case.


Oh and by the way, for most people they are talking about being payed the market six figure plus salary when they say they want biglaw. Who the hell is saying that based off of the size of the firm? Obivously a lot of the firms are big, but do you really think (if you have any experince with that verb) that people are basing it on the size of the firm and not the pay? "Oh yeah I want biglaw at a 1000 person firm where they pay 60K, the hell with an elite lit firm that pays 160K base + a huge bonus because, well it has less than 200 attorneys! Why would I want to work there!" Hell I guess Kellog Huber is just a waste huh?

From here on out I'll have to use this as a warning sign for any thread I see you in Renzo. You might want to try it for an avatar too!

[rayiner]

I'm interviewing in Feb with a NC firm (50-100 attorneys) that is not NLJ250 but pays $130k in Raleigh. I'm not sure whether that constitutes "big law" or not, but they pay $1700/wk to 1L summers so I don't really give a shit.

[najumobi]

I'm interviewing in Feb with a NC firm (50-100 attorneys) that is not NLJ250 but pays $130k in Raleigh. I'm not sure whether that constitutes "big law" or not, but they pay $1700/wk to 1L summers so I don't really give a shit.

i love this

[Flanker1067]

This thread is hilarious. However, I think Renzo wins. I don't know anything about this NYU vs. Chicago fight they had, but Kurama cited a couple firms, two of which are in the 250 and two of which have 40 attorneys or less. Then he tried to argue that because they pay market rates they are "biglaw", but how many people can they possibly hire? Doesn't sound realistic to me.

[Renzo]

Dear Kurama,

You are the only poster on this board that I gets me irritated enough to make such posts, and my problem with you has nothing to do with NYU. My problem with you is your consistent need to post bogus opinions based entirely on hearsay and your personal whims as if they were incontrovertible fact, and then run away and/or post animated gif's when you are called out on it.

And while your animated gif's continue to be clever, they don't make your point any stronger. "Biglaw" is a slang term, so there won't be any definitive proof of your wrongness forthcoming, and even if there were (like when I pointed out that 2 of your non-NLJ250 firms were actually NLJ250 firms), you'd ignore it. But spend some time browsing Above The Law, JDUnderground, and teh interwebz in general, and see if you don't notice a trend in how the phrase is used. I'll give you a head start:
Here's a NYT article using "Big law" and "big firm" interchangeably. Here's an ATL post titled "death of Biglaw," which talks about large firms that pay lock-step compensation.

Your definition of "biglaw" fails. In-house spots and some federal jobs pay over $100k (not to first-years in gov't case, but inside of three years usually). These jobs are not what people mean when they talk about they say "biglaw." Besides, why is the "big" in there if it has nothing to do with how "big" the firm is?

Finally, I will continue to chase you around the internet until you stop posting as fact things that only exist in your head, begin to base your opinions on external information, and stop expressing them as if they were handed down by god.

[legends159]

this might just get epic.

[Rand M.]

this might just get epic.

I'm waiting for the pace of the back and forth to pick up. Jab for jab.

[RVP11]

There are A LOT of firms that pay market rate that are not on the nlj250. Pretty much any firm in the southern markets (Dallas, Austin, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, and the other Florida markets). Firms in the Pacific Northwest, litigation focused elite Cali firms like Munger, Irell, Altschuler, and Keker. Firms like Barlitt Beck in Chicago,Texas firms like Susman Godfrey, Beck Redden, and Gibbs & Bruns. Market paying firms in areas like Arizona would often not be on the nlj250 as well. Don't forget DC firms like Robbins Russell, Kellog Huber, Zuckerman etc.

Munger is #246, Irell is #190.

Altschuler has less than 30 attorneys (sort of missing the "big" in biglaw), and Keker has about 40, so neither will likely really be an employment option for anyone on this board. I acknowledged that there are some IP and lit boutiques that pay associates very well, and Susman and Kellog Huber are good examples. But good luck getting these jobs.

Strasburger & Price, Thompson & Knight, and Haynes & Boone are some of the Dallas-based firms in the NLJ 250, then there are a bunch of branch offices of true "biglaw" firms. By my rough count, 65 out of 250 of the NLJ 250 firms are Southern/Texan firms, so saying "pretty much any firm" from the south isn't on the list is a lie. In fact, there are only 41 firms in the NLJ250 that are headquartered in NY/NJ area (although the majority do have NY branches), so saying the list is "biased" towards NYC is kind of silly.

Lastly, most of the firms on the bottom third of the NLJ250 list don't pay "biglaw" market wages, they are anywhere from $145k to $90k for first-years. SInce these firms are by definition bigger than firms not on the list, it follows that there are more non-market paying jobs inside the NLJ250 than there are market paying jobs outside it.

You are good at calling names, but bad at knowing what you are talking about.

Edit: I feel like I am yelling at the whole thread just because Kurama is a clown. For the rest of the thread, I would have phrased it like this: if we are going to talk about "biglaw" firms, doesn't it make sense that we, collectively, mean firms that are "big," as opposed to "mid-law" firms that are "mid-sized," and boutiques which are small but very profitable?

I'd just like to add that Kurama is, indeed, a clown.

[legends159]

Patience my friend, good comebacks take time and precision. Can't just throw out empty phrases. This isn't 3rd grade, it has to be well thought out and really hit the other person where it hurts, usually by exposing some flaw about the person that he doesn't know about himself but upon further consideration is true.

Harder over the internet since you can't see your opponent but really builds the RC skills.

[agentzer0]

I vote Renzo, if only because of phrases like this:

"At this point it's obvious that Renzo has no idea WTF he's talking about. He may very well be an idiot based off of this statement. WOW actually that is the dumbest statement I've ever seen him make--that says A LOT. YOu should be very wary of listening to him after making a comment like that."

I don't care if you're going to say something once (even if its unsupported) but rephrasing it 3 more times without offering ANY additional information... It's like struggling to come up with a math proof and realizing that after 5 lines, all you've done is return to the original assumption...

[agentzer0]

Although really, I just want to see this keep going.

[ravens20]

Although really, I just want to see this keep going.

I got a chuckle out of your name...poor ol' Gilbert Arenas pulled one prank too many.

[agentzer0]

Although really, I just want to see this keep going.

I got a chuckle out of your name...poor ol' Gilbert Arenas pulled one prank too many.

Killbert Arenas our first real Shooting guard.

[kurama20]

You will find that many of these firms pay six + figures and that many of them are not on the nlj 250. It basically comes down to what Raiyner said in this post.

I'm interviewing in Feb with a NC firm (50-100 attorneys) that is not NLJ250 but pays $130k in Raleigh. I'm not sure whether that constitutes "big law" or not, but they pay $1700/wk to 1L summers so I don't really give a shit.

I'd just like to add that JUSUVA Is indeed a bitch.
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=TX
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=GA
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=CA
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=FL
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=AZ
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=WA
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=PA
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=WI
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=OH
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=CO
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=MN
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=MI
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=TN
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=IN

As you can see many of these firms pay six figures and are not on the nlj 250, but are irrelevant based on your "definition".
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=NC

Dear Kurama,

You are the only poster on this board that I gets me irritated enough to make such posts, and my problem with you has nothing to do with NYU. My problem with you is your consistent need to post bogus opinions based entirely on hearsay and your personal whims as if they were incontrovertible fact, and then run away and/or post animated gif's when you are called out on it.

And while your animated gif's continue to be clever, they don't make your point any stronger. "Biglaw" is a slang term, so there won't be any definitive proof of your wrongness forthcoming, and even if there were (like when I pointed out that 2 of your non-NLJ250 firms were actually NLJ250 firms), you'd ignore it. But spend some time browsing Above The Law, JDUnderground, and teh interwebz in general, and see if you don't notice a trend in how the phrase is used. I'll give you a head start:
Here's a NYT article using "Big law" and "big firm" interchangeably. Here's an ATL post titled "death of Biglaw," which talks about large firms that pay lock-step compensation.

Your definition of "biglaw" fails. In-house spots and some federal jobs pay over $100k (not to first-years in gov't case, but inside of three years usually). These jobs are not what people mean when they talk about they say "biglaw." Besides, why is the "big" in there if it has nothing to do with how "big" the firm is?

Finally, I will continue to chase you around the internet until you stop posting as fact things that only exist in your head, begin to base your opinions on external information, and stop expressing them as if they were handed down by god.

Dear Bitch/Renzo,

You clearly didn't know what you were talking about when you said that the nlj250 contained every big law firm in the country. to make matters wose you tried to change your claims to say that "Oh well actually biglaw is only firms that pay 160K and have more than 200 attorneys" to cover yourself. You heavily overestimate what you know--which apparently outside of NYC data is next to nothing. You have failed to prove what I said about there being a substantial amount of firms that exist outside of the nlj250 that pay six figure salaries as incorrect, you then proceeded with (very poorly thought out--not surprising) ad hominemns to back up your point. HTMFH

The thing about Keker not being an employment option for anyone because of it's size is really the dumbest thing I've heard you say. Especially since they do OCI at multiple top schools....just because you can't get something doesn't mean other people can't. I think you are projecting your (many) failures onto others.

P.S I'm not sure why you consider an online argument "an epic fight" but then again with an avatar like that I have an idea why....

PSS I don't like you either, but it's only because you're a bitch though-- no other particular reasons.

[ravens20]

It seems that there are three ways of defining biglaw:

1) Firms paying market rate. (I would argue that a firm paying close to market rate in a market with lower cost of living still qualifies but that is another issue)
2) Firms that have a large number of attorneys working there.
3) Firms that are a combination of #1 and #2.

Earlier I posted that I thought biglaw only referred to #1 but Renzo made some compelling points. There has to be some sense of "big" in biglaw. Even if a firm pays above $160,000, if it only has 15 attorneys for it, then it can't be called "biglaw" (at least not what is commonly referred to as "biglaw"). Small boutiques and specialized firms might be more desirable and even more prestigious than some (perhaps all) biglaw firms but that doesn't make them biglaw.

But this brings up another point: if there are firms that pay as well as biglaw but are smaller and in tertiary markets which are often great places to live, then why is there so much talk about biglaw placement? As Rayiner pointed out, who the hell cares if its called biglaw if you're still getting paid well (especially in a state as warm and pleasant as North Carolina). The answer, at least in my opinion, is twofold. First, such firms are not that common. Second, the job opportunities at such firms are harder to come by due to their size and (as Kurama himself pointed out) increased selectivity. So there seems to be a use to examining placement into large firms in primary and secondary markets and for the sake of convenience people classify such firms as biglaw (not that these jobs are that much easier to land). That is not a slight against smaller firms in tertiary markets - as I said, they might well be better than biglaw jobs if they pay similar salaries - but they are not biglaw in any meaningful sense just because they pay the same rates.

[ravens20]

Although really, I just want to see this keep going.

I got a chuckle out of your name...poor ol' Gilbert Arenas pulled one prank too many.

Killbert Arenas our first real Shooting guard.

Hahaha, too funny. The thing is that I'm not at all surprised that Gilbert thought it would be a funny prank to scare his teammate with an unloaded gun...he's by far the most eccentric athlete I've seen in my life.

[bahama]

I'm interviewing in Feb with a NC firm (50-100 attorneys) that is not NLJ250 but pays $130k in Raleigh. I'm not sure whether that constitutes "big law" or not, but they pay $1700/wk to 1L summers so I don't really give a shit.

I think this is a classic "midlaw" firm. Secondary/Tertiary market, medium/small size, good salary for the location but not $160k.

Good luck with the interview!

Note: some people may argue that secondary/tertiary location isn't a requirement for midlaw. However, from what I can tell most of the med size firms (incl the lower NLJ 250) that pay "less than $160/145k but more than govt/PI/ambulance chaser" are located in these smaller markets.

Now back to watching the insults continue...

[The Brainalist]

On autoadmit there is also someone who claims to be a harvard 3L who is out of luck. I indirectly know of one other who is jobless there as a 2L. I do think the Harvard/CCN gap is over exaggerated. On the other hand, I think smaller schools that are not as reliant on the NY market maybe weren't hurt as much. I'm willing to bet stanford students are better off than Harvard students, and Chicago students fared better than the two new york peer schools for that reason. Also, I just get that sense from posts here and auto admit. On autoadmit, there are a couple threads full of jobless 2Ls and 3Ls, but they are all Columbia and NYU.

These boards are such a poor source of information, though. Everyone here is making a lot of totally blind assumptions, which simply get repeated over and over until it seems like common knowledge. I am waiting for the stats to come out later this year before any decisions get made.

For the record, Kurama may tick you off, but you lose in my book when you resort to name-calling and foul language. If you don't have enough faith that your arguments stand on their own, then I don't have any faith in your reasoning either.