Whittier Shutting Down Forum

[grades??]

Man the stupidity in this thread is pretty astounding. Is it impossible to imagine that despite not living in a hut on $1 a day, despite knowing how to use the internet, a lot of people because of their circumstances won't be able to put nearly as much research into attending law school? People who are the first in their family to go to college and don't necessarily have the support behind them, people who have to juggle school/work/personal shit, people who aren't used - expecting - to challenge the system and higher ed to maximize their return, etc. Does that make them stupid, or does that make them uninformed? And are we really going to blame them, and laugh at them, when they graduate with no job or when their school closes?

More generally, scams affect all types of people, rich or poor, dumb and smart. Madoff took in a lot of supposedly smart, rich, successful people in his pyramid scheme. Are they all idiots? There were plenty of signs if you knew where to look. I just hope for your sake, cougs1112, that you never get caught in a scam.

You act as if it would take more than a 10 minute Google search to realize that Whittier isn't worth a dime. You can literally type in "is Whittier law school good", or "is Whittier law worth it" or, "Whittier law employment" and you will learn within 10 minutes that you should not attend Whittier.

This is not esoteric knowledge. 10 minutes of googling is not too much to ask of someone before they make a 3 year, quarter million dollar commitment.

exactly. Just because someone doesn't have the same support system doesn't mean they can't just google Whittier law employment. I said this earlier: if you can register for the LSAC, you CERTAINLY can do 10 minutes of research about employment outcomes. In fact, I would say its materially more intensive registering for the lsac, sending transcripts, etc than doing some minimum research about schools. Poverty/lack of information/etc does not absolve someone from their idiotic decisions because the information is so easily available.

[cougs1112]

I just can't feel sorry for someone who borrowed 200k without doing any research regarding rankings/bar passage rates/employment outcomes. A significant percentage of our generation is just fucking stupid.

[cougs1112]

Why do so many Americans assume that most of the world lives in huts and lives on less than a dollar a day?

Most people don't but most people in the world also cannot afford the luxuries that dip shit american millennials that think it's a good idea to take out 250k in loans to go to a shitty law school take for granted

[Mr. Blackacre]

I could give you 20 different reasons why, even if someone did make it to LST, they might still go ahead with the school.

For starters, these reports have only existed in their current form for the past 5 years of so. Until then, good luck getting accurate information.

Then you just have to look at the reports as they stand now. The classes of 2017-19 - current students - relied on 2014-15 ABA disclosures. You have to know what you're looking for when you read those disclosures. Sure, LST reports that 27% of students are unemployed. But a bunch of them aren't seeking! Surely that shouldn't count. Ok, LST says that 48% are underemployed. But that's just because they don't understand that jd advantage jobs are real. Etc, etc. Rationalization is super easy when you don't have the knowledge/incentive to question things. Especially when on the other side you'll have family/friends/law school officials/maybe law school alumnis telling you how great an opportunity this is, etc etc.

Honestly, I'm not even sure you actually get to LST on your own. I didn't use Whittier since now when you look it up on google it comes up with a bunch of articles about the closure. So I used Laverne and typed "is Laverne law bad" and "Laverne law employment." LST isn't on the first page. There's a bunch of blogs, sure, but honestly with how badly people like Nando write, it's not surprising that prospective students would discard the advice. If you structure your blog as outwardly extremely biased and angry against law schools, people will assume a lot of your criticism comes from that bias. As an aside, I'll note that most people at GULC have no clue what TLS is, let alone LST. My friends who know I use this forum think I'm a huge nerd. When they learned I made a big pre-OCI spreadsheet based in part on information from this forum, they called me an even bigger nerd.

Ultimately, I'll just bring you back to Madoff and scams in general. You can be very smart and yet be taken by one of those. Madoff had god knows how many people reporting him to the SEC, analysts and journalists coming out with public statements that his returns made no sense, etc., and it took decades to finally bust him. Plenty of "sophisticated" (whatever that means) investors lost millions.

[TakeItToTrial]

Man the stupidity in this thread is pretty astounding. Is it impossible to imagine that despite not living in a hut on $1 a day, despite knowing how to use the internet, a lot of people because of their circumstances won't be able to put nearly as much research into attending law school? People who are the first in their family to go to college and don't necessarily have the support behind them, people who have to juggle school/work/personal shit, people who aren't used - expecting - to challenge the system and higher ed to maximize their return, etc. Does that make them stupid, or does that make them uninformed? And are we really going to blame them, and laugh at them, when they graduate with no job or when their school closes?

More generally, scams affect all types of people, rich or poor, dumb and smart. Madoff took in a lot of supposedly smart, rich, successful people in his pyramid scheme. Are they all idiots? There were plenty of signs if you knew where to look. I just hope for your sake, cougs1112, that you never get caught in a scam.

Yeah, let's absolve everyone of all personal responsibility.

You must be doing great in law school. Cougs says if you went to Whittier, you deserve to be in this situation because you were too stupid to look up the law school scam. I say calling everyone who went there stupid doesn't make sense. And your reply is that I am somehow absolving every student of personal responsibility. It's the classic "if you disagree that X is always true, then you must be saying that X is always false."

Whatever, carry on self-congratulating I guess. Thank god you were so smart not to fall in the same trap as these lowly idiots.

I was being hyperbolic. According to you, the people posting in this thread are the stupid ones, not those who took on six-figure debt to attend Whittier. That's comical.

As a college-educated adult, no matter your background, it is stupid to be uninformed when making a life-altering decision.

Oh but I forgot. It's not their fault. They were dealing with too much school/work/personal shit to do a modicum of research.

[toliveNdieNLA]

"What about the 4Ls!"

#IamSoDead #Hilarious

That video is a piece of work

[mojomeltdown]

Wow, 10 pages worth of commentary inspired by Whittier's law school...never thought I'd see that on tls...

[tinyvessels]

Leave it to TLS to latch on to one specific talking point made by a few posters on this thread in regard to a bigger picture issues being discussed. Stop harping on the 'it only takes ten minutes to google something.' Yes, we understand. What people have been trying to say though, is that there are various factors that go into someone's decision to go to a law school like this and with so much debt. For someone from a more socioeconomically disadvantaged background it's a lot more complicated than looking up employment statistics and making your decision completely on that. For a lot of people it's basically between either continuing to do basic, minimum wage, or almost minimum wage work, with their liberal arts degrees or taking a gamble on a knowingly shitty school to potentially do something traditionally seen as 'respectable' within most communities, being an attorney.

IDK, fwiw, I do think going to tier three or tier four law schools makes sense if you go for free or pretty close to free and have very modest local job/salary goals. The issue is that a lot of these students will go to these schools with completely unrealistic expectations about jobs and salaries when they had the information accessible to them.

Based on that video and the cringeworthy questions these students were asking, I really think they thought all they needed was a law degree and they would be good to go in terms of making a six figure salary. They needed a big reality check, and its unfortunate this is how it was done.

I feel for these students, but schools like this closing will end up being a good thing in the long run for the legal market, but lbr, it will push out a lot more working class people from this profession.

[haus]

It is worth while considering how society views education in general. Higher education is seen as a ticket to a better life. Sure getting an undergrad degree from Harvard is better than one from the Rocko Club School for Women, yet people frequently face or hear of job requirements for a college degree, and for some jobs 'Rocko' may just get you there. If education can be a pathway to opportunity, it is easy to think that even more education will provide even more opportunity.

There are numerous reasons why people should think of employment in law being different from other fields, but this is not necessarily obvious from the outside looking in.

[tinyvessels]

According to Paul Campos, who has spoken about this issue for awhile, law schools especially vulnerable include Valparaiso University (63.3 percent bar pass rate in 2015), Thomas M. Cooley School of Law (51.9 percent), Thomas Jefferson School of Law (48.2 percent), University of La Verne (53.7 percent), and Appalachian School of Law (58.1 percent).

He also listed Florida Coastal School of Law (61.1 percent), Charlotte School of Law (46.3 percent), and Arizona Summit Law School (41.6 percent), all of which are operated by InfiLaw System, a for-profit entity owned by Sterling Partners.

La Verne, Western State, Thomas Jefferson, and Golden Gate should be the next ones to go. And those are only in California. Also, UCI opening up a law school a few years ago when the market was a fucking bloodbath was so incredibly irresponsible, I'm shocked they don't get more shit for it. They impacted the already oversaturated law school market in the state. Whittier Law is located in the OC, along with La Verne, UCI opening a law school directly helped screw other schools in the area over, most especially Whittier.

[Pragmatic Gun]

Leave it to TLS to latch on to one specific talking point made by a few posters on this thread in regard to a bigger picture issues being discussed. Stop harping on the 'it only takes ten minutes to google something.' Yes, we understand. What people have been trying to say though, is that there are various factors that go into someone's decision to go to a law school like this and with so much debt. For someone from a more socioeconomically disadvantaged background it's a lot more complicated than looking up employment statistics and making your decision completely on that. For a lot of people it's basically between either continuing to do basic, minimum wage, or almost minimum wage work, with their liberal arts degrees or taking a gamble on a knowingly shitty school to potentially do something traditionally seen as 'respectable' within most communities, being an attorney.

IDK, fwiw, I do think going to tier three or tier four law schools makes sense if you go for free or pretty close to free and have very modest local job/salary goals. The issue is that a lot of these students will go to these schools with completely unrealistic expectations about jobs and salaries when they had the information accessible to them.

Based on that video and the cringeworthy questions these students were asking, I really think they thought all they needed was a law degree and they would be good to go in terms of making a six figure salary. They needed a big reality check, and its unfortunate this is how it was done.

I feel for these students, but schools like this closing will end up being a good thing in the long run for the legal market, but lbr, it will push out a lot more working class people from this profession.

Yeah, we're focusing too much on the actors within the system when we should we analyzing the entire system, its culture, incentives, etc.

[Mr. Blackacre]

I have to say, it's also pretty rich that a bunch of the people ITT criticizing Whittier students are either themselves attending trap schools, or seriously considered doing so. Surely you guys can understand that if you made the decision to go to a school that on its face has not so great employment outcomes, other people may have done so as well. And for reasons people have already mentioned - variety of factors, including the fact that it can be a good idea to go to a lower ranked school if you're going for free (or almost free) and are only interested in lower-level state / firm positions.

Ultimately, all we're saying is that your socio-economic status has an important role to play in your decision-making process. That doesn't mean some people who decided to go to Whittier aren't idiots - there probably are some who received ample warning and who could have listened. But there are also tons who didn't. It's fine to celebrate the fact that an objectively terrible school is closing, but you don't have to bash all the students who are getting screwed in the process.

[tinyvessels]

It is worth while considering how society views education in general. Higher education is seen as a ticket to a better life. Sure getting an undergrad degree from Harvard is better than one from the Rocko Club School for Women, yet people frequently face or hear of job requirements for a college degree, and for some jobs 'Rocko' may just get you there. If education can be a pathway to opportunity, it is easy to think that even more education will provide even more opportunity.

There are numerous reasons why people should think of employment in law being different from other fields, but this is not necessarily obvious from the outside looking in.

Exactly. I don't understand why more people don't get this. Also, lbr, unless you have a 'useful' degree i.e. engineering, finance, etc. Coupled with the fact that more and more people, now, more than ever, are getting bachelors degrees, it really is the new high school diploma.

Hell, my friends that completed degrees in Bio, Chem, and Physics can at best, get low paying lab work, so all are applying or have applied to graduate programs/medical schools to get a secondary degree that gives them more prospects.

[Npret]

I have to say, it's also pretty rich that a bunch of the people ITT criticizing Whittier students are either themselves attending trap schools, or seriously considered doing so. Surely you guys can understand that if you made the decision to go to a school that on its face has not so great employment outcomes, other people may have done so as well. And for reasons people have already mentioned - variety of factors, including the fact that it can be a good idea to go to a lower ranked school if you're going for free (or almost free) and are only interested in lower-level state / firm positions.

Ultimately, all we're saying is that your socio-economic status has an important role to play in your decision-making process. That doesn't mean some people who decided to go to Whittier aren't idiots - there probably are some who received ample warning and who could have listened. But there are also tons who didn't. It's fine to celebrate the fact that an objectively terrible school is closing, but you don't have to bash all the students who are getting screwed in the process.

I agree. Everyone thinks it won't be them and they are making a smart move going deeply in debt for a law degree. There are people on this forum who have turned down tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in scholarships from another T13 or T6 school just to take on massive debt at Harvard. There is less data on long term career outcomes from top schools than there is employment data from Whittier. (I've stopped trying to tell people that lots of lawyers leave law in the first ten years because I don't have proof.)

The thought process and the belief in the value of the law degree is the same from almost all students at all law schools or else why would anyone go? This isn't the old days when people would just go to law school because they didn't know what else to do with their liberal arts degree.

[PeanutsNJam]

It is worth while considering how society views education in general. Higher education is seen as a ticket to a better life. Sure getting an undergrad degree from Harvard is better than one from the Rocko Club School for Women, yet people frequently face or hear of job requirements for a college degree, and for some jobs 'Rocko' may just get you there. If education can be a pathway to opportunity, it is easy to think that even more education will provide even more opportunity.

There are numerous reasons why people should think of employment in law being different from other fields, but this is not necessarily obvious from the outside looking in.

Exactly. I don't understand why more people don't get this. Also, lbr, unless you have a 'useful' degree i.e. engineering, finance, etc. Coupled with the fact that more and more people, now, more than ever, are getting bachelors degrees, it really is the new high school diploma.

Hell, my friends that completed degrees in Bio, Chem, and Physics can at best, get low paying lab work, so all are applying or have applied to graduate programs/medical schools to get a secondary degree that gives them more prospects.

Chem and physics majors by no means are limited to low paying lab work. Bio, yes, because what else can bio majors do? (bio major here). Maybe if your grades are not good, you may be limited. On reflection, I have some bio major friends who ended up in IT health consulting, which is a stepping stone to more stuff later on (my school sent a ton of people to Epic), so bio majors aren't limited to low paying lab work.

Considering how you don't actually pay money to get a PhD, (and are instead paid to do research), I wouldn't call a PhD "more schooling." If you're paying to get a PhD, you're getting Whittier-scammed. A PhD is required for work that requires specialized knowledge, yes, but those kinds of jobs were never really available to bachelor holders.

[Nebby]

It is worth while considering how society views education in general. Higher education is seen as a ticket to a better life. Sure getting an undergrad degree from Harvard is better than one from the Rocko Club School for Women, yet people frequently face or hear of job requirements for a college degree, and for some jobs 'Rocko' may just get you there. If education can be a pathway to opportunity, it is easy to think that even more education will provide even more opportunity.

There are numerous reasons why people should think of employment in law being different from other fields, but this is not necessarily obvious from the outside looking in.

This is probably the best post in this thread

[Nebby]

I just can't feel sorry for someone who borrowed 200k without doing any research regarding rankings/bar passage rates/employment outcomes. A significant percentage of our generation is just fucking stupid.

You seem like a well-adjusted person with a healthy self-esteem

[tinyvessels]

It is worth while considering how society views education in general. Higher education is seen as a ticket to a better life. Sure getting an undergrad degree from Harvard is better than one from the Rocko Club School for Women, yet people frequently face or hear of job requirements for a college degree, and for some jobs 'Rocko' may just get you there. If education can be a pathway to opportunity, it is easy to think that even more education will provide even more opportunity.

There are numerous reasons why people should think of employment in law being different from other fields, but this is not necessarily obvious from the outside looking in.

Exactly. I don't understand why more people don't get this. Also, lbr, unless you have a 'useful' degree i.e. engineering, finance, etc. Coupled with the fact that more and more people, now, more than ever, are getting bachelors degrees, it really is the new high school diploma.

Hell, my friends that completed degrees in Bio, Chem, and Physics can at best, get low paying lab work, so all are applying or have applied to graduate programs/medical schools to get a secondary degree that gives them more prospects.

Chem and physics majors by no means are limited to low paying lab work. Bio, yes, because what else can bio majors do? (bio major here). Maybe if your grades are not good, you may be limited. On reflection, I have some bio major friends who ended up in IT health consulting, which is a stepping stone to more stuff later on (my school sent a ton of people to Epic), so bio majors aren't limited to low paying lab work.

Considering how you don't actually pay money to get a PhD, (and are instead paid to do research), I wouldn't call a PhD "more schooling." If you're paying to get a PhD, you're getting Whittier-scammed. A PhD is required for work that requires specialized knowledge, yes, but those kinds of jobs were never really available to bachelor holders.

Chem and Physics majors do have more options for sure, my friends just ended up going down the PhD route because they are your typical overachievers I guess and wanted at least a Masters to their name. I didn't mean more schooling in the literal sense in regard to the science PhDs, just that some feel the need to get advanced degrees to better their prospects. Getting a PhD, which a lot of times is heavily subsidized by the school you attend is a completely different animal to law school, as you're obviously aware since you were a bio major.

[vcap180]

I still have not read a post that comes remotely close to effectively arguing how one's socioeconomic background changes the calculus - or access to information - in determining whether Whittier Law is worth a quarter million dollars... Or even more, considering being a 4L is apparently a badge of honor there.

[Nebby]

I still have not read a post that comes remotely close to effectively arguing how one's socioeconomic background changes the calculus - or access to information - in determining whether Whittier Law is worth a quarter million dollars... Or even more, considering being a 4L is apparently a badge of honor there.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the calculus changes; Whittier is objectively bad at sticker. People are arguing whether education background and SES affect whether an individual can adequately do the calculus

[uion1715]

http://www.latimes.com/local/education/ ... story.html

Antonia Reyes, a second-year student, said she picked Whittier over other schools in Florida, Arizona and San Diego because of its diverse student body, practical training and focus on race and class issues. Like many of her classmates, she hopes to use her law degree to represent underserved communities.

Would like to bet Reyes is referring to Florida Coastal, Arizona Summit and Thomas Jefferson.

[vcap180]

I still have not read a post that comes remotely close to effectively arguing how one's socioeconomic background changes the calculus - or access to information - in determining whether Whittier Law is worth a quarter million dollars... Or even more, considering being a 4L is apparently a badge of honor there.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the calculus changes; Whittier is objectively bad at sticker. People are arguing whether education background and SES affect whether an individual can adequately do the calculus

If you can graduate high school and a 4 year college, you can adequately do the calculus.

[Alpal29]

I still have not read a post that comes remotely close to effectively arguing how one's socioeconomic background changes the calculus - or access to information - in determining whether Whittier Law is worth a quarter million dollars... Or even more, considering being a 4L is apparently a badge of honor there.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the calculus changes; Whittier is objectively bad at sticker. People are arguing whether education background and SES affect whether an individual can adequately do the calculus

If you can graduate high school and a 4 year college, you can adequately do the calculus.

I feel like it's the same way people wind up in credit card debt though. If you've never had that much money in your life, you can't really grasp or understand the magnitude of the debt, and to them it's not real money anyway it's a loan. It's exactly how people wind up in mortgages they can't afford and deep into credit cards with high interest rates. Everyone tells you not to do it, but it happens all the time anyway. Because it'll affect them in the moderately distant future they don't realize how large it is and how damaging it will be.

Especially for people who have never had to do financial planning. When you're living hand to mouth you don't think about saving and resources. The number is meaningless to them. Those are exactly the kind of people the schools prey on.

Compounding the fact that everyone is encouraging them to take out the loans because they'll be able to get a job and pay it off?

Doesn't even matter if they can do the calculus. Most undergraduates wouldn't be able to understand the disparate impact, much less those with way less resources.

[vcap180]

Here's how I see it: schools like Whittier don't prey on the uninformed, they prey on the people who simply won't take "no" for an answer!

How do you think someone ends up at Whittier? Do you think it was among their top 15 choices? Or do you think they were rejected from every reasonable school they considered, or better yet, knew they weren't qualified for admission anywhere else.

Schools like Whittier are a response to the giant number of prospective JD candidates who can't be told that this profession might not be for them.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I feel pretty sure there are a lot of people who live near Whittier and want to go there because you go to whatever school is closest and they heard from someone local that it was a good school. I don't think it's because they "wont take no for an answer!" at all.