Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[starsofthelidd]

OP for what it's worth I am also really debt averse, and like I said am going to Cornell on the same scholarship you have. I am $0 in debt right now, so the prospect of taking on that much debt fucked me up for a while. After months of deliberation, research, conversations with friends and family, I'm certain I'm making the right choice for me; of course that doesn't mean it would be right for you.

As others have mentioned here, you seem pretty dead set against Cornell, so why go? The LRAP stuff sounds insane, for example. I had questions about how it worked, too (I may do PI, trying to figure that out now), so I met with the financial aid person and asked them questions about it. You're free to do the same, whether in person or by phone. But for whatever reason--and I know I'm only repeating what everyone else has already said, which I feel okay doing because you're having such a hard time hearing it--you're asking people for advice about a decision that you already seem to have made.

[WinterComing]

So far, I've gotten a lot of info about Cornell, and I thank everyone who has made an input, but I haven't gotten the same perspective on other schools so it seems like a very biased pool of information to make a decision on.

The fact that an overwhelming majority of people in this thread (more than 90 percent in the poll) are telling you to go to Cornell doesn't show that they are "biased" toward Cornell. It shows that Cornell is, objectively in a vacuum, the best option by a long shot. Putting aside the weather, the superiority of the employment outcomes at Cornell clearly justifies the increase in cost, relative to your other options.

You don't want to go to Cornell. So don't go to Cornell. But the logical gymnastics you're doing in this thread to try to justify that choice are downright ridiculous.

[cron1834]

Such terrible choosing threads lately. Aren't there some good WL decisions to make, or is this like a lull period for that?

[dabigchina]

OP: I voted for St. John's because it couldn't be more clear you just can stand being out of the city for some reason.

Is it a bad call? Yes. But you aren't in a listening mood so more power to you I guess.

[krads153]

I don't know, I'm going to go against the grain and say CUNY for free is a good choice. Not sure about the others.

I say this because my spouse (who is in PI) says that most NYC non profits know that CUNY is a PI school and that people who go there intend on doing PI. And frankly hiring for a lot of PI orgs is less about school, more about languages (Spanish/Chinese), interest and experience.

[Lavitz]

I don't know, I'm going to go against the grain and say CUNY for free is a good choice. Not sure about the others.

I say this because my spouse (who is in PI) says that most NYC non profits know that CUNY is a PI school and that people who go there intend on doing PI. And frankly hiring for a lot of PI orgs is less about school, more about languages (Spanish/Chinese), interest and experience.

Based on what I know about CUNY, I mostly agree with this, but I don't see where OP listed this as an option. But if OP is 100% committed to PI in NYC, and does sit out this cycle, then she should definitely apply to CUNY and see what happens.

[krads153]

I don't know, I'm going to go against the grain and say CUNY for free is a good choice. Not sure about the others.

I say this because my spouse (who is in PI) says that most NYC non profits know that CUNY is a PI school and that people who go there intend on doing PI. And frankly hiring for a lot of PI orgs is less about school, more about languages (Spanish/Chinese), interest and experience.

Based on what I know about CUNY, I mostly agree with this, but I don't see where OP listed this as an option. But if OP is 100% committed to PI in NYC, and does sit out this cycle, then she should definitely apply to CUNY and see what happens.

Yeah, I don't know. OP just mentioned CUNY in an earlier post on the first page but it's not listed as a polled item.

TBF, I think PI attorneys think much more highly of CUNY than St. John's, etc.

[cannonballer]

I don't know, I'm going to go against the grain and say CUNY for free is a good choice. Not sure about the others.

I say this because my spouse (who is in PI) says that most NYC non profits know that CUNY is a PI school and that people who go there intend on doing PI. And frankly hiring for a lot of PI orgs is less about school, more about languages (Spanish/Chinese), interest and experience.

Based on what I know about CUNY, I mostly agree with this, but I don't see where OP listed this as an option. But if OP is 100% committed to PI in NYC, and does sit out this cycle, then she should definitely apply to CUNY and see what happens.

Yeah, I don't know. OP just mentioned CUNY in an earlier post on the first page but it's not listed as a polled item.

TBF, I think PI attorneys think much more highly of CUNY than St. John's, etc.

I was going to suggest CUNY as well if OP is for sure committed to PI, since they clearly want to stay in NYC. CUNYs deadline actually isn't until June 15th, so they could still apply and attend in the fall!

[wons]

CUNY would be a fine option for PI, as long as OP understands it forecloses ever working in a firm (other than Jacoby & Meyers).

[pterodactyls]

(I got the one where I have to only be in the top 80% to keep it, which is fine by me. I doubt a curve can throw me to the bottom 20% of the barrel?)

You're willing to take a 20% risk of losing a scholarship, but you won't accept the relatively low risk of Cornell's LRAP? That doesn't seem rational to me.

It would be completely unprecedented for the federal government to retract the PSLF (on which Cornell's LRAP relies) for existing borrowers. It is possible, but I personally think the risk is much lower than 20%.

[arielsm23]

So have you picked Northeastern yet?

[Dcc617]

What was the decision OP? I hate how we never get resolution on these threads.

[silverdoe91]

CUNY would be a fine option for PI, as long as OP understands it forecloses ever working in a firm (other than Jacoby & Meyers).

I would like the option of working for non-PI firms, which is why I did not apply to CUNY.

[silverdoe91]

OP for what it's worth I am also really debt averse, and like I said am going to Cornell on the same scholarship you have. I am $0 in debt right now, so the prospect of taking on that much debt fucked me up for a while. After months of deliberation, research, conversations with friends and family, I'm certain I'm making the right choice for me; of course that doesn't mean it would be right for you.

As others have mentioned here, you seem pretty dead set against Cornell, so why go? The LRAP stuff sounds insane, for example. I had questions about how it worked, too (I may do PI, trying to figure that out now), so I met with the financial aid person and asked them questions about it. You're free to do the same, whether in person or by phone. But for whatever reason--and I know I'm only repeating what everyone else has already said, which I feel okay doing because you're having such a hard time hearing it--you're asking people for advice about a decision that you already seem to have made.

Haha, no I haven't made a decision yet, I'd just like to consider every side of the story before making one. Are you planning on going into BigLaw? I've worked at a BigLaw firm before and I'm not particularly fond of being stuck in that kind of environment to pay off loans or for whatever other reason.

I spoke to the PI director at Cornell several times, but even though it does sound good, there are definitely some caveats that are not 100% clear and perhaps won't be until you experience it for yourself (such as the cap at 80k a year, which sounds great at first, but do I really not plan on making more than that in 10 years of working in the same field? I would expect a pay raise, and most PI people do receive a raise even over the 80k mark. Another point of contention for me is their maternity leave rules only cover you for the first 12 weeks and then you're on your own with paying the loans. Finally, what if I choose to do public sector work but in a private firm? Just because its not a government sanctioned non-profit does not mean my salary will be greater than 80k or even 50k, but in that case Cornell's LRAP won't cover me.) I have a call scheduled with a Cornell Alum who is currently on the LRAP so hopefully that can clear up some concerns for me.

[LandMermaid]

OP for what it's worth I am also really debt averse, and like I said am going to Cornell on the same scholarship you have. I am $0 in debt right now, so the prospect of taking on that much debt fucked me up for a while. After months of deliberation, research, conversations with friends and family, I'm certain I'm making the right choice for me; of course that doesn't mean it would be right for you.

As others have mentioned here, you seem pretty dead set against Cornell, so why go? The LRAP stuff sounds insane, for example. I had questions about how it worked, too (I may do PI, trying to figure that out now), so I met with the financial aid person and asked them questions about it. You're free to do the same, whether in person or by phone. But for whatever reason--and I know I'm only repeating what everyone else has already said, which I feel okay doing because you're having such a hard time hearing it--you're asking people for advice about a decision that you already seem to have made.

Haha, no I haven't made a decision yet, I'd just like to consider every side of the story before making one. Are you planning on going into BigLaw? I've worked at a BigLaw firm before and I'm not particularly fond of being stuck in that kind of environment to pay off loans or for whatever other reason.

I spoke to the PI director at Cornell several times, but even though it does sound good, there are definitely some caveats that are not 100% clear and perhaps won't be until you experience it for yourself (such as the cap at 80k a year, which sounds great at first, but do I really not plan on making more than that in 10 years of working in the same field? I would expect a pay raise, and most PI people do receive a raise even over the 80k mark. Another point of contention for me is their maternity leave rules only cover you for the first 12 weeks and then you're on your own with paying the loans. Finally, what if I choose to do public sector work but in a private firm? Just because its not a government sanctioned non-profit does not mean my salary will be greater than 80k or even 50k, but in that case Cornell's LRAP won't cover me.) I have a call scheduled with a Cornell Alum who is currently on the LRAP so hopefully that can clear up some concerns for me.

If you are this averse to even the slightest risk/inconvenience/difficulty you should probably not attend law school.

[silverdoe91]

If you are this averse to even the slightest risk/inconvenience/difficulty you should probably not attend law school.

I am not averse to difficulty such as putting effort into my schoolwork, as evidenced by my GPA, but I am averse to working hard for a degree that will not result in the type of job I want or leave me in a worse financial situation than I was in before starting law school. A lot of people do not think of these things prior to law school, but they sure do experience it afterwards. I'm trying to avoid making that mistake by getting all the info I can get beforehand.

[Glasseyes]

If you are this averse to even the slightest risk/inconvenience/difficulty you should probably not attend law school.

I am not averse to difficulty such as putting effort into my schoolwork, as evidenced by my GPA, but I am averse to working hard for a degree that will not result in the type of job I want or leave me in a worse financial situation than I was in before starting law school. A lot of people do not think of these things prior to law school, but they sure do experience it afterwards. I'm trying to avoid making that mistake by getting all the info I can get beforehand.

At this point nothing's gonna burst your bubble, but seriously, stop thinking you have hidden knowledge compared to what everyone else is telling you. Virtually everyone considers the exact things you're saying no one considers. Sure, oblivious kids sometimes take on too much debt (e.g., anyone paying sticker anywhere). Others grossly miscalculate the risks and take full rides at schools with horrendous odds of finding a reasonable outcome. Several of these are the schools you're comparing to Cornell, which is why you've generated the most one-sided Choosing poll in TLS history. But you do you, OP.

[silverdoe91]

At this point nothing's gonna burst your bubble, but seriously, stop thinking you have hidden knowledge compared to what everyone else is telling you. Virtually everyone considers the exact things you're saying no one considers. Sure, oblivious kids sometimes take on too much debt (e.g., anyone paying sticker anywhere). Others grossly miscalculate the risks and take full rides at schools with horrendous odds of finding a reasonable outcome. Several of these are the schools you're comparing to Cornell, which is why you've generated the most one-sided Choosing poll in TLS history. But you do you, OP.

I don't have hidden knowledge, that's why I'm asking questions. Not just the general question of which law school I should go to, but specific questions about each school's job placement and internship opportunities in different fields, specific conditions of their LRAP that may or may not apply to me in the future, considering which area of law I go into or what life circumstances I experience, as well as the general atmosphere and culture of the law school and whether or not they will be able to help me take the classes/internships/clinics I want to and reach the goals I have in mind.

[cavalier1138]

At this point nothing's gonna burst your bubble, but seriously, stop thinking you have hidden knowledge compared to what everyone else is telling you. Virtually everyone considers the exact things you're saying no one considers. Sure, oblivious kids sometimes take on too much debt (e.g., anyone paying sticker anywhere). Others grossly miscalculate the risks and take full rides at schools with horrendous odds of finding a reasonable outcome. Several of these are the schools you're comparing to Cornell, which is why you've generated the most one-sided Choosing poll in TLS history. But you do you, OP.

I don't have hidden knowledge, that's why I'm asking questions. Not just the general question of which law school I should go to, but specific terms of each school's job placement and internship opportunities in different fields, specific conditions of their LRAP that may or may not apply to me in the future, considering which area of law I go into or what life circumstances I experience, as well as the general atmosphere and culture of the law school and whether or not they will be able to help me take the classes/internships/clinics I want to and reach the goals I have in mind.

Great. Then since your goals were stated as, "I'd like to go into Public Interest law or maybe Government, but I do not want to rule out other legal career options such as BigLaw," Cornell is the correct choice.

Here's the thing about the $80k cap for LRAP, by the way. Yes, other (higher-ranked) schools offer better LRAP coverage for people who earn more than that. But if your'e in a PSLF-eligible job, then $80k+ a year should be more than sufficient for covering your IBR payments on your own for the 10-year period it takes to get PSLF.

Also, unless you're talking about an absolutely stellar unicorn clinic or internship (the EJI clinic at NYU comes to mind), all the T14 schools offer pretty much the exact same classes/internships/clinics.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

After reading all 10 pages, I've never seen someone fight so hard to avoid the T14 with decent money. OP is the Anti-TLSer -- the apocalypse is upon us.

[pancakes3]

I am not averse to difficulty such as putting effort into my schoolwork, as evidenced by my GPA

I took the LSAT last June and got a 167. Previously, I took the LSAT in 2012, and got a 159. My GPA is 3.76.

So sit out, retake, and go to NYU.

[eph]

At this point nothing's gonna burst your bubble, but seriously, stop thinking you have hidden knowledge compared to what everyone else is telling you. Virtually everyone considers the exact things you're saying no one considers. Sure, oblivious kids sometimes take on too much debt (e.g., anyone paying sticker anywhere). Others grossly miscalculate the risks and take full rides at schools with horrendous odds of finding a reasonable outcome. Several of these are the schools you're comparing to Cornell, which is why you've generated the most one-sided Choosing poll in TLS history. But you do you, OP.

I don't have hidden knowledge, that's why I'm asking questions. Not just the general question of which law school I should go to, but specific terms of each school's job placement and internship opportunities in different fields, specific conditions of their LRAP that may or may not apply to me in the future, considering which area of law I go into or what life circumstances I experience, as well as the general atmosphere and culture of the law school and whether or not they will be able to help me take the classes/internships/clinics I want to and reach the goals I have in mind.

No one can provide the answers you are looking for. Opportunities are generally student specific. There are partners at many top firms with degrees from schools that are not t-14. There are some from HYS that the numbers say are unemployed 9 months after graduation. It is more a question of odds. As everyone has told you the odds of "success", what ever that means, are greater out of Cornell. This is true year after year. It is a fact. Your dreams can come true out of St John's and you can land on your face out of Cornell. You simply have a much greater chance of accomplishing your objectives at Cornell. Fact. You strike me as a person who might think that the best way to stop a cell phone from shattering when you drop it is to alter gravity. Good idea...hard to do. Cornell is a better school than St John's even given the money. It just is.

[silverdoe91]

No one can provide the answers you are looking for. Opportunities are generally student specific. There are partners at many top firms with degrees from schools that are not t-14. There are some from HYS that the numbers say are unemployed 9 months after graduation. It is more a question of odds. As everyone has told you the odds of "success", what ever that means, are greater out of Cornell. This is true year after year. It is a fact. Your dreams can come true out of St John's and you can land on your face out of Cornell. You simply have a much greater chance of accomplishing your objectives at Cornell. Fact. You strike me as a person who might think that the best way to stop a cell phone from shattering when you drop it is to alter gravity. Good idea...hard to do. Cornell is a better school than St John's even given the money. It just is.

Right now I'm leaning more towards Fordham. The cost will be 1/3 of Cornell, it'll give me access to internships while in school because it's in the city, and it has a 30% placement rate into BigLaw, which are not bad odds for someone who isn't aiming for BigLaw but wants to keep their options open. I'm just a little bit worried about their overall reputation because they're not in the T20 and their unemployment rate is 14% (which is 2% higher than SJU somehow) and their school funded positions are 4%. So I'm wondering, if their employment rates are slightly lower than SJU, maybe I'm better off taking the full ride at SJU. Then again, Fordham's nearly twice as good at placing BigLaw than SJU so that might make up for it. Also, Fordham's LRAP is not nearly as good as Cornell's but it will be enough to cover the minimal debt I'll accrue, plus with a BigLaw job I can knock down the debt in one year, and Fordham's LRAP provides for 6 months of maternity leave, whereas Cornell's only covers 3 months.

Btw, I've never shattered a phone before, and rarely ever drop it.

[silverdoe91]

Great. Then since your goals were stated as, "I'd like to go into Public Interest law or maybe Government, but I do not want to rule out other legal career options such as BigLaw," Cornell is the correct choice.

Here's the thing about the $80k cap for LRAP, by the way. Yes, other (higher-ranked) schools offer better LRAP coverage for people who earn more than that. But if your'e in a PSLF-eligible job, then $80k+ a year should be more than sufficient for covering your IBR payments on your own for the 10-year period it takes to get PSLF.

Also, unless you're talking about an absolutely stellar unicorn clinic or internship (the EJI clinic at NYU comes to mind), all the T14 schools offer pretty much the exact same classes/internships/clinics.

Public Interest attorneys I've spoken to so far advised me to do as many internships as possible while in school, possibly every semester even, and I just don't think I can manage to do that in Ithaca considering its location. I doubt there are as many law offices there where I can intern and do the various types of public sector law I want to do as compared to New York City. I'll definitely have to do more research on Ithaca's neighboring law offices though to see what if any opportunities they do offer in this respect.

[silverdoe91]

After reading all 10 pages, I've never seen someone fight so hard to avoid the T14 with decent money. OP is the Anti-TLSer -- the apocalypse is upon us.

Haha, yes, I guess I am "the Anti-TLSer" lol, although I don't see why that's a particularly bad thing considering my circumstances. I'm not aiming to go into BigLaw, so it doesn't make sense for me to go into so much debt for a prestigious name. Perhaps if I got a decent scholarship into an Ivy with a more public interest focus, like NYU, or if I got a full ride at Cornell, it would be a different story. But I personally know many people not on this forum who also have what you would call an "anti-TLS" mentality, and most of them are doing fine, working in the field of their choosing, either in BigLaw or Public Interest. They chose cost over name, and it worked out in their favor. I'm not saying that means it'll work out for me, but it definitely won't lead to an apocalypse, lol.