Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[jbagelboy]

There are fields with much lower starting salaries than 30-50k

They're not actually fields, they're take what you can get jobs that don't require any particular field.

That's not necessarily true. I was a journalism major, and reporters make peanuts. I had many friends making >$20k out of school. Most were in the 20-25k range, with a few who landed great jobs at a big city newspaper or tv station.

And as a reporter, you have to pay your dues big time. Go to a small town middle of nowhere make no money for three years -> go to a medium sizes town make no money for five years -> maybe get to a big city making OK money.

I mean, yeah, you can eventually make a career of it, but the hours suck, the pay sucks and you have to keep moving if you want to advance. So, law school -> big law doesn't sound so bad.

Another example: social work.

Another related field: publishing. My friend was offered $28k/year for full time work at one of the most prestigious publishers in NYC. Most internships even for college graduates are entirely unpaid or minimum wage. It's for all practical intents and purposes exclusively for those with "independent" means

[francesfarmer]

Another related field: publishing. My friend was offered $28k/year for full time work at one of the most prestigious publishers in NYC. Most internships even for college graduates are entirely unpaid or minimum wage. It's for all practical intents and purposes exclusively for those with "independent" means

Word, publishing is horrible. I have a friend who is a director of a department at a really profitable publishing agency who makes $32k. And their interns are unpaid, SHOCKER

[Theopliske8711]

Another related field: publishing. My friend was offered $28k/year for full time work at one of the most prestigious publishers in NYC. Most internships even for college graduates are entirely unpaid or minimum wage. It's for all practical intents and purposes exclusively for those with "independent" means

And like, what, a 1/3 actually get offers from them? It's a racket. "No pay for you, we are offering prestige, and we have an NYU trustfunder at the ready to take it."

That said, my friend's sister started at 15K a year at a publishing firm, with no real experience, and now makes a solid 6-figure income in their social-media department. She graduated with a lib arts degree (creative writing). Sounds pretty boot-strap-esque, and obviously she was unique in her willingness to pretty much pull in 70-hour weeks while making shit wages for 3 years or so.

[EquallyWrong]

Even people with humanities degrees are bit looking at jobs that pay $30-50k for life. It is possible to find good employment with a humanities degree. You may start out earning $30-50k and you may even be in them for a number of years, but to say that's all you'll earn on perpetuity is really short-sighted.

There are fields with much lower starting salaries than 30-50k

They're not actually fields, they're take what you can get jobs that don't require any particular field.

That's not necessarily true. I was a journalism major, and reporters make peanuts. I had many friends making <$20k out of school. Most were in the 20-25k range, with a few who landed great jobs at a big city newspaper or tv station.

And as a reporter, you have to pay your dues big time. Go to a small town middle of nowhere make no money for three years -> go to a medium sizes town make no money for five years -> maybe get to a big city making OK money.

I mean, yeah, you can eventually make a career of it, but the hours suck, the pay sucks and you have to keep moving if you want to advance. So, law school -> big law doesn't sound so bad.

Don't forget that journalistic standards are being further eroded every day, so if you're making money as a so called journalist ten years from now you will almost certainly be a miserable hack in one form or another. David Corn had, apparently, told my slightly older up and coming colleague flat out: quit now and go to med school.... So, successful journalists tell you their job would ruin your life, 9 out of 10 doctors say their job will ruin your life, and lawyers are also, apparently, in a collapsing profession nobody in their right mind should want (or at the very least pay for). I mean, maybe if we all banded together and formed a colony underneath a bridge like a bunch of sex offenders...then we could live the American dream.

[rayiner]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

[bjsesq]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

Something something important work something something watergate something something America.

[francesfarmer]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

I mentioned publishing specifically because its highly underpaid. Go back two pages. I have a well-paying job with a liberal arts degree and a shit GPA. I never meant to suggest it was impossible or even that difficult.

Lol at getting an accounting/IT job with a liberal arts degree (I know someone with a poli sci degree who now works in IT but he worked at our campus IT department for all of college)

[NYSprague]

Yeah, the 160k salary is not guaranteed, but at schools like Cornell/Duke/Penn they are essentially 70% if you want it.

I bet the number is more like 80%. That said, if anybody takes anything out of the posts practicing attorneys have made in these threads, it's this: that's not the only risk that matters. It's 20% chance of striking out AND non-zero chance of getting no-offered or Lathamed AND non-zero chance of getting big law and hating it so much you quit within a year AND 50% chance of burning out within 3 years AND non-zero chance of not landing a good in-house or government gig after leaving big law, etc.

I think big law odds throughout the T14 are better than people assume. However, I think there is a tendency on TLS to think that once you get big law, you're golden. That's wrong. From a T14, getting big law is the easy part. Putting up with it long enough to pay down loans and exit into a career you enjoy is the real battle.

People assume law is a stable career and their lifetime earnings will be huge. (Yet we know that a large number of lawyers drop out of law entirely.) I feel that law schools could charge any amount for tuition and as long as the government would lend the money, people will borrow it. There seems to be no limit.

I remember when NU first had a COA over $80,000 a few years ago and people justified it. Now people will justify $300,000. Everyone sees the biglaw dollar signs, even though salaries have been dropping (through the hiring of permanent associates at lower salaries and no real bonuses at most firms)and cost of living has been increasing.

I don't agree that biglaw is so easily attainable. Maybe before the crash, but not now. But you know the numbers better than I do, so you are probably correct.

Edit to add: was it this thread where the 1st year posted that he makes $3100 biweekly, before paying loans, rent, etc. (that included insurance, 401k and repaying an advance as well as taxes.) use real take home numbers not the mythical
$160,000 or 96,000 after taxes.

[EquallyWrong]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc?

I didn't go to school for journalism or anything. I applied to everything under the sun with my liberal arts degree, the journalism stuff just came about because those are people that can appreciate a solid writing sample. I drifted into it, now I'm drifting out of it for something I'm probably better suited for and might provide a bit more stability than the noble calling of investigative journalism. I'll admit to not getting the publishing thing, but there's no need for you to go all coked up high school career counselor and start rattling off the litany of the so called practical professions. Fuck off to me? Fuck off to you, pal.

[jk148706]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

[francesfarmer]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Yuppppp A+ reading comprehension

For the record I suggest everyone in undergrad study programming or econ. Done.

[bjsesq]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Yuppppp A+ reading comprehension

For the record I suggest everyone in undergrad study programming or econ. Done.

Why econ? Wouldn't accounting be more practical?

[francesfarmer]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Yuppppp A+ reading comprehension

For the record I suggest everyone in undergrad study programming or econ. Done.

Why econ? Wouldn't accounting be more practical?

Whatever helps you become an i-banker. (I don't actually know anyone in undergrad)

[Theopliske8711]

Econ --> Analyst, and perhaps business school in the future. Some Analysts I know pull in 125K. Their hours are biglaw-esque, however, but they can save more.

PS: Sorry, I hope not to turn this into another i-banking circle jerk.

[nouseforaname123]

People are justifying $300k in non-dischargeable, unsecured debt for a non-guaranteed payout? That's literally a bet that people cannot afford to lose. If this deal goes bad, a student is looking at at least two decades of significant financial hardship (if not ruin). And if things go well, still looking at a couple of decades of slightly less onerous financial hardship.

I don't understand the kind of person who is willing to take this type of risk but can't find anything else to do.

[rayiner]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Not quite. People are using journalism and publishing as examples along the lines of "well you think law is so bad, look how little people get paid in journalism and publishing!" What I'm saying is that you shouldn't go to law school just because some other over-saturated professions are worse. There's a lot more alternatives out there.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Not quite. People are using journalism and publishing as examples along the lines of "well you think law is so bad, look how little people get paid in journalism and publishing!" What I'm saying is that you shouldn't go to law school just because some other over-saturated professions are worse. There's a lot more alternatives out there.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make as well.

[francesfarmer]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Not quite. People are using journalism and publishing as examples along the lines of "well you think law is so bad, look how little people get paid in journalism and publishing!" What I'm saying is that you shouldn't go to law school just because some other over-saturated professions are worse. There's a lot more alternatives out there.

Nah that wasn't really it, it was more a discussion about opportunity cost in various fields and some jobs in which a liberal arts major may find herself where pay tops out at 50k. Nobody made any comparisons to shitlaw.

At no point did anyone suggest that journalism, publishing and social work are great fields a recent grad should enter if they want to make decent money; we were saying the opposite.

I agree with your overall sentiment. I think too many people jump into law school without considering other career alternatives and without recognizing that they actually have no idea what their career could look like in another field.

[Chrysogonus]

So, OP paid sticker for NW right? Is OP calling himself stupid?

Classic "do as I say, not as I do" -- boy we're hearing a lot of that lately

[TheSpanishMain]

So, OP paid sticker for NW right? Is OP calling himself stupid?

Classic "do as I say, not as I do" -- boy we're hearing a lot of that lately

I have no idea about the OP, but don't you think that would make it more compelling, not less? "Don't do what I did, it was a bad idea"?

[bjsesq]

So, OP paid sticker for NW right? Is OP calling himself stupid?

Classic "do as I say, not as I do" -- boy we're hearing a lot of that lately

I have no idea about the OP, but don't you think that would make it more compelling, not less? "Don't do what I did, it was a bad idea"?

We demand that people who tell us an action is a bad idea have no experience with it. That way, you know they know what they are talking about.

[09042014]

So, OP paid sticker for NW right? Is OP calling himself stupid?

Classic "do as I say, not as I do" -- boy we're hearing a lot of that lately

I'm calling myself stupid. I've got biglaw. I make 160k dollars a year. Paying off loans quickly is unrealistic. I'm doing it fast as I can, and it 1)sux 2) is hard to do 3) makes the long hours not worth it.

Now imagine the people with the same debt but making 45k.

And sticker is now what 300k? That's 40k more than what I had.

[jk148706]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Not quite. People are using journalism and publishing as examples along the lines of "well you think law is so bad, look how little people get paid in journalism and publishing!" What I'm saying is that you shouldn't go to law school just because some other over-saturated professions are worse. There's a lot more alternatives out there.

Ok, yeah I 100% agree with this. I was responding to your comment that we "had our heads in the clouds .. Get the fuck outta here" when we were saying journalism/publishing/social work are BAD alternatives. Like, no one ever advocated going into any of those fields so your initial comment made no sense.

[EquallyWrong]

You guys suck at thinking about jobs you can get with a liberal arts degree. Journalism, publishing? Are you serious? Those are massively oversaturated careers, just like law. How about accounting, recruiting, HR, IT, insurance, sales, health care, etc? My friend started out making 40-50k/year in a low-COL state writing up bids for a company that does contract work for cable/telecom companies. Another started at 35-40k in an entry-level position at an insurance company. I'm not going to say that there's tons of jobs out there, but you guys have your heads in the clouds. Publishing? Get the fuck out of here.

What? People are specifically mentioning those careers as things to SKIP not go into

Not quite. People are using journalism and publishing as examples along the lines of "well you think law is so bad, look how little people get paid in journalism and publishing!" What I'm saying is that you shouldn't go to law school just because some other over-saturated professions are worse. There's a lot more alternatives out there.

yeah, some points diverged here. journalism/publishing/unemployment was only meant to show that the opportunity cost of spending three years in school would be less and the relative gains of attending higher than for, say, someone working steadily as an accountant...not that that isn't an option to consider (if one is so inclined). venting about the shittiness of one situation doesn't mean people consider law school the only alternative just cuz...it's just the one they find the most attractive all things considered. I don't know why that's controversial or cloudy headed.

[worldtraveler]

Is it just me or are the incoming 1Ls especially snowflakey this year?