The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Well, few people have been graded on a 100% final essay system that is graded subjectively and curved before law school. Mostly because it is such a shitty way to teach anything, but that's another topic.

It's not necessarily done for the pedagogical value; a lot of the reason for the grading system is a sorting mechanism for employers.

That is definitely true, but I find it strange that it is the perspective educators take as well.

What?

If there is no pedagogical reason to teach in the current manner, why do educators not improve on the current 100% curved final exam system? That was my question, but I also did not intend to take this off-topic.

[ph14]

It's not necessarily done for the pedagogical value; a lot of the reason for the grading system is a sorting mechanism for employers.

That is definitely true, but I find it strange that it is the perspective educators take as well.

What?

If there is no pedagogical reason to teach in the current manner, why do educators not improve on the current 100% curved final exam system? That was my question, but I also did not intend to take this off-topic.

There are a lot of arguments that have been made in favor of the current case-based method of legal education, the socratic method, and the curved final exam system comprising 100% of your grade. You might not find the arguments persuasive, but your assumption that "there is no pedagogical reason to teach in the current manner" is wrong. Anyways, I agree that we shouldn't derail this thread so PM me if you want to discuss further.

[thesealocust]

This article makes some interesting points: http://thepeoplestherapist.com/2011/04/13/not-worth-it/

Then, on the flip side, so does this: http://thepeoplestherapist.com/2013/04/24/odd-ducks/

Biglaw is often incompatible with life, but it can also be awesome. The deals and cases are legitimately gigantic and important, and the difference between victory and defeat really can come down to how clever and/or sleep deprived you're willing to be on behalf of your client. Some of the people are broken and horrible but some are great too (many of the great ones are posting ITT )

Biglaw is a long-form existential crisis for all of my friends - for a host of varied reasons.

[sd5289]

The people at the very top are the ones everyone sees going out for drinks on weekdays and leaving town on he weekends. You hardly ever see them at the library or in professor's office hours. Nobody ever knows how they do it. They seemingly never study and make everything look easy.

This, this, THIS. I took my school up on the free meal and drinks associated with coming and talking to 0L's about law school during the admitted students day, and this was my #1 piece of advice whenever I was asked..."whatever's important to you in life right now, keep doing it in law school. Make time for it otherwise you will suffer and your performance will likely follow suit."

Finals period (and the week or two before) still sucks, and about the only thing I get out of the house to do is go for a run, trudge to the store for food, or grab a coffee, but I stay the hell away from the law library during that time. TBH, I think I may have been in the law library during my past two years of law school a handful of times. There's just no reason to be churning 12 hour days out at any other time than crunch time, e.g. finals time.

The people I've noticed who are around the same class rank as me seem to do the same. They're not up at the front badgering the prof after every class is over, and are probably just as confused as I am by the concept of "office hours" with a prof. The only profs I spend quality time with are the one I work for as an RA and my clinic prof. Relax. You'll probably be happier and do a little better.

[ph14]

The people at the very top are the ones everyone sees going out for drinks on weekdays and leaving town on he weekends. You hardly ever see them at the library or in professor's office hours. Nobody ever knows how they do it. They seemingly never study and make everything look easy.

This, this, THIS. I took my school up on the free meal and drinks associated with coming and talking to 0L's about law school during the admitted students day, and this was my #1 piece of advice whenever I was asked..."whatever's important to you in life right now, keep doing it in law school. Make time for it otherwise you will suffer and your performance will likely follow suit."

Finals period (and the week or two before) still sucks, and about the only thing I get out of the house to do is go for a run, trudge to the store for food, or grab a coffee, but I stay the hell away from the law library during that time. TBH, I think I may have been in the law library during my past two years of law school a handful of times. There's just no reason to be churning 12 hour days out at any other time than crunch time, e.g. finals time.

The people I've noticed who are around the same class rank as me seem to do the same. They're not up at the front badgering the prof after every class is over, and are probably just as confused as I am by the concept of "office hours" with a prof. The only profs I spend quality time with are the one I work for as an RA and my clinic prof. Relax. You'll probably be happier and do a little better.

The credited answer is to do what works best for you, which isn't necessarily what works for other people. Your advice might work for some people, but not for others. There isn't a "do this and get top 10%."

[sd5289]

The people at the very top are the ones everyone sees going out for drinks on weekdays and leaving town on he weekends. You hardly ever see them at the library or in professor's office hours. Nobody ever knows how they do it. They seemingly never study and make everything look easy.

This, this, THIS. I took my school up on the free meal and drinks associated with coming and talking to 0L's about law school during the admitted students day, and this was my #1 piece of advice whenever I was asked..."whatever's important to you in life right now, keep doing it in law school. Make time for it otherwise you will suffer and your performance will likely follow suit."

Finals period (and the week or two before) still sucks, and about the only thing I get out of the house to do is go for a run, trudge to the store for food, or grab a coffee, but I stay the hell away from the law library during that time. TBH, I think I may have been in the law library during my past two years of law school a handful of times. There's just no reason to be churning 12 hour days out at any other time than crunch time, e.g. finals time.

The people I've noticed who are around the same class rank as me seem to do the same. They're not up at the front badgering the prof after every class is over, and are probably just as confused as I am by the concept of "office hours" with a prof. The only profs I spend quality time with are the one I work for as an RA and my clinic prof. Relax. You'll probably be happier and do a little better.

The credited answer is to do what works best for you, which isn't necessarily what works for other people. Your advice might work for some people, but not for others. There isn't a "do this and get top 10%."

Good point. Probably more so for work hours/environment though. I do think that the people around me who are most miserable are also the ones who allowed law school to swallow up their entire existence. Some may not have been as established in their "life" prior to law school, sure, but I can't help but notice that the people who just stopped doing everything but law school are the ones who are definitely struggling and seem like they hate everything (worried about a few 2L friends from my old section who seem to be spiraling to that point...boo law school).

[09042014]

Legit Q to the NU alums here...are you all as unhappy as you seem here? As a soon to be NU alum, I'm concerened. I have immense respect for DF, IAFG and Ray (well in a "I know you vaguely from TLS respect kind of way), but it seems like you all are (or in Rays case were) generally bitter about our biglaw life so far. Am I misreading things? Is it different than what you expected or did you more or less expect it to be like this.

I'll hang up and listen.

I don't hate it too bad, but I've been doing big law lite so far. I'm legit on track for 1100 hours and thats with pro bono and some bullshit fake hours I get credit for.

My team just got a huge case. So check back in 3 months.

But the other 7 people I started with hate it.

[rad lulz]

Legit Q to the NU alums here...are you all as unhappy as you seem here? As a soon to be NU alum, I'm concerened. I have immense respect for DF, IAFG and Ray (well in a "I know you vaguely from TLS respect kind of way), but it seems like you all are (or in Rays case were) generally bitter about our biglaw life so far. Am I misreading things? Is it different than what you expected or did you more or less expect it to be like this.

I'll hang up and listen.

I don't hate it too bad, but I've been doing big law lite so far. I'm legit on track for 1100 hours and thats with pro bono and some bullshit fake hours I get credit for.

My team just got a huge case. So check back in 3 months.

But the other 7 people I started with hate it.

2100 hrs?

[09042014]

Legit Q to the NU alums here...are you all as unhappy as you seem here? As a soon to be NU alum, I'm concerened. I have immense respect for DF, IAFG and Ray (well in a "I know you vaguely from TLS respect kind of way), but it seems like you all are (or in Rays case were) generally bitter about our biglaw life so far. Am I misreading things? Is it different than what you expected or did you more or less expect it to be like this.

I'll hang up and listen.

I don't hate it too bad, but I've been doing big law lite so far. I'm legit on track for 1100 hours and thats with pro bono and some bullshit fake hours I get credit for.

My team just got a huge case. So check back in 3 months.

But the other 7 people I started with hate it.

2100 hrs?

No 1100. I've been slow as fuuuurk.

[KD35]

No 1100. I've been slow as fuuuurk.

Hopefully will speed up really soon. . . we are halfway through April already!

[rad lulz]

Legit Q to the NU alums here...are you all as unhappy as you seem here? As a soon to be NU alum, I'm concerened. I have immense respect for DF, IAFG and Ray (well in a "I know you vaguely from TLS respect kind of way), but it seems like you all are (or in Rays case were) generally bitter about our biglaw life so far. Am I misreading things? Is it different than what you expected or did you more or less expect it to be like this.

I'll hang up and listen.

I don't hate it too bad, but I've been doing big law lite so far. I'm legit on track for 1100 hours and thats with pro bono and some bullshit fake hours I get credit for.

My team just got a huge case. So check back in 3 months.

But the other 7 people I started with hate it.

2100 hrs?

No 1100. I've been slow as fuuuurk.

I know you've said a couple times you were slow but dang 1100 is SLOW

[PDaddy]

The people at the very top are the ones everyone sees going out for drinks on weekdays and leaving town on he weekends. You hardly ever see them at the library or in professor's office hours. Nobody ever knows how they do it. They seemingly never study and make everything look easy.

This, this, THIS. I took my school up on the free meal and drinks associated with coming and talking to 0L's about law school during the admitted students day, and this was my #1 piece of advice whenever I was asked..."whatever's important to you in life right now, keep doing it in law school. Make time for it otherwise you will suffer and your performance will likely follow suit."

Finals period (and the week or two before) still sucks, and about the only thing I get out of the house to do is go for a run, trudge to the store for food, or grab a coffee, but I stay the hell away from the law library during that time. TBH, I think I may have been in the law library during my past two years of law school a handful of times. There's just no reason to be churning 12 hour days out at any other time than crunch time, e.g. finals time.

The people I've noticed who are around the same class rank as me seem to do the same. They're not up at the front badgering the prof after every class is over, and are probably just as confused as I am by the concept of "office hours" with a prof. The only profs I spend quality time with are the one I work for as an RA and my clinic prof. Relax. You'll probably be happier and do a little better.

The credited answer is to do what works best for you, which isn't necessarily what works for other people. Your advice might work for some people, but not for others. There isn't a "do this and get top 10%."

Good point. Probably more so for work hours/environment though. I do think that the people around me who are most miserable are also the ones who allowed law school to swallow up their entire existence. Some may not have been as established in their "life" prior to law school, sure, but I can't help but notice that the people who just stopped doing everything but law school are the ones who are definitely struggling and seem like they hate everything (worried about a few 2L friends from my old section who seem to be spiraling to that point...boo law school).

Point being, we all agree that the best situation for any student is one in which he can feel the most at ease. That means different things to different people.

I'm sure we also agree that my anecdotal post above isn't meant to advise 1L's to screw off during school. Whatever happens, you need to be in a position to accept any result before you go to law school.

Some of the happy, carefree folks I spoke about are probably not debt-ridden or have other prospects lined up after law school. A few of the crazy ones just have that IDGAF attitude that continues to result in good fortune for them. It may sound weird, but people (including recruiters) are probably drawn to people like that, but that doesn't mean it's completely healthy or wise. Even quiet confidence can come off as arrogance to the most discriminating people.

It's hard to strike that balance between IDGAF and "I care enough not to screw up". Most of us are trying to reach that level of "I care, but no matter what I will be ok". If that isn't you, don't go to law school.

[homestyle28]

Legit Q to the NU alums here...are you all as unhappy as you seem here? As a soon to be NU alum, I'm concerened. I have immense respect for DF, IAFG and Ray (well in a "I know you vaguely from TLS respect kind of way), but it seems like you all are (or in Rays case were) generally bitter about our biglaw life so far. Am I misreading things? Is it different than what you expected or did you more or less expect it to be like this.

I'm not bitter, and liked big law just fine. I do think I was naive in ways. I thought the hours would be the hard part, and that I'd be okay with that because I had worked long hours at my pre-LS job. But for me, the poorly-adjusted mid levels were the worst part. Some of my busiest months coincided with working on small, well-managed teams doing substantive work. And those months, I really enjoyed my job. I would say I got top 10-15% in terms of staffing luck, though.

But there's a high chance that you'll get into a group doing just doc review or with people you hate. I have a friend that quit a little more than a year in for that reason, and she's an incredibly hard worker. It's a risk, just like any other risk in law school (the risk of striking out, the risk of getting no-offered). I think 0L's have an idea that those latter risks exist, but don't really appreciate the risk that they'll hate the job. And I think if they did, they'd make different decisions about how much debt to take on.

Thanks for your perspective.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

I can see litigation biglaw being interesting because of the importance and size of the cases, but is transactional as interesting? I hear the times are less predictable, but what is the actual day-to-day work a transactional junior associate does? I feel like transactional is more desirable because of the in-house exit option; are there any desirable litigation exit options other than AUSA/FPD?

[HRomanus]

I can see litigation biglaw being interesting because of the importance and size of the cases, but is transactional as interesting? I hear the times are less predictable, but what is the actual day-to-day work a transactional junior associate does? I feel like transactional is more desirable because of the in-house exit option; are there any desirable litigation exit options other than AUSA/FPD?

On that topic, what is the best way to identify whether you want to go pursue litigation or transactional law?

[rad lulz]

I can see litigation biglaw being interesting because of the importance and size of the cases, but is transactional as interesting? I hear the times are less predictable, but what is the actual day-to-day work a transactional junior associate does? I feel like transactional is more desirable because of the in-house exit option; are there any desirable litigation exit options other than AUSA/FPD?

Other govt

Other defense firms

Plaintiffs side

In house

[09042014]

I don't hate it too bad, but I've been doing big law lite so far. I'm legit on track for 1100 hours and thats with pro bono and some bullshit fake hours I get credit for.

My team just got a huge case. So check back in 3 months.

But the other 7 people I started with hate it.

2100 hrs?

No 1100. I've been slow as fuuuurk.

I know you've said a couple times you were slow but dang 1100 is SLOW

I should be good now. Multibillion dollar case with no budget.

[KatyMarie]

I can see litigation biglaw being interesting because of the importance and size of the cases, but is transactional as interesting? I hear the times are less predictable, but what is the actual day-to-day work a transactional junior associate does? I feel like transactional is more desirable because of the in-house exit option; are there any desirable litigation exit options other than AUSA/FPD?

On that topic, what is the best way to identify whether you want to go pursue litigation or transactional law?

Also interested in this ^

[rad lulz]

I should be good now. Multibillion dollar case with no budget.

Billable hrs get em while they're hot

[thesealocust]

Identifying lit vs. transactional: If you can't tolerate lawyers/law students and LRW makes you want to die, do transactional. If you love Law & Order and signed up for moot court, do litigation.

WTF is corporate: Corporate is doing whatever it takes to get a massive transaction done while protecting your client from harm, real and imagined. It ranges from Highlight for Children (see if you can spot the difference between a PDF and an SEC filing proof!) to sudden-death-over-time-be-clever-and-solve-a-complex-legal-challenege-or-everyone-loses-and-the-deal-dies. People throw around the phrase "quarterbacking a deal" but it's a good way to describe it. You have to tend to a massive process - a "deal" can involve dozens of documents, some of which involve name and date swap from precedent transactions while others have substantive points to be negotiated or drafted from scratch. And all of them probably need to be copied a million times and have ten signature pages each affixed.

[HRomanus]

Identifying lit vs. transactional: If you can't tolerate lawyers/law students and LRW makes you want to die, do transactional. If you love Law & Order and signed up for moot court, do litigation.

What is a good process to follow in 1L to identify your interests and strengths? Is it disadvantageous to seek some experience in both during law school?

[thesealocust]

Identifying lit vs. transactional: If you can't tolerate lawyers/law students and LRW makes you want to die, do transactional. If you love Law & Order and signed up for moot court, do litigation.

What is a good process to follow in 1L to identify your interests and strengths? Is it disadvantageous to seek some experience in both during law school?

1L is 100% litigation mentality. Read the WSJ, Barbarians at the Gates, and actively try to learn what corporate is or you'll have no idea and wind up in litigation like everyone else.

Source: corporate lawyer going on 14+ months without having logged into lexis or westlaw, who sent an angry email to coworkers when he actually had to google a law the other week

[rad lulz]

Identifying lit vs. transactional: If you can't tolerate lawyers/law students and LRW makes you want to die, do transactional. If you love Law & Order and signed up for moot court, do litigation.

WTF is corporate: Corporate is doing whatever it takes to get a massive transaction done while protecting your client from harm, real and imagined. It ranges from Highlight for Children (see if you can spot the difference between a PDF and an SEC filing proof!) to sudden-death-over-time-be-clever-and-solve-a-complex-legal-challenege-or-everyone-loses-and-the-deal-dies. People throw around the phrase "quarterbacking a deal" but it's a good way to describe it. You have to tend to a massive process - a "deal" can involve dozens of documents, some of which involve name and date swap from precedent transactions while others have substantive points to be negotiated or drafted from scratch. And all of them probably need to be copied a million times and have ten signature pages each affixed.

Don't forget such exciting aspects as waiting at 2am for docs to be printed

[Pneumonia]

Anyone able to give a summary of lit similar to the one that TSL gave of corporate?

[withoutapaddle]

How do you get pushed out of Big Law