Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[hashashin]

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

No one says this, but the fact is the majority of government/business/PI jobs are ones that don't pay enough to make a normal monthly loan payment at sticker-level debt. Unless your school has a great LRAP, you'll just have to pray that PSLF doesn't get taken away 10 years from now or that you don't get screwed by budget cuts down the road.

Yes, there are some FedGov positions that pay six figures after a few years, and a few of the "business" jobs are actually decent jobs in consulting, etc. I know of a few from my school in each. But the good jobs in these categories are pretty rare and go mostly to the top schools. Consulting firms are just as selective as Biglaw. A lot of FedGov has cutoffs somewhere around T20 or higher. The percentage of Harvard people working in business where the job is actually a great job is probably close to 90%. But this percentage is likely more like 15% for most schools outside the T25...and even that's probably pretty generous.

The thing is, schools could very easily solve this problem by simply releasing more granular employment data. There's a few (Vandy, at least, and maybe a few others) that release basically all the details of each job minus the name of the student. If people could actually look at the job and make the decision for themselves that it was a good one, none of this would be a problem. And if law schools hadn't been terrible, bald-faced liars in the past, people would tend to give them more credit. Instead, we had schools reporting that their graduates working as a barista at Starbucks are working in "Business" where the median salary is like "$85K." We had schools hire their own unemployed graduates for a month or two right at the 9-month mark so they could tell US News that they were employed. We had schools putting their own students in free LLM programs because getting a LLM used to count as employed.

The truth is, you can add maybe 5% to each school outside the T10's score to represent all the decent jobs you get out of the business/government/public interest categories combined. But that's it. You can also probably subtract a point or three from their "Biglaw" scores because 1) some of these jobs are contract attorney jobs doing doc review for the big firms, and 2) not all firms with 100 lawyers or more actually pay market--in fact, some of them are just huge personal injury/bankrupcy mills that are like shitlaw only worse like Peter Frances Geraci.

To Twenty: Because Campos inspires bullshit quantitative analysis like this.

[JCougar]

To Twenty: Because Campos inspires bullshit quantitative analysis like this.

Dude, are you stupid or something?

The point is you can't do quantitative analysis on placement because law schools actively prevent you from having enough data to do so.

If they weren't hiding anything, it would only help their cause by releasing more transparent data. Yet they refuse to every year. Why do you think that is?

[hashashin]

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

No one says this, but the fact is the majority of government/business/PI jobs are ones that don't pay enough to make a normal monthly loan payment at sticker-level debt. Unless your school has a great LRAP, you'll just have to pray that PSLF doesn't get taken away 10 years from now or that you don't get screwed by budget cuts down the road.

Yes, there are some FedGov positions that pay six figures after a few years, and a few of the "business" jobs are actually decent jobs in consulting, etc. I know of a few from my school in each. But the good jobs in these categories are pretty rare and go mostly to the top schools. Consulting firms are just as selective as Biglaw. A lot of FedGov has cutoffs somewhere around T20 or higher. The percentage of Harvard people working in business where the job is actually a great job is probably close to 90%. But this percentage is likely more like 15% for most schools outside the T25...and even that's probably pretty generous.

The thing is, schools could very easily solve this problem by simply releasing more granular employment data. There's a few (Vandy, at least, and maybe a few others) that release basically all the details of each job minus the name of the student. If people could actually look at the job and make the decision for themselves that it was a good one, none of this would be a problem. And if law schools hadn't been terrible, bald-faced liars in the past, people would tend to give them more credit. Instead, we had schools reporting that their graduates working as a barista at Starbucks are working in "Business" where the median salary is like "$85K." We had schools hire their own unemployed graduates for a month or two right at the 9-month mark so they could tell US News that they were employed. We had schools putting their own students in free LLM programs because getting a LLM used to count as employed.

The truth is, you can add maybe 5% to each school outside the T10's score to represent all the decent jobs you get out of the business/government/public interest categories combined. But that's it. You can also probably subtract a point or three from their "Biglaw" scores because 1) some of these jobs are contract attorney jobs doing doc review for the big firms, and 2) not all firms with 100 lawyers or more actually pay market--in fact, some of them are just huge personal injury/bankrupcy mills that are like shitlaw only worse like Peter Frances Geraci.

Is this called Rage Math?

[hashashin]

To Twenty: Because Campos inspires bullshit quantitative analysis like this.

Dude, are you stupid or something?

The point is you can't do quantitative analysis on placement because law schools actively prevent you from having enough data to do so.

If they weren't hiding anything, it would only help their cause by releasing more transparent data. Yet they refuse to every year. Why do you think that is?

Wait...so...you confess that, since no numbers are actually available, yours must have emerged from your anus, correct?

[JCougar]

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

No one says this, but the fact is the majority of government/business/PI jobs are ones that don't pay enough to make a normal monthly loan payment at sticker-level debt. Unless your school has a great LRAP, you'll just have to pray that PSLF doesn't get taken away 10 years from now or that you don't get screwed by budget cuts down the road.

Yes, there are some FedGov positions that pay six figures after a few years, and a few of the "business" jobs are actually decent jobs in consulting, etc. I know of a few from my school in each. But the good jobs in these categories are pretty rare and go mostly to the top schools. Consulting firms are just as selective as Biglaw. A lot of FedGov has cutoffs somewhere around T20 or higher. The percentage of Harvard people working in business where the job is actually a great job is probably close to 90%. But this percentage is likely more like 15% for most schools outside the T25...and even that's probably pretty generous.

The thing is, schools could very easily solve this problem by simply releasing more granular employment data. There's a few (Vandy, at least, and maybe a few others) that release basically all the details of each job minus the name of the student. If people could actually look at the job and make the decision for themselves that it was a good one, none of this would be a problem. And if law schools hadn't been terrible, bald-faced liars in the past, people would tend to give them more credit. Instead, we had schools reporting that their graduates working as a barista at Starbucks are working in "Business" where the median salary is like "$85K." We had schools hire their own unemployed graduates for a month or two right at the 9-month mark so they could tell US News that they were employed. We had schools putting their own students in free LLM programs because getting a LLM used to count as employed.

The truth is, you can add maybe 5% to each school outside the T10's score to represent all the decent jobs you get out of the business/government/public interest categories combined. But that's it. You can also probably subtract a point or three from their "Biglaw" scores because 1) some of these jobs are contract attorney jobs doing doc review for the big firms, and 2) not all firms with 100 lawyers or more actually pay market--in fact, some of them are just huge personal injury/bankrupcy mills that are like shitlaw only worse like Peter Frances Geraci.

Is this called Rage Math?

It's called speculation because that's all we can do with the incomplete dataset we have. It's based on my own personal experience (of which I have a lot more than you) and based on the reported personal experiences of others (who also have more personal experience in the job market than you).

Like I said, I think there is something wrong with your mind if you can't figure this out.

[hashashin]

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

No one says this, but the fact is the majority of government/business/PI jobs are ones that don't pay enough to make a normal monthly loan payment at sticker-level debt. Unless your school has a great LRAP, you'll just have to pray that PSLF doesn't get taken away 10 years from now or that you don't get screwed by budget cuts down the road.

Yes, there are some FedGov positions that pay six figures after a few years, and a few of the "business" jobs are actually decent jobs in consulting, etc. I know of a few from my school in each. But the good jobs in these categories are pretty rare and go mostly to the top schools. Consulting firms are just as selective as Biglaw. A lot of FedGov has cutoffs somewhere around T20 or higher. The percentage of Harvard people working in business where the job is actually a great job is probably close to 90%. But this percentage is likely more like 15% for most schools outside the T25...and even that's probably pretty generous.

The thing is, schools could very easily solve this problem by simply releasing more granular employment data. There's a few (Vandy, at least, and maybe a few others) that release basically all the details of each job minus the name of the student. If people could actually look at the job and make the decision for themselves that it was a good one, none of this would be a problem. And if law schools hadn't been terrible, bald-faced liars in the past, people would tend to give them more credit. Instead, we had schools reporting that their graduates working as a barista at Starbucks are working in "Business" where the median salary is like "$85K." We had schools hire their own unemployed graduates for a month or two right at the 9-month mark so they could tell US News that they were employed. We had schools putting their own students in free LLM programs because getting a LLM used to count as employed.

The truth is, you can add maybe 5% to each school outside the T10's score to represent all the decent jobs you get out of the business/government/public interest categories combined. But that's it. You can also probably subtract a point or three from their "Biglaw" scores because 1) some of these jobs are contract attorney jobs doing doc review for the big firms, and 2) not all firms with 100 lawyers or more actually pay market--in fact, some of them are just huge personal injury/bankrupcy mills that are like shitlaw only worse like Peter Frances Geraci.

Is this called Rage Math?

It's called speculation because that's all we can do with the incomplete dataset we have. It's based on my own personal experience (of which I have a lot more than you) and based on the reported personal experiences of others.

Like I said, I think there is something wrong with your mind if you can't figure this out.

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

[JCougar]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

[hashashin]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

[JCougar]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

I'm trying to say that I know a lot of people with first-hand experience with the job market from all levels of the law school hierarchy. I know what kind of jobs people are likely to get from which schools. I know people working at law libraries, I know people who have been volunteering for over a year after graduation, and I know people at V10 biglaw firms and Article III clerkships. And I know a lot in between. We all talk about our experiences.

[isuperserial]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

You are a tool of the highest order.

[LRGhost]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

Campos: Literal fucking hero

You: 1L mouthbreather

Campos: Talks about what comes after Big Law from the perspective of Big Lawyers

You: Think you'll be successful, beat the odds, a true American dream

Campos: Chilling with a cushy job telling people not to make a huge mistake that would probably benefit him

You: Here.

[hashashin]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

Campos: Literal fucking hero

You: 1L mouthbreather

Campos: Talks about what comes after Big Law from the perspective of Big Lawyers

You: Think you'll be successful, beat the odds, a true American dream

Campos: Chilling with a cushy job telling people not to make a huge mistake that would probably benefit him

You: Here.

Somewhat inaccurate...1L mouthbreather, sure, but one with a 1L Biglaw Summer Associateship.

Also, Campos' cushy job is at CU...think he meets a lot of fans there?

[LRGhost]

stupid shit

You're an actual idiot who eats shit but think it's candy.

[hashashin]

Your "personal experience" with what? It doesn't really look like you've done anything with Biglaw, BigGov, PI...or just work in general.

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

You are a tool of the highest order.

Good luck at Colorado bro!

[hashashin]

stupid shit

You're an actual idiot who eats shit but think it's candy.

That made me LOL...but...I don't think that I ever typed what you quote above.

[isuperserial]

Gosh, you are an insufferable idiot. I am a practicing attorney. I graduated with an entire class of people that are now practicing attorneys. I have friends from my school and other schools. I have coworkers from peer schools. I have friends that transferred into HYS. I worked two clerkships in one of the fields you listed above, and have a permanent position on the way.

Guess what? They will all tell you the same things I'm telling you right now.

Huh...why are you trying to impress me with your more successful friends?

You are a tool of the highest order.

Good luck at Colorado bro!

[LRGhost]

stupid shit

You're an actual idiot who eats shit but think it's candy.

That made me LOL...but...I don't think that I ever typed what you quote above.

I will defecate in your mouth.

[jbagelboy]

Only on TLS could a thread about raw employment data become a shit-trashfest about legalia.

Shut the fuck up and take your shit to the lounge or at minimum another choosing board, please.

ETA: also I'd like to point out, the post above me was literally on the subject of defection, i.e. Shit.

[cotiger]

Cornell is up: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm

57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%

[04102014]

Cornell is up: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm

57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%

Impressive.

[lawschool22]

Cornell is up: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm

57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%

Nicely done, Cornell.

[vicpin5190]

Post removed.

[lawschool22]

Overall these numbers look pretty solid and promising for the T14 (minus Gtown). Especially since this is for a huge graduating class.

[lawschool22]

Cornell is up: http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm

57.5 + 10.9 = 68.4%

Impressive.

That makes me feel a little more comfortable seeing that, though the weight of paying sticker (presumed, not verified that this is the case yet) still feels quite heavy.

Do you have any other options in the T14 w/ scholarships? I wouldn't feel comfortable paying sticker at Cornell either...

[ZGr88n]

Overall these numbers look pretty solid and promising for the T14 (minus Gtown). Especially since this is for a huge graduating class.

Michigan is killing me with this wait.