Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25) Forum

[Kurst]

Awesome chart dude.

Thanks. More schools:

[JusticeHarlan]

lol @ ASU

[KevinP]

Awesome chart dude.

Thanks. More schools:

[img]awesome%20graph[/img]

Thanks for the graph! I really, really hope C/O 2011 had it the worst and things are looking up from there.

[2014]

Didn't expect USC to be noticeably ahead of UCLA but I'm guessing class size plays a role.

[laxbrah420]

Lol t6 or t10. Also lol discounting t18

[rayiner]

Lol t6 or t10. Also lol discounting t18

T6 is ridiculous and unsupportable NYU trolling. T10 is ridiculous and unsupportable UVA/Michigan trolling. Discounting T18 is ridiculous and unsupportable GULC trolling.

[dkb17xzx]

I thought Texas was safe.... So 0L question here: If a little under 35% account for Fed clerkships + firms, what happens to other 65%? Would this be shit law, govt., etc?


Thanks a ton for posting this.

[rayiner]

I thought Texas was safe.... So 0L question here: If a little under 35% account for Fed clerkships + firms, what happens to other 65%? Would this be shit law, govt., etc?


Thanks a ton for posting this.

[Greenandgold]

I thought Texas was safe.... So 0L question here: If a little under 35% account for Fed clerkships + firms, what happens to other 65%? Would this be shit law, govt., etc?


Thanks a ton for posting this.

Amazing chart. Columbia and Penn are looking fantastic.

ETA: why is academic included in this? In tons of other threads I've seen people refer to academic placement in the ABA data as a positive thing. Not that it should be, just wondering what the reasoning is behind viewing it negatively.

[rayiner]

ETA: why is academic included in this? In tons of other threads I've seen people refer to academic placement in the ABA data as a positive thing. Not that it should be, just wondering what the reasoning is behind viewing it negatively.

Two reasons:
1) Academic placement includes both high school teachers and tenure-track law professors, as well as positions like "director of career services" at low-ranked schools which our CSO posts on Symplicity;
2) At least outside of HYS, most of the tenure-track law professors will be doing a clerkship right after law school, not jumping directly into teaching.

I'm open to arguments that the academia placement should be reevaluated, but just like the "business/industry" category, there is reason to be skeptical. If you look through Michigan's list of placements in the last three years, I see 2-4 legitimate academic positions: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx. Others include things like the Michigan Law Library. The academic category has increased from 1 in C/O 2009 to 9 in C/O 2011. Harvard, meanwhile, lists just 4-6.

[Robespierre]

Rayiner, what does "N <50" mean after small firms? You're not treating everyone in a firm of less than 50 lawyers as unemployed, are you? Thanks in advance, and great work.

[de5igual]

Rayiner, what does "N <50" mean after small firms? You're not treating everyone in a firm of less than 50 lawyers as unemployed, are you? Thanks in advance, and great work.

I think what Rayiner meant was un-/under-employed.

[dingbat]

Rayiner, what does "N <50" mean after small firms? You're not treating everyone in a firm of less than 50 lawyers as unemployed, are you? Thanks in advance, and great work.

The graph should probably be titled underemployment
Again, like in all matters, one should actually review the data.

For example, Business/industry is not all bad (eg many from Harvard go into consulting), but should be viewed sceptically as these are wide catch-all categories. At a TTT, these are almost all bad, but then, some local schools may have unique placement situations.
Someone recently argued with me that in their market there are many firms of 2-10 lawyers, so that category isn't as dire as it may be in a big market.
Likewise some schools feed into local industries (eg UConn feeds a lot into the local insurance companies)
How many are legit jobs is difficult to estimate even if you know the market.
So again, don't just look at a graph and assume the best/worst, but think about your target school and that local market

But, coming out of a T14, one would expect to end up at a big firm, not a small firm

[rayiner]

Rayiner, what does "N <50" mean after small firms? You're not treating everyone in a firm of less than 50 lawyers as unemployed, are you? Thanks in advance, and great work.

I think what Rayiner meant was un-/under-employed.

Fix't.

[dingbat]

Rayiner, what does "N <50" mean after small firms? You're not treating everyone in a firm of less than 50 lawyers as unemployed, are you? Thanks in advance, and great work.

I think what Rayiner meant was un-/under-employed.

Fix't.

I think this is great, but could I please ask you to expand it to the T30?
Merci beaucoup

[manofjustice]

Do you want to know what these Long Term, Full Time, Bar Required school-funded jobs are like? Check this out...it could give us some indication. TL;DR: See the sentence in bold.


From: Dean Paul Schiff Berman <pberman@law.gwu.edu>
Subject: Adjustments to P2P Program
Date: June 19, 2012 9:14:12 AM PDT

Dear P2P Fellows,

I know that most of you are deeply immersed in Bar prep right now, but I wanted to reach out to you to discuss your job search as well as some necessary adjustments to the Pathways to Practice (P2P) Program in which you are currently enrolled.

As you know, the purpose of the Program is to provide some financial support in those first crucial months out in the job market when you are still waiting to be admitted to a Bar and may need volunteer opportunities in order to build your networks and get your first paid law work. To that end, I note that the support is only available to those who are actively working in P2P placements and who are regularly in contact with our Career Office to take the steps necessary to find paid work. Such regular contact must, at a minimum, include a monthly meeting (by phone or in person) beginning in August. You should know that I have recently hired a new head of our Career Office, Abe Pollack, and he is dynamic, energized, and laser-focused on getting each and every one of you some paying law job between now and December. He and our career counselors are 100 percent committed to working with you, and if you encounter any difficulties in your work with your counselor, please contact Abe as soon as possible so we can make sure you remain on track.

Also, I have now heard several anecdotal reports of graduates turning down paying work so that they can remain in the Pathways Program and hopefully find more desirable work later. This is not how the Program is intended to be used. You should jump at any paying legal work opportunity, and if it's not your ideal position, then use it as a launchpad for your next search. In order to make sure both that the incentives are properly aligned and that we can continue to fund the Program for the many students who have enrolled, <<<we will be adjusting the payments from $15 per hour to $10 per hour beginning December 1. The new funding amount will remain in place from December 1 until you have been in the Program for a full year, at which time your enrollment in the Program will end>>>. However, it is my sincere hope that all of you will have found employment by then (or, preferably, far earlier). My advice is the same as always: follow every lead, get out in the world and meet as many people as you can at Bar events, trade association meetings, and so on, use any network you can find to make contacts, and follow up on any contacts you make. And do twice as much as expected of you in your P2P placement so people will notice you and want to hire you permanently or recommend you to others. I know it is an historically difficult job market, but we are here to help you navigate through this transition period.

My very best to each of you.

Paul Schiff Berman
Dean and Robert Kramer Research Professor of Law
The George Washington University Law School


How ya like them apples?

[manofjustice]

P.S. It's been said Dean Berman makes 400 grand a year. What is that per hour?

[justonemoregame]

Yes, but when a Dean gets a raise, expenditures per student go up, thus increasing a school's preftige. Seriously though, holy shit.

And Rayiner, thanks for all your work, it's very helpful.

[grimfan]

Do you want to know what these Long Term, Full Time, Bar Required school-funded jobs are like? Check this out...it could give us some indication. TL;DR: See the sentence in bold.


From: Dean Paul Schiff Berman <pberman@law.gwu.edu>
Subject: Adjustments to P2P Program
Date: June 19, 2012 9:14:12 AM PDT

Dear P2P Fellows,

I know that most of you are deeply immersed in Bar prep right now, but I wanted to reach out to you to discuss your job search as well as some necessary adjustments to the Pathways to Practice (P2P) Program in which you are currently enrolled.

As you know, the purpose of the Program is to provide some financial support in those first crucial months out in the job market when you are still waiting to be admitted to a Bar and may need volunteer opportunities in order to build your networks and get your first paid law work. To that end, I note that the support is only available to those who are actively working in P2P placements and who are regularly in contact with our Career Office to take the steps necessary to find paid work. Such regular contact must, at a minimum, include a monthly meeting (by phone or in person) beginning in August. You should know that I have recently hired a new head of our Career Office, Abe Pollack, and he is dynamic, energized, and laser-focused on getting each and every one of you some paying law job between now and December. He and our career counselors are 100 percent committed to working with you, and if you encounter any difficulties in your work with your counselor, please contact Abe as soon as possible so we can make sure you remain on track.

Also, I have now heard several anecdotal reports of graduates turning down paying work so that they can remain in the Pathways Program and hopefully find more desirable work later. This is not how the Program is intended to be used. You should jump at any paying legal work opportunity, and if it's not your ideal position, then use it as a launchpad for your next search. In order to make sure both that the incentives are properly aligned and that we can continue to fund the Program for the many students who have enrolled, <<<we will be adjusting the payments from $15 per hour to $10 per hour beginning December 1. The new funding amount will remain in place from December 1 until you have been in the Program for a full year, at which time your enrollment in the Program will end>>>. However, it is my sincere hope that all of you will have found employment by then (or, preferably, far earlier). My advice is the same as always: follow every lead, get out in the world and meet as many people as you can at Bar events, trade association meetings, and so on, use any network you can find to make contacts, and follow up on any contacts you make. And do twice as much as expected of you in your P2P placement so people will notice you and want to hire you permanently or recommend you to others. I know it is an historically difficult job market, but we are here to help you navigate through this transition period.

My very best to each of you.

Paul Schiff Berman
Dean and Robert Kramer Research Professor of Law
The George Washington University Law School


How ya like them apples?

Where'd you find this gem?

[manofjustice]

Do you want to know what these Long Term, Full Time, Bar Required school-funded jobs are like? Check this out...it could give us some indication. TL;DR: See the sentence in bold.


From: Dean Paul Schiff Berman <pberman@law.gwu.edu>
Subject: Adjustments to P2P Program
Date: June 19, 2012 9:14:12 AM PDT

Dear P2P Fellows,

I know that most of you are deeply immersed in Bar prep right now, but I wanted to reach out to you to discuss your job search as well as some necessary adjustments to the Pathways to Practice (P2P) Program in which you are currently enrolled.

As you know, the purpose of the Program is to provide some financial support in those first crucial months out in the job market when you are still waiting to be admitted to a Bar and may need volunteer opportunities in order to build your networks and get your first paid law work. To that end, I note that the support is only available to those who are actively working in P2P placements and who are regularly in contact with our Career Office to take the steps necessary to find paid work. Such regular contact must, at a minimum, include a monthly meeting (by phone or in person) beginning in August. You should know that I have recently hired a new head of our Career Office, Abe Pollack, and he is dynamic, energized, and laser-focused on getting each and every one of you some paying law job between now and December. He and our career counselors are 100 percent committed to working with you, and if you encounter any difficulties in your work with your counselor, please contact Abe as soon as possible so we can make sure you remain on track.

Also, I have now heard several anecdotal reports of graduates turning down paying work so that they can remain in the Pathways Program and hopefully find more desirable work later. This is not how the Program is intended to be used. You should jump at any paying legal work opportunity, and if it's not your ideal position, then use it as a launchpad for your next search. In order to make sure both that the incentives are properly aligned and that we can continue to fund the Program for the many students who have enrolled, <<<we will be adjusting the payments from $15 per hour to $10 per hour beginning December 1. The new funding amount will remain in place from December 1 until you have been in the Program for a full year, at which time your enrollment in the Program will end>>>. However, it is my sincere hope that all of you will have found employment by then (or, preferably, far earlier). My advice is the same as always: follow every lead, get out in the world and meet as many people as you can at Bar events, trade association meetings, and so on, use any network you can find to make contacts, and follow up on any contacts you make. And do twice as much as expected of you in your P2P placement so people will notice you and want to hire you permanently or recommend you to others. I know it is an historically difficult job market, but we are here to help you navigate through this transition period.

My very best to each of you.

Paul Schiff Berman
Dean and Robert Kramer Research Professor of Law
The George Washington University Law School


How ya like them apples?

Where'd you find this gem?

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/ and http://abovethelaw.com

We need to have ourselves a good old fashioned Law School French Revolution.

[Mr. Somebody]

Holy shit. And he reversed the decision and put it back at $15. Epic!

[manofjustice]

Holy shit. And he reversed the decision and put it back at $15. Epic!

Still goes to show you what these Long term, Full time, Bar required jobs are, and why they need to be excluded from the 9 month employment rate in the Us News and World Report ranking formula.

[top30man]

Holy shit. And he reversed the decision and put it back at $15. Epic!

Awesome. Now they can all afford once again to pay off their loans.

[splitsplat]

Holy shit. And he reversed the decision and put it back at $15. Epic!

Awesome. Now they can all afford once again to pay off their loans.

I see what you did there.

[dkb17xzx]

I thought Texas was safe.... So 0L question here: If a little under 35% account for Fed clerkships + firms, what happens to other 65%? Would this be shit law, govt., etc?


Thanks a ton for posting this.

thanks again....very helpful