All non tier 1 people, why are you going to law school? Forum

[romothesavior]

I respect your steadfastness in this argument, ect. But it is a losing battle. If you want PI, the real reason to go lower rank (and the only reason IMO) is to lower the cost/debt, because lets face it, you are gonna be broke. If you can get a full ride to Yale, you would do it, right? But if the highest ranked school you can pull is Penn at sticker or William and Mary full ride, you would have a decision to make.

So my question to TLS is this, based on the real income bands in the market and your personal preferences:

Income 40-60k How much debt would be okay with you?
Income 80-110k Same?
Income $160+ Same?

Really an impossible question to answer because there is almost no way of knowing what you are going to make starting out as a 0L. A better way to think about it is to realize that unless you go to an elite school, 40-60k starting is a substantial possibility. Because of this reality, you should base your answer around this consideration. For me, I am paying about as much as I would be willing to pay for a non-T10 (I'm looking at 85-90k, maybe less if I get a paid job next summer).

Also, there is an alternative argument to be made about going to a lower ranked school for less if you want to go into PI. Because of 10 year IBR, I'd go to the highest school I got into. If you make 10 years of repayment on a 30-40k salary, then the difference between $200,000 in debt and $60,000 isn't at all substantial (it might even be 0) because you will pay the same amount back and then have it cleared. Using your example, I'd take Penn at sticker over W&M with a full scholly in a heartbeat. With 10-year IBR, I'd say give me the better job prospects any day. Of course, this argument assumes IBR will be around, but there is little to suggest it is going anywhere or that people who go to school with assumptions of IBR will get screwed out of it.

[keg411]

romo, just so you know, I totally agree with the point of NOT spending 6 figures on anything below T14 (or a strong regional in your desired market; like UCLA/TX/Vandy). When I talk about T2's/low T1's, I'm thinking state schools on scholarships and debt under $100k.

Plus, I'm lucky to be in the position where I may have the opportunity to trade it in for T13 sticker which I will likely take, so I'm definitely not advocating T2 (or low T1 for that matter) over T13.

[Patriot1208]

I agree with Romo and Patriot on just about everything. I also enjoy nice cars.

Continue.

[JPrezy87]

Romo, I know you go to WUSTL, but seriously don't recommend people go there at sticker over a T2 state school in their region

I don't.

I just recommend to people that they not go to law school. if they don't take that advice, I try to minimize their losses. and if they won't take that advice, their own grave.

dude...you go to law school..and from what Ive read of your posts you plan on graduating...how you gonna tell other people not to go to law school?

[joemoviebuff]

Romo, I know you go to WUSTL, but seriously don't recommend people go there at sticker over a T2 state school in their region

I don't.

I just recommend to people that they not go to law school. if they don't take that advice, I try to minimize their losses. and if they won't take that advice, their own grave.

dude...you go to law school..and from what Ive read of your posts you plan on graduating...how you gonna tell other people not to go to law school?

This thing called the LSAT told me that attacking the proponent of a claim rather than the claim itself is a logical fallacy.

All smartassery aside, maybe he was just in too deep and kept going, maybe knowing what he knows now if he could go back and do it again he wouldn't go to law school. Whatever the reason, it's not totally ridiculous that as a law student he advises others not to attend.

[JPrezy87]

Romo, I know you go to WUSTL, but seriously don't recommend people go there at sticker over a T2 state school in their region

I don't.

dude...you go to law school..and from what Ive read of your posts you plan on graduating...how you gonna tell other people not to go to law school?

This thing called the LSAT told me that attacking the proponent of a claim rather than the claim itself is a logical fallacy.

All smartassery aside, maybe he was just in too deep and kept going, maybe knowing what he knows now if he could go back and do it again he wouldn't go to law school. Whatever the reason, it's not totally ridiculous that as a law student he advises others not to attend.

First of all...no need for the smug sarcasm sir....I was just pointing out what I saw as a glaring contradiction about gwoorbust...second of all...if he hates law school so passionately....why doesn't he just drop out ASAP and go back to the cushy white collar job he allegedley had before all of this? ...i mean...the less loan debt accumulated the better .

[JPrezy87]

Romo, I know you go to WUSTL, but seriously don't recommend people go there at sticker over a T2 state school in their region

I don't.

dude...you go to law school..and from what Ive read of your posts you plan on graduating...how you gonna tell other people not to go to law school?

This thing called the LSAT told me that attacking the proponent of a claim rather than the claim itself is a logical fallacy.

All smartassery aside, maybe he was just in too deep and kept going, maybe knowing what he knows now if he could go back and do it again he wouldn't go to law school. Whatever the reason, it's not totally ridiculous that as a law student he advises others not to attend.

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

[joemoviebuff]

I think he'd have to be stupid to think the latter. With 40,000 or so law grads a year (I think that number's right), and allowing a very generous number of say 10 people his cautions actually dissuade from attending law school, that would leave 39,990 people left. Not to mention that here on the interwebs where he has his audience, chances are that a hefty chunk of those people he would persuade to leave/not go wouldn't be going to his same school, or even in the same region as him.

I'll leave it up to him to come back here and explain himself (not that I think that's necessary), but whatever reason he has I expect it's less sinister than you might think. Again, there's plenty of scenarios where it's reasonable for a current law student to advise against going to law school.

[gwuorbust]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

I loled when I stopped in here and saw my name being dropped. but seriously, I do not see people here as competition. I'm getting a legal aid internship this summer so that I can learn the ropes of how to actually practice as a lawyer. since I got hit with median grades, I'm essentially locked out of big and midlaw. my plan has narrowed to:

grow company --> invest money into starting solo law firm --> operate company and law firm.

back on topic:

the reason I so heavily suggest people reconsider law school is threefold:

1. Option limiting. seriously, if I didn't have my company I feel like I would be completely limited to the practice of the law now. this is both because of the debt and the flight risk that employer perceive you as.

2. Debt load. seriously, it is a lot of debt. I would be scared of my debt if I didn't have options. I would be terrified.

3. Law School is Terrible. seriously, it is awful. I hate it. it is miserable and not a fun experience.

4. There are not enough jobs!!! 50k graduates and 25k jobs per year. that math does not add up.


to sum up: getting a law degree may seem like a low risk option. in reality it is high risk with low returns. IMO, that is not a smart investment. just sayin'.

[JPrezy87]

I think he'd have to be stupid to think the latter. With 40,000 or so law grads a year (I think that number's right), and allowing a very generous number of say 10 people his cautions actually dissuade from attending law school, that would leave 39,990 people left.

Yea.... we human beings have such a great track record of acting rationally... don't we?

WOA kid...stop looking at people's actions from the standpoint of logic...and instead start looking at peoples actions as instead being driven by emotion and self-interest..you'll understand the world alot better .

[JPrezy87]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

I loled when I stopped in here and saw my name being dropped. but seriously, I do not see people here as competition. I'm getting a legal aid internship this summer so that I can learn the ropes of how to actually practice as a lawyer. .

thanks for making it plain .

[beach_terror]

I really doubt 15% of temple is getting biglaw. And at least 25% are getting biglaw out of wustl.

Top 15% have got 2L SA offers here at Villanova

[gwuorbust]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

I loled when I stopped in here and saw my name being dropped. but seriously, I do not see people here as competition. I'm getting a legal aid internship this summer so that I can learn the ropes of how to actually practice as a lawyer. .

thanks for making it plain .

yes, because I am of the belief that this one random person on the internet is going to be my competition 6 years from now when I'm starting a law firm in Miami. come on buddy, use your brain. you've been here for like 5 days and are a 0L. When you have experienced the pains of law school and have read the same story hundreds of times from people highly qualified but unable to find jobs..then you can talk.

but feel free to ignore our advice and jump right in like every other lemming. I'm sure you will find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[Grizz]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

lololololololololololololololololol

[Stanford4Me]

I'm in law school, and love it, and constantly tell my friends to reconsider their plans to go to law school.

[JPrezy87]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

I loled when I stopped in here and saw my name being dropped. but seriously, I do not see people here as competition. I'm getting a legal aid internship this summer so that I can learn the ropes of how to actually practice as a lawyer. .

thanks for making it plain .

When you have experienced the pains of law school and have read the same story hundreds of times from people highly qualified but unable to find jobs..then you can talk.
.

Err...pains of law school? excuse me? you think the educational path to any professional career (business school, pharmacy school, medical school, etc.) is going to be free of trials and tribulations? You don't think students of, let's say, pharmacy school, ever have spent sleepless nights studying vast barely comprehensible material and sweating their balls off over whether they're gonna pass a final? You don't hink business school students are worried about their futures in a shit job market? Why don't you just tell people on this board to give up on a professional career (law, medical, or otherwise) altogether? Life is tough and grueling some times, and if you're not willing to go through them and persevere, well....

[JPrezy87]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

lololololololololololololololololol

aww what you do that for???

[JazzOne]

re: this discussion on women and money...

I saw a TV show one time where they tested this. They gave women pictures of guys with some details about them, including mediocre salaries and mediocre job titles and asked them to rate their physical attractiveness from 1-10. They compiled that data, and then did the same test but switched out only the salaries and job titles with 6-figure salaries and better job titles. Across the board, the men were rated higher for physical attractiveness with the better job titles/salaries than with the mediocre ones, and in some cases, the worse looking guys rated higher for physical attractiveness than the objectively better looking guys if they had higher salaries.

IIRC, I think they also did the same test for men, and their opinions of the women's attractiveness didn't change a whole lot based on the numbers.

Moral of the story: women are more likely to find a man physically attractive (not just a better potential mate, but actually more physically attractive) if they have money than without.

I could be misremembering this survey and I apologize if I am. I'll try to see if I can find the segment. Pretty interesting stuff.

I saw the same show, and it was interesting. Nonetheless, I doubt TV producers give a damn about methodology or statistical analysis. Still, it should be pretty obvious that many women dig money. How else would guys like Donald Trump bring a bombshell to some stupid event? Hugh Heffner looks like a fucking troll. Any woman who claims to be attracted to him is a gold-digging whore.

[JPrezy87]

And....you also have to question his underlying motives. Why exactly is gwoorbust telling prospective 1Ls not to go to law school...is it because he feels he's doing it for their own good...or is he doing it because he sees them as competition?

I loled when I stopped in here and saw my name being dropped. but seriously, I do not see people here as competition. I'm getting a legal aid internship this summer so that I can learn the ropes of how to actually practice as a lawyer. .

thanks for making it plain .

but feel free to ignore our advice and jump right in like every other lemming. I'm sure you will find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Excuse me "Our".?!..you're the only cat on this board who's saying "Don't go to law school period!" (and has yet to drop out of law school and go back to his old job no less!)..I mean guys like Radlaw are saying only go to an elite or highly ranked law school...but you're saying the very instituion of law school itself is a waste of time...big difference .

and as far as taking your advice...

[gwuorbust]

Excuse me "Our".?!..you're the only cat on this board who's saying "Don't go to law school period!" (and has yet to drop out of law school and go back to his old job no less!)..I mean guys like Radlaw are saying only go to an elite or highly ranked law school...but you're saying the very instituion of law school itself is a waste of time...big difference .

and as far as taking your advice...

yeah I recommend that cause I think its terrible. I try to explain to people that it's not nearly as cool and snazzy as its made out to be. BUT: I never said law school is always a waste (though it can be a huge waste). so if people choose to go then there should be a calculation involved between the debt and the job opportunities. see http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... tart=12775 for more explanation.

[romothesavior]

you're the only cat on this board who's saying "Don't go to law school period!"

You haven't met mtal, I take it.

[JPrezy87]

you're the only cat on this board who's saying "Don't go to law school period!"

You haven't met mtal, I take it.

well he's become such a nuissance that I refuse to even acknowledge him .

[JPrezy87]

I'm in law school, and love it, and constantly tell my friends to reconsider their plans to go to law school.

how come?

[FeelTheHeat]

To answer a previous question, if I start off at $40k to $60k, which I would expect to make, I would be comfortable with those numbers as my total debt, which it will be.

[kublaikahn]

To answer a previous question, if I start off at $40k to $60k, which I would expect to make, I would be comfortable with those numbers as my total debt, which it will be.

Okay, Question 2. Does the looming debt (and stips on schollies for that matter) push one to better performance?

My answer- Hell yes it does.