New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Phillygirl19004]

Cravath used to be an elite firm with a reputation for handling the most complex deals and cases. It had a distinctive model for associate development, lock step compensation, and promoted from within. Until maybe ten years ago in NY biglaw, there was Wachtell, then Cravath, then S&C and DPW.

Now its Wachtell, then all of Cravath, S&C, DPW in the same tier. Cravath may still have the shiny name recognition, but it doesn't have a practice which distinguishes it from others. Firms change -- Sherman & Sterling used to be a top international business firm, but is now floundering. Cravath is a great outcome if that's what someone wants, but it is no longer a "better" outcome than others.

[Anonymous User]

the pro Harvard and cravath trolling has been hilarious to read

Is dating a thing in biglaw? How do people have time for it? Is it bad to date ppl from the firm?

dating people in general is of course a thing, but are you anticipating wanting to date someone at your firm without even being there yet or having a specific person in mind? I'll just say it's much easier to date someone outside of the firm not just for the formal work reasons but also because you meet many more people outside of work than at work. Same thing with dating people at your law school. It is a thing but probably easier to date someone outside

[Anonymous User]

the pro Harvard and cravath trolling has been hilarious to read

Is dating a thing in biglaw? How do people have time for it? Is it bad to date ppl from the firm?

dating people in general is of course a thing, but are you anticipating wanting to date someone at your firm without even being there yet or having a specific person in mind? I'll just say it's much easier to date someone outside of the firm not just for the formal work reasons but also because you meet many more people outside of work than at work. Same thing with dating people at your law school. It is a thing but probably easier to date someone outside

The pro Harvard and Cravath trolling kind of reminds me of that cliche in the movies where like the King or whatever has clearly lost their power and they keep insisting that their in charge here and everything is under control as like the enemy are at the gates. Only difference here is that Harvard and Cravath are still a great law school and firm respectively, so idk why you would embarrass yourself and tie yourself into knots over it.

Anyways per the dating question, anecdotally I've seen the best relationships among biglaw lawyers when they are at different firms and do different jobs. As in different firms and one does corporate and one does litigation—I guess it makes for more interesting convos and supplemental strengths, idk. I can imagine that if you do lit or corporate all day it may be exhausting to get home and deal with another associate in that same group. Maybe someone else has a theory on that.

Edit: I'll also add that my anecdote is for both same-sex and straight couples and also that none of them are married. Idk how healthy marriages work both anecdotally and personally.

[Anonymous User]

You'd be surprised, actually. I graduated HLS way above magna cum laude cutoff but wasn't interested in lit so never pursued a clerkship. I know several others who graduated magna who also went to do corp and passed on clerkships, including someone who was rank #2-10 of the whole class.

How do you have time to post on TLS when WLRK keeps you all billing 3k hours a year

she could be at cravath

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

[Anonymous User]

At northwestern, the GPA requires for Cravath and Kirkland were the same. I didn't believe it until pointed out by someone else bc I hadn't even thought to bid on lofty Cravath. But, it's true. Possibly excluding KE NY but still, means the caliber of Cravath hires are the same as decent Chi and DC firms.

[Anonymous User]

How do you have time to post on TLS when WLRK keeps you all billing 3k hours a year

she could be at cravath

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

They've lost a handful of partners over 5 years. Not very devastating. Plus their revenues continue to go up (just broke 1 billion iirc). Boies Schiller this ain't. In any case, if your goal is to maximize profit as a partner, maybe you're better off at Kirkland or PW. If your work isn't defined by just your paycheck, your calculation is different. I'm sure Cravath would rather have people there who are loyal to the brand, and would prefer to have the money go toward the firm rather than up a salary from 6 million to 9 million.

The gestalt of this thread seems to be that Cravath has lost its perch. You have a lot of work to do spreading the word, because outside of TLS, associates, law firm partners, judges, profs, the media, and rankings all disagree with you.

[Anonymous User]

she could be at cravath

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

They've lost a handful of partners over 5 years. Not very devastating. Plus their revenues continue to go up (just broke 1 billion iirc). Boies Schiller this ain't. In any case, if your goal is to maximize profit as a partner, maybe you're better off at Kirkland or PW. If your work isn't defined by just your paycheck, your calculation is different. I'm sure Cravath would rather have people there who are loyal to the brand, and would prefer to have the money go toward the firm rather than up a salary from 6 million to 9 million.

The gestalt of this thread seems to be that Cravath has lost its perch. You have a lot of work to do spreading the word, because outside of TLS, associates, law firm partners, judges, profs, the media, and rankings all disagree with you.

Not "just" a handful of partners. CSM has lost a number of dealmakers, including the head of their bank regulatory practice a little under a week ago. Cravath has certainly lost its perch from the very tippy top, but it hasn't fallen down completely. Cravath has just fallen down a peg, maybe two.

[jbagelboy]

“Loyal to the brand”? Jfc

[Anonymous User]

Did I just read the words "If your work isn't defined by just your paycheck"?

[Anonymous User]

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

They've lost a handful of partners over 5 years. Not very devastating. Plus their revenues continue to go up (just broke 1 billion iirc). Boies Schiller this ain't. In any case, if your goal is to maximize profit as a partner, maybe you're better off at Kirkland or PW. If your work isn't defined by just your paycheck, your calculation is different. I'm sure Cravath would rather have people there who are loyal to the brand, and would prefer to have the money go toward the firm rather than up a salary from 6 million to 9 million.

The gestalt of this thread seems to be that Cravath has lost its perch. You have a lot of work to do spreading the word, because outside of TLS, associates, law firm partners, judges, profs, the media, and rankings all disagree with you.

Not "just" a handful of partners. CSM has lost a number of dealmakers, including the head of their bank regulatory practice a little under a week ago. Cravath has certainly lost its perch from the very tippy top, but it hasn't fallen down completely. Cravath has just fallen down a peg, maybe two.

I'll start to buy it when I see a decline in revenue, lots of associates leaving, a fall in the rank, etc. The warning signs, in other words. After all, WLRK lost a prominent partner not too long ago. But a few partners leaving to chase a higher salary doesn't suggest Cravath is falling. In fact, I think it's pretty funny that it's so uncommon that it made news

[Anonymous User]

How do you have time to post on TLS when WLRK keeps you all billing 3k hours a year

she could be at cravath

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

There are Penn students who go to CSM with more like 3.5-3.6. None of these New York firms are all that competitive from Penn, especially for corporate. But Penn does *terribly* at placing in DC. – A current Penn student

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Vault is biased towards name recognition. Firms that have more national presence (eg Latham, KE, JD) get a boost. Firms that only have a few offices and/or aren't well known in other markets get shafted. This is also why above market boutiques get ranked like 80, or why eg Cahill is not even a V50 when it should be at least a V20.

To get back on topic, same laymen's bias is why ppl have a hard time accepting that Chicago is now the leader for elite outcomes.

Prestige is biased towards name recognition. It’s hard to have prestige if no one knows you. And who do people know the best? The firms that pay the most and have the best clients over the course of decades. High gpa requirements don’t mean much (see Cleary and the small litigation firms) nor does restricting recruiting to only certain schools (see Freshfields). Money talks, as witnessed by Kirkland over the last two decades and Wachtell over the last four decades. But it takes more than a few decades to create a truly deeply held reputation and that’s why Cravath can still peak in the minds of Vault survey takers. That being said, Wachtell has been wise to pay associates top dollar. That, along with top PPP, keeps them prestigious in the minds of associates despite the small size and shorter lifespan.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

They've lost a handful of partners over 5 years. Not very devastating. Plus their revenues continue to go up (just broke 1 billion iirc). Boies Schiller this ain't. In any case, if your goal is to maximize profit as a partner, maybe you're better off at Kirkland or PW. If your work isn't defined by just your paycheck, your calculation is different. I'm sure Cravath would rather have people there who are loyal to the brand, and would prefer to have the money go toward the firm rather than up a salary from 6 million to 9 million.

The gestalt of this thread seems to be that Cravath has lost its perch. You have a lot of work to do spreading the word, because outside of TLS, associates, law firm partners, judges, profs, the media, and rankings all disagree with you.

Not "just" a handful of partners. CSM has lost a number of dealmakers, including the head of their bank regulatory practice a little under a week ago. Cravath has certainly lost its perch from the very tippy top, but it hasn't fallen down completely. Cravath has just fallen down a peg, maybe two.

I'll start to buy it when I see a decline in revenue, lots of associates leaving, a fall in the rank, etc. The warning signs, in other words. After all, WLRK lost a prominent partner not too long ago. But a few partners leaving to chase a higher salary doesn't suggest Cravath is falling. In fact, I think it's pretty funny that it's so uncommon that it made news

Prominent how

[Anonymous User]

she could be at cravath

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

There are Penn students who go to CSM with more like 3.5-3.6. None of these New York firms are all that competitive from Penn, especially for corporate. But Penn does *terribly* at placing in DC. – A current Penn student

incoming Penn 1L here - could you please elaborate on Penn's terrible DC placement?

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Vault is biased towards name recognition. Firms that have more national presence (eg Latham, KE, JD) get a boost. Firms that only have a few offices and/or aren't well known in other markets get shafted. This is also why above market boutiques get ranked like 80, or why eg Cahill is not even a V50 when it should be at least a V20.

To get back on topic, same laymen's bias is why ppl have a hard time accepting that Chicago is now the leader for elite outcomes.

Prestige is biased towards name recognition. It’s hard to have prestige if no one knows you. And who do people know the best? The firms that pay the most and have the best clients over the course of decades. High gpa requirements don’t mean much (see Cleary and the small litigation firms) nor does restricting recruiting to only certain schools (see Freshfields). Money talks, as witnessed by Kirkland over the last two decades and Wachtell over the last four decades. But it takes more than a few decades to create a truly deeply held reputation and that’s why Cravath can still peak in the minds of Vault survey takers. That being said, Wachtell has been wise to pay associates top dollar. That, along with top PPP, keeps them prestigious in the minds of associates despite the small size and shorter lifespan.

You mean 20,000 associates?

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Vault is biased towards name recognition. Firms that have more national presence (eg Latham, KE, JD) get a boost. Firms that only have a few offices and/or aren't well known in other markets get shafted. This is also why above market boutiques get ranked like 80, or why eg Cahill is not even a V50 when it should be at least a V20.

To get back on topic, same laymen's bias is why ppl have a hard time accepting that Chicago is now the leader for elite outcomes.

Prestige is biased towards name recognition. It’s hard to have prestige if no one knows you. And who do people know the best? The firms that pay the most and have the best clients over the course of decades. High gpa requirements don’t mean much (see Cleary and the small litigation firms) nor does restricting recruiting to only certain schools (see Freshfields). Money talks, as witnessed by Kirkland over the last two decades and Wachtell over the last four decades. But it takes more than a few decades to create a truly deeply held reputation and that’s why Cravath can still peak in the minds of Vault survey takers. That being said, Wachtell has been wise to pay associates top dollar. That, along with top PPP, keeps them prestigious in the minds of associates despite the small size and shorter lifespan.

This is such a supremely silly comment. It's prestigious that associates in Ohio are more familiar with your firm that pays below market and objectively doesn't get "the best clients"? Do you really actually think that Cravath is a better firm than Wachtell? I just listed firms that pay more than other firms yet are ranked below them, so your assertion that money talks is demonstrably false. Money doesn't "talk" if your language is flawed.

You must be a 1L or not even. Everyone actually in the industry knows Vault is flawed (but still useful) and Chambers is a better metric, or simply knows which firms are under/over valued.

[Anonymous User]

If I were magna at HLS I probably would be very disappointed if I ended up at CSW

Yeah if you are top 1-2% at HLS and you decline to clerk, then I hope you either ended up at WLRK or are just a complete genius. Otherwise, you wasted way too much time studying for no benefit. WLRK is literally the only corporate firm that is selective and prestigious in the same way as litigation boutiques or DC appellate practices, which is what most top students are gunning for in my experience. Like top 1/3 at Penn can get you corporate at Cravath.

The bulk of this is right but the Penn thing is wrong lol

Penn thing is absolutely correct as of 2022 OCI

Penn has no problem placing students in top NYC biglaw firms. For starters, CSM has lost a lot of its prestige (see devestating outflow of partners to other biglaw firms in recent years). Cravath is still competitive, but it is not blindingly hard to reach like it used to be as there are Penn students who have headed to CSM with mid 3.7-3.8 GPAs. A 3.8+ GPA is almost required for WLRK for Penn students. About -.3 grace range for URM applicants. Penn struggles, however, a bit placing students in DC firms compared to HYSC.

There are Penn students who go to CSM with more like 3.5-3.6. None of these New York firms are all that competitive from Penn, especially for corporate. But Penn does *terribly* at placing in DC. – A current Penn student

incoming Penn 1L here - could you please elaborate on Penn's terrible DC placement?

If you have the option of going to UVA and you want to be in DC, please go there. You have zero support (and in some cases harmful interference) from OCS here unless you’re NYC/Philly.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Vault is biased towards name recognition. Firms that have more national presence (eg Latham, KE, JD) get a boost. Firms that only have a few offices and/or aren't well known in other markets get shafted. This is also why above market boutiques get ranked like 80, or why eg Cahill is not even a V50 when it should be at least a V20.

To get back on topic, same laymen's bias is why ppl have a hard time accepting that Chicago is now the leader for elite outcomes.

Prestige is biased towards name recognition. It’s hard to have prestige if no one knows you. And who do people know the best? The firms that pay the most and have the best clients over the course of decades. High gpa requirements don’t mean much (see Cleary and the small litigation firms) nor does restricting recruiting to only certain schools (see Freshfields). Money talks, as witnessed by Kirkland over the last two decades and Wachtell over the last four decades. But it takes more than a few decades to create a truly deeply held reputation and that’s why Cravath can still peak in the minds of Vault survey takers. That being said, Wachtell has been wise to pay associates top dollar. That, along with top PPP, keeps them prestigious in the minds of associates despite the small size and shorter lifespan.

This is such a supremely silly comment. It's prestigious that associates in Ohio are more familiar with your firm that pays below market and objectively doesn't get "the best clients"? Do you really actually think that Cravath is a better firm than Wachtell? I just listed firms that pay more than other firms yet are ranked below them, so your assertion that money talks is demonstrably false. Money doesn't "talk" if your language is flawed.

You must be a 1L or not even. Everyone actually in the industry knows Vault is flawed (but still useful) and Chambers is a better metric, or simply knows which firms are under/over valued.

There is some correlation between size and prestige (as measured by Vault). However, there is a direct correlation between PPP, RPL (AmLaw stats) and client prestige on a decade over decade rolling basis and Vault surveys. Don’t get me wrong, I think Cravath is hurting due to dropping out of the top ranks for PPP and RPL over the last decade. But, Cravath hasn’t dropped to Cleary levels yet and can still lean on past performance. But that is explaining why Vault is the way it is.

Should Wachtell be far and away deserving of the number one rank in associate minds? Maybe. They have higher PPP and RPL and associate pay but they are dwarfed by other firms in terms of Chambers rankings. The deal work quality is not noticeably better than any other V10 due to lean staffing. But they have cornered a narrow segment of the market and probably the associates and partners on average know more because the hours are longer. But putting any firm on a pedestal is ridiculous. Kirkland is breathing down their neck financially and there are far more partners making tens of millions per year at Kirkland than Wachtell despite that those Kirkland partners probably didn’t sacrifice quite as much of their lives to work.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

FWIW, Wachtell (or at least the partnership) isn't the richest of the V10 anymore.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

[Moneytrees]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

It literally hasn't been the compensation leader/setter though, Milbank and DPW were the firms that have set the market recently. Last time Cravath set compensation was in 2016 I believe.

[Anonymous User]

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

It literally hasn't been the compensation leader/setter though, Milbank and DPW were the firms that have set the market recently. Last time Cravath set compensation was in 2016 I believe.

I think the previous poster is not being serious

[NoLongerALurker]

I think it's fair to say that the more "specialized" you get, the less lay prestige is likely to matter in whatever your day-to-day life is. And the more time you spend at a law firm, the more "specialized" your day-to-day life becomes.

Cravath has more lay prestige than, say, DPW.
HLS has more lay prestige than Chicago.

Within the more specialized group of people you are likely to deal with, I think many would be like "HLS isn't particularly better than Chicago -- really, they're like, at par." But in the world at large people are wowed by HLS.

Meanwhile, specialized people are likely to be like "Cravath isn't better than DPW -- it's over the hump and if anything it's probably worse." And in the world at large, people are like "What's Cravath? What's DPW?".

The category of people who think HLS > Chicago is massive and will probably always be around (although they become less relevant to your day-to-day life as you advance as a lawyer, especially in a profesional sense).

The category of people who think Cravath > other V10s (namely, people who are somewhat involved in legal industry but also aren't the actual in-the-weeds people you are likely to actually care about..boomer judges or whatever): like, almost no one. And shrinking by the day.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.