Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[zman]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Can you give the school's range? I'm sure it wasn't a T20 school...

A lot of people even from t20 would take that.

[MissouriMisery]

Hello!

So what is the deadline for these ABA disclosures? Is there a reason that all of these schools released the info today? Curious to see UVA, Mich and Berkeley!

[dd235]

Can someone explain to me why these are saying “9 months after graduation”

I was under the impression that they had changed it this year to 10 months after graduation

[Hrun]

UCLA is up

https://www.law.ucla.edu/career-service ... stics.aspx

32.5% + 6.9% = 39.4%

[Hrun]

Hello!

So what is the deadline for these ABA disclosures? Is there a reason that all of these schools released the info today? Curious to see UVA, Mich and Berkeley!

On Vanderbilt's site, it says it is due on March 15. Funny that the last time I looked they posted the due date but haven't uploaded the data.

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

[JCougar]

I looked at WUSTL's quantity of 100+ people and it wasn't half of the biglaw placement. But I remain skeptical about the numbers in that category now from any school, aside from T10 or something.

I don't know of a single person in one of these jobs at my school. I don't know where everyone landed, but everyone I'm connected to on LinkedIn is partner-track.

Now if you're at a school like West Virginia and you place a lot of people into Orrick's Wheeling, WV on-shoring center, that might be a different story.

[rad lulz]

f

[cannibal ox]

Columbia: 73.2 + 4.8 = 78%
2012: 64.2 + 7.9 = 72.1%
Diff: +9 & -3.1 = +5.9%

Stanford: 48.5 + 29.4 = 77.9%
2012: 47 + 28.2 = 75.2%
Diff: +1.5 & +1.2 = +2.7%

Chicago: 62.3 + 10.2 = 72.5%
2012: 56.3 + 14.4 = 70.7%
Diff: +6 & -4.2 = +1.8%

Harvard: 54.5 + 17.0 = 71.5%
2012: 53.6 + 17.8 = 71.4%
Diff: +0.9 & -0.8 = +0.1%

Penn: 59.8 + 9.3 = 69.1%
2012: 66.7 + 10.4 = 77.1%
Diff: -6.9 & -1.1 = -8%

NYU: 58.3 + 8.8 = 67.1%
2012: 59.5 + 5.6 = 65.1%
Diff: -1.2 & +3.2 = +2%

Yale: 30.5 + 35 = 65.5%
2012: 32 + 34.7 = 66.7%
Diff: -1.5 & +0.3 = -1.2%

Northwestern: 55.6 + 7.7 = 63.3%
2012: 49.2 + 6.4 = 55.6%
Diff: +6.4 & +1.3 = +7.7%

Duke: 51.4 + 8.7 = 60.1%
2012: 51.1 + 12.9 = 64%
Diff: +0.3 & -4.2 = -3.9%

GULC: 41.4 + 5.1 = 46.5%
2012: 39.1 + 3.7 = 42.8%
Diff: +2.3 & +1.4 = +3.7%

Fordham: 34.1 + 2.5 = 36.6%
2012: 30.5 + 2.9 = 33.4%
Diff: +3.6 & -0.4 = +3.2%

Boston College: 29.6 + 4.3 = 33.9%
2012: 25.4 + 2.3 = 27.7%
Diff: +4.2 & +2 = +6.2%

Notre Dame: 28.3 + 5.4 = 33.7%
2012: 22.4 + 9.2 = 31.6%
Diff: +5.9 & -3.8 = +2.1%

WUSTL: 29 + 3.3 = 32.3%
2012: 23 + 3.3 = 26.3%
Diff: +6 & 0 = +6%

Illinois: 24.7 + 3.4 = 28.1%
2012: 22.1 + 1.9 = 24%
Diff: +2.6 & +1.5 = +4.1%

William and Mary: 21.7 + 3.7 = 25.4%
2012: 12.7 + 5.9 = 18.6%
Diff: +9 & -2.2 = +6.8%

Alabama: 12.0 + 10.2 = 22.3%
2012: 8.1 + 9.3 = 17.4%
Diff: +3.9 & +0.9 = +4.9%

Ohio State: 16.9 + 4.4 = 21.3%
2012: 10.4 + 2.7 = 13.1%
Diff: +6.5 & +1.7 = +8.2%

Washington and Lee: 16.1 + 3.5 = 19.6%
2012: 10.8 + 4.6 = 15.4%
Diff: +5.3 & -1.1 = +4.2%

Wake Forest: 13.2 + 3.1 = 16.3%
2012: 14.7 + 4.5 = 19.2%
Diff: -1.5 & -1.4 = -2.9%


Hopefully I didn't make any stupid addition/subtraction errors.

[lawschool22]

TCR is Retake Life ED Trust Fund Baby

Too be honest, TCR is to go to a school that gives you a full scholly, live with family/SO during law school to cover COL, and still get Biglaw. That way you can quit whenever you feel it's appropriate.

How many people have the ability to go to a school w/ a full scholly and also have a reasonable chance of still getting biglaw? It can't be that big of a number.

What's wrong with going to a T14 for a reasonable amount of money (which I would consider <$100k total debt at repayment to be reasonable for most T14's), working in biglaw for a few years, and then examining your options if you decide its not for you? After 2-3 years you can make a significant dent in that sub-$100k debt. You'll have some flexibility to take jobs you may not have been able to take directly out of school, but you also will have a solid school behind you for a reasonable price.

The majority of T14 grads who land biglaw and do well for a few years will have exit options. If you can graduate for a reasonable amount you'll do fine.

I agree with you that people who take out $250k+ in loans to get biglaw are taking a big risk for something they will probably hate/strongly dislike, but it's not the only option.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Economy in Colorado may be improving too. Small sample size but full time JD required at CU increased to 70%. http://www.colorado.edu/law/sites/defau ... 8-2014.pdf

Will await DU and hope their numbers went up too. Anecdotally it seems things are moving better in the state...

Not saying the market is good, but is this the beginning of the end? Or atleast as Winston Churchill said, the end of the beginning?

[JCougar]

Nothing really wrong with that at all. Bottom half of the T14 (minus Georgetown) for less than $100K total debt is probably the best most people are going to get. Placement doesn't drop off for Biglaw purposes, but the tuition you'll pay is far less. And clerking is such a crapshoot from anywhere but Yale that it's not worth paying sticker over.

Unless you can pull off one of those prestigious full scholarships at one of the T6 (like a Ruby, etc.). Those people are in good shape.

[dd235]

Economy in Colorado may be improving too. Small sample size but full time JD required at CU increased to 70%. http://www.colorado.edu/law/sites/defau ... 8-2014.pdf

Will await DU and hope their numbers went up too. Anecdotally it seems things are moving better in the state...

Not saying the market is good, but is this the beginning of the end? Or atleast as Winston Churchill said, the end of the beginning?

This is really impressive. That’s up almost 20% from last year’s numbers.

[PrideandGlory1776]

Dying to see Vandy and Cornell . . .

[LRGhost]

Dying to see Vandy and Cornell . . .

Don't pay too much attention to how schools do one year compared to the next. Penn went down a bit, NU went up a bit. Does that make a difference? Not really.

[Winston1984]

Dying to see Vandy and Cornell . . .

Don't pay too much attention to how schools do one year compared to the next. Penn went down a bit, NU went up a bit. Does that make a difference? Not really.

Yeah bro, Definitely CSC right now.

[jk148706]

How many people have the ability to go to a school w/ a full scholly and also have a reasonable chance of still getting biglaw? It can't be that big of a number.

What's wrong with going to a T14 for a reasonable amount of money (which I would consider <$100k total debt at repayment to be reasonable for most T14's), working in biglaw for a few years, and then examining your options if you decide its not for you? After 2-3 years you can make a significant dent in that sub-$100k debt. You'll have some flexibility to take jobs you may not have been able to take directly out of school, but you also will have a solid school behind you for a reasonable price.

The majority of T14 grads who land biglaw and do well for a few years will have exit options. If you can graduate for a reasonable amount you'll do fine.

I agree with you that people who take out $250k+ in loans to get biglaw are taking a big risk for something they will probably hate/strongly dislike, but it's not the only option.

Breaking news: desirable jobs are competitive and require you to bring skills and/or experience.

The grass is always greener. I agree with you guys that 0L's who see biglaw as the promised land are mistaken. But for some of us biglaw is typically a necessary means to an end. As long as us 0L's are clear about goals, know how to get there, and can be realistic about what that entails, it shouldn't be too big of a shock that biglaw hours suck and you get burned out after a few years.

I know biglaw is not going to be fun, but I also know that for where I want to eventually be, it is a necessary step along that path. I'm sure that's how it is for the majority of people who are in biglaw. They know they don't like it, but they they also know they have to do it. That doesn't make it horrible that there are many people who are trying to leave. The majority of people enter biglaw with the intent to leave at some point.

Seriously, I could not agree more w LS22 Itt.

[Tiago Splitter]

Not saying the market is good, but is this the beginning of the end? Or atleast as Winston Churchill said, the end of the beginning?

The big key for people who just want to be a lawyer is that law school enrollment is down by 25%. Won't help much if you want biglaw and are at a school without a robust OCI, but if any lawyer job will suffice the odds are now much higher that you'll land it. Of course, the 2013 class that we're now analyzing was the biggest in history, so we won't have an idea of how this massive drop in enrollment impacted hiring for at least another year or two.

[bearsfan23]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Unless you can provide some actual proof, this is complete bullshit. Sure there are some staff attorney hires, but the vast majority of entry level biglaw hires, especially from schools hiring T14 grads, are for normal entry level associate positions. For example - look at UChicago and compare the salary information w/the hiring info. There really isn't any doubt those are almost all market level positions. Doom and gloom is fine, but at least back it up with something more than an anecdote.

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

[Tiago Splitter]

By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

No one says this. Agree with you about Campos' post. "One of the schools on the list" as if it could be any one lol.

[hashashin]

TCR is Retake Life ED Trust Fund Baby

Too be honest, TCR is to go to a school that gives you a full scholly, live with family/SO during law school to cover COL, and still get Biglaw. That way you can quit whenever you feel it's appropriate.

I'm not against Biglaw per se, as any entry-level legal job is going to be a lot of mind-numbing busywork and redundant editing/binder-making/doc review, etc. I just think people should be wary about trapping themselves in a job they're either going to hate or not last much more than a year in.

Just wondering...but have you actually worked in Biglaw?

[jbagelboy]

Lol. Fuck debt. Just be rich = have expliotative ancestors is TCR





Sad story for us poor ass plebs LOL

[californiauser]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Unless you can provide some actual proof, this is complete bullshit. Sure there are some staff attorney hires, but the vast majority of entry level biglaw hires, especially from schools hiring T14 grads, are for normal entry level associate positions. For example - look at UChicago and compare the salary information w/the hiring info. There really isn't any doubt those are almost all market level positions. Doom and gloom is fine, but at least back it up with something more than an anecdote.

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

He's not lying. Go look at some firm profiles for major law firms. You'll see a handful of recent grads listed as "staff attorneys." I've seen T20 grads in these positions, but it's usually TT/TTT grads with high grades.

I don't think he was trying to imply that most staff attorneys are T14 grads.

[hashashin]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Unless you can provide some actual proof, this is complete bullshit. Sure there are some staff attorney hires, but the vast majority of entry level biglaw hires, especially from schools hiring T14 grads, are for normal entry level associate positions. For example - look at UChicago and compare the salary information w/the hiring info. There really isn't any doubt those are almost all market level positions. Doom and gloom is fine, but at least back it up with something more than an anecdote.

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

He's not lying. Go look at some firm profiles for major law firms. You'll see a handful of recent grads listed as "staff attorneys." I've seen T20 grads in these positions, but it's usually TT/TTT grads with high grades.

I don't think he was trying to imply that most staff attorneys are T14 grads.

Nah...Fuck Paul Campos.

[twenty]

Nah...Fuck Paul Campos.

You go on these weird attack sorties against Campos. What do you have against the guy?

[JCougar]

Then again, the logic on here is pretty messed up already. By TLS standards, all government and public interest positions are "not desirable", when in reality this includes some of the best/hardest jobs to get.

No one says this, but the fact is the majority of government/business/PI jobs are ones that don't pay enough to make a normal monthly loan payment at sticker-level debt. Unless your school has a great LRAP, you'll just have to pray that PSLF doesn't get taken away 10 years from now or that you don't get screwed by budget cuts down the road.

Yes, there are some FedGov positions that pay six figures after a few years, and a few of the "business" jobs are actually decent jobs in consulting, etc. I know of a few from my school in each. But the good jobs in these categories are pretty rare and go mostly to the top schools. Consulting firms are just as selective as Biglaw. A lot of FedGov has cutoffs somewhere around T20 or higher. The percentage of Harvard people working in business where the job is actually a great job is probably close to 90%. But this percentage is likely more like 15% for most schools outside the T25...and even that's probably pretty generous.

The thing is, schools could very easily solve this problem by simply releasing more granular employment data. There's a few (Vandy, at least, and maybe a few others) that release basically all the details of each job minus the name of the student. If people could actually look at the job and make the decision for themselves that it was a good one, none of this would be a problem. And if law schools hadn't been terrible, bald-faced liars in the past, people would tend to give them more credit. Instead, we had schools reporting that their graduates working as a barista at Starbucks are working in "Business" where the median salary is like "$85K." We had schools hire their own unemployed graduates for a month or two right at the 9-month mark so they could tell US News that they were employed. We had schools putting their own students in free LLM programs because getting a LLM used to count as employed.

The truth is, you can add maybe 5% to each school outside the T10's score to represent all the decent jobs you get out of the business/government/public interest categories combined. But that's it. You can also probably subtract a point or three from their "Biglaw" scores because 1) some of these jobs are contract attorney jobs doing doc review for the big firms, and 2) not all firms with 100 lawyers or more actually pay market--in fact, some of them are just huge personal injury/bankrupcy mills that are like shitlaw only worse like Peter Frances Geraci.