Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley Forum

[SemperLegal]

B came through with 75k. So now between here and Northwestern.

Thoughts? I'm really, really torn. NU opens up Chicago possibly, is cheaper for me, doesn't have UC issues like B does. B gives me best shot at CA, has a better grading system/no graded legal writing, and much better weather/QoL.

I thought this would be a lot easier of a decision but now I don't know.

I'm assuming you mean 25k/year, right? Otherwise, I don't see if this is even an issue.

In favor of Boalt:

1. You want to be here.
2. You can get another 6k in fellowships for your 1L summer if you do PI stuff (and you will).
3. The grading system is absolutely amazing.


In favor of NU:

1. Hotdogs
2. Weather is not THAT bad.

Real factors however:

1. What's your comparative total COA?
2. As much as a I hate the government of Cali, and the UC system, I think that Boalt will for the most part be unaffected. We have hardly any taxpayer support, they are really ramping up alumni giving, and we have too many allies in Sac to let the state dillute our name in order to raise the value of the other UC schools (as is happening with UC-B undergrad.)
3. That being said, expect tuition to probably raise at least one more time while you are here (though they have staved off raises two years in a row by dipping into our inadequate endowment*)


*Story of my life.

[J-e-L-L-o]

B came through with 75k. So now between here and Northwestern.

Thoughts? I'm really, really torn. NU opens up Chicago possibly, is cheaper for me, doesn't have UC issues like B does. B gives me best shot at CA, has a better grading system/no graded legal writing, and much better weather/QoL.

I thought this would be a lot easier of a decision but now I don't know.

Best things happen to those who wait...

Enjoy da Bay!

[dawyzest1]

I am dumb enough to have given more than a moment's thought to advising you to take B at sticker, so now that you've got the cash, your answer is Boalt.

Congrats, and good luck!

[TripTrip]

I don't think it's really necessary to post. We all know you're going to berk. Enjoy cali!

[Micdiddy]

I was going to post this pic on this thread, but there's only one place for the cutest dogs on TLS:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p6721878

[BigZuck]

Enjoy Berkeley. And congrats!

[North]

Enjoy Berkeley. And congrats!

[untar614]

yep, it's pretty clear where this is going. Congrats.

Didn't you say you had family in the area? I'm sure you can find ways to cut costs as much as possible. Remember, trimming of $300/month off your rent, over 3 years + interest is close to 15k.

[Big Dog]

In favor of NU:

1. Hotdogs

Uh, no. Cal has Top Dog.

[SemperLegal]

In favor of NU:

1. Hotdogs

Uh, no. Cal has Top Dog.

V.

[dawyzest1]

In favor of NU:
2. Weather is not THAT bad.

Can't disagree more on this one. I've lived in Denver, Boston, and Philly, and Chicago has by far the worst weather I've ever experienced. Winter was early and brutal, spring was late and fleeting. Summer was phenomenal, but only about 5.5 weeks long. The weather is abominable, but the city is magnificent. Can that magnificence keep you going when it's -3 with -27 windchill?

[letsjustsee]

.

[bk1]

I don't get the Berkeley love. I'm not sure it's worth 80k+ more than USC/UCLA. It might be, but I definitely don't think it's so easy.

[SemperLegal]

I don't get the Berkeley love. I'm not sure it's worth 80k+ more than USC/UCLA. It might be, but I definitely don't think it's so easy.

In general, I am inclined to agree that between UCLA and Berkeley the decision is hard (86% v. 72%) but USC's scores are a little scary 69%. Also, I can't stress enough how relaxing the grading policy is for a certain types of people (for who being in the center of the pack is a goal, not a failure). I like the fact that at Boalt you can essentially write off a class, do no studying aside from a supplement, and still be in the top quarter. At many other schools, one C can seriously hamper your chances at employment. A "P" simply does not have that affect.

[TrialLawyer16]

This ends now.

Go to Berkeley.

Agreed.

And I was a guy who thought Cornell was the obvious choice here before the Berkeley scholly offer, not Northwestern. But I think they lowered the cost enough for it to make sense. Even though, according to your first post, with a 75k scholly from Berkeley it's still 100k+ more than Cornell (are you sure those numbers are right?).

Either way, enjoy Boalt my friend. Glad to see everything worked out.

[bk1]

In general, I am inclined to agree that between UCLA and Berkeley the decision is hard (86% v. 72%) but USC's scores are a little scary 69%. Also, I can't stress enough how relaxing the grading policy is for a certain types of people (for who being in the center of the pack is a goal, not a failure). I like the fact that at Boalt you can essentially write off a class, do no studying aside from a supplement, and still be in the top quarter. At many other schools, one C can seriously hamper your chances at employment. A "P" simply does not have that affect.

USC/UCLA probably don't give out C's except in rare circumstances whereas P's are fairly common at Berkeley. That's not really a fair comparison. I'm just not sure I believe that the grading policy is really an advantage. Getting biglaw is not necessarily easy from lower T14s like Berkeley. This isn't HYS where "straight Ps get 160 Gs." There likely is, and should be, competition for good grades.

[helix23]

I don't get the Berkeley love. I'm not sure it's worth 80k+ more than USC/UCLA. It might be, but I definitely don't think it's so easy.

60.5% v. 37.6%/39%.

and

8.3% v. 22.6%/20.1%

looks worth it to me. But I am more risk averse than debt averse.

[bk1]

looks worth it to me. But I am more risk averse than debt averse.

I mean I think it might be, but I don't think it's the "zomgberkeleyduh" chorus that has been the response so far. 170k+ debt is a lot when USC/UCLA can be had for under 100k.

[SemperLegal]

In general, I am inclined to agree that between UCLA and Berkeley the decision is hard (86% v. 72%) but USC's scores are a little scary 69%. Also, I can't stress enough how relaxing the grading policy is for a certain types of people (for who being in the center of the pack is a goal, not a failure). I like the fact that at Boalt you can essentially write off a class, do no studying aside from a supplement, and still be in the top quarter. At many other schools, one C can seriously hamper your chances at employment. A "P" simply does not have that affect.

USC/UCLA probably don't give out C's except in rare circumstances whereas P's are fairly common at Berkeley. That's not really a fair comparison. I'm just not sure I believe that the grading policy is really an advantage. Getting biglaw is not necessarily easy from lower T14s like Berkeley. This isn't HYS where "straight Ps get 160 Gs." There likely is, and should be, competition for good grades.

Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

Informally, it looks like to have a shot at OCI you need at least 3Hs and the rest P's. I think that it is much easier to do that, if you are willing to be purely strategic then it is to hit OCI worthy grades at peer schools.

Its all hopeful supposition from a 1L, however.

[bk1]

Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

NU has a similar system (the ability to take uncurved classes as a 1L), but does have graded LRW. I agree that it would be nice not to have graded LRW, but I think that grading systems are very secondary to debt/job prospects. I also think that the added stress of graded LRW is more than made up for by the stress reduction from having almost 1/2 the amount of debt.

[SemperLegal]

Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

NU has a similar system (the ability to take uncurved classes as a 1L), but does have graded LRW. I agree that it would be nice not to have graded LRW, but I think that grading systems are very secondary to debt/job prospects. I also think that the added stress of graded LRW is more than made up for by the stress reduction from having almost 1/2 the amount of debt.

I agree I think that the choice between NU and B is extremely hard, and the smart choice (and the one I would make if I was OP) is to take NU and use some of the "extra" money to get out of town whenever the weather gets to you. If you strike out, the situation is almost identically dire, especially with PAYE and IBR (though my math skills are rough, so take that with a grain of salt). However, the difference in service payments if you get Biglaw are vast (especially since from NU you have a chance of paying down nearly all your debt before you burn out).

I don't agree, however, that the other CA schools are as hard a choice (though I could see why someone would choose UCLA over B, because debt is truly something that we should be scared of).

[twinkletoes16]

Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

NU has a similar system (the ability to take uncurved classes as a 1L), but does have graded LRW. I agree that it would be nice not to have graded LRW, but I think that grading systems are very secondary to debt/job prospects. I also think that the added stress of graded LRW is more than made up for by the stress reduction from having almost 1/2 the amount of debt.

FWIW calculating it out it looks like a difference of about 30k- 150k at NU and 178 at Berkeley at graduation.

[helix23]

Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

NU has a similar system (the ability to take uncurved classes as a 1L), but does have graded LRW. I agree that it would be nice not to have graded LRW, but I think that grading systems are very secondary to debt/job prospects. I also think that the added stress of graded LRW is more than made up for by the stress reduction from having almost 1/2 the amount of debt.

100k is still a lot for what I perceive as far less of a chance of paying off that debt.

[bk1]

FWIW calculating it out it looks like a difference of about 30k- 150k at NU and 178 at Berkeley at graduation.

I was comparing to USC/UCLA. That seems high for NU. Not factoring in tuition/CoL increases for either school, it should be something around a roughly 45k difference (127k vs 170k). I think objectively Cornell made the most sense but that isn't an option anymore. I still think objectively NU makes more sense at a 1/3 discount of the Berkeley price but since you want CA so bad that Berkeley could be justified even at 50k more.

[bk1]

100k is still a lot for what I perceive as far less of a chance of paying off that debt.

Of course it's a lot. Far less chance of paying off debt is hyperbolic though.