NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012 Forum

[megagnarley]

Isnt Michigan's median GPA also lower than its "peers"?

Poor Michigan. They are so loveable but making it so hard to be logically chosen. Sigh.

[somewhatwayward]

Ouch, WUSTL got hammered. That class was 300 though. New 1L class is only 200.

It's up 3% from last year, which seems to be a pretty average increase considering the overall improvement between this year and last year.

Also posted this in the WUSTL thread:

It's not actually that bad when you consider that the schools ahead of WUSTL are 1) the T14 2) traditionally the 4 schools right outside the T14 (UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) 3) schools known for being biglaw feeders (Fordham/BC/BU/GWU) 4) the inaugural graduating class of a tiny school that all attended on full schollys (UCI) and 5) UIUC. Lol UIUC is really the only one that surprises me.

That last quote sounds like some serious rationalization. Perhaps that is a little harsh since they basically placed in line with their peers ND and UIUC. I guess I am reacting to that in the context of the crazy blind love in the WUSTL c/o 2016 admissions thread.

I'll chime in a few of my thoughts:

We didn't get "hammered." We're right where we usually are, and up 3% from last year, which is consistent with a slow recovery like the one we're in. I don't think anyone is surprised by this data. Throw in AIII and prestigious state court clerkships and we come in right around 20%, which is about what I would have predicted before this data came out.

A couple of things related to our class demographics tend to hurt us a bit in job placement, and make things look a little worse for incoming 0Ls than they actually are: 1) big transfer classes, 2) decent sized LLM --> JD transfer classes (a lot of the Asian foreign students stick around and get JDs and shoot for jobs here), and 3) in the past few years, much bigger than average class sizes (our class is over 300, the current 1L class is at 200 I think). The transfers and LLM --> JD classes do worse on average than the students who are here from 1L on, and the bigger class size makes it harder to place everyone.

I'm not rationalizing our placement, because it's right where I thought it would be. And no way I would recommend paying sticker or close to it for a WUSTL degree absent some truly unique circumstances. WUSTL is not a biglaw powerhouse by any stretch, and expecting to land it is going to be a fool's errand for most students. But for those of you 0Ls and 1Ls wondering, "What are my odds at an NLJ 250 job if I go to WUSTL?" I'd say around 25%-30% for the c/o 2015-2016, if I were to speculate, due to 1) the number being deflated a bit by the LLM->JDs and transfers (which I'm not including in that estimate), 2) slow but continued market improvement, and 3) most importantly, a much smaller class size.

All perfectly reasonable, which is what I would expect from you unlike starstruck 0Ls. I agree that you should only take WUSTL at a significant discount. But I guess my hesitation is that it seems like WUSTL takes a class that is basically equally as smart as Cornell/UCLA/USC/UT/Vandy (assuming GPA/LSAT predict intelligence, which I think they do to some extent when you're talking about big groups in which random fluctuations cancel out) so you've got stiff competition but noticeably less placement power at least if big law or fed clerkship is your goal, which has to be your goal if you're paying more than 100K. This means at WUSTL you have to beat 70% of a very smart group to have a decent shot while at USC you only have to beat 50% of an equally smart group to have a decent shot. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pick WUSTL if you want the Midwest over CA or you get a big scholarship or something obviously.

[pushmataha]

moonman157 wrote:
Isnt Michigan's median GPA also lower than its "peers"?


Poor Michigan. They are so loveable but making it so hard to be logically chosen. Sigh.

Same. Feeling. Balancing against Northwestern is killing me...

[06102016]

..

[pushmataha]

Going big for 3-5 years appears to be the wise bet with debt. Unsure if that will be the long term agenda, but NU is tough to commit to over Michigan knowing that I may want to play in the DC market (for regulatory or federal issues), as well as Chicago.

Simultaneously, NU has the numbers. And I totally buy into the theory that Michigan may be butter spread too thinly over too much toast.

[IAFG]

No one places well into DC.

[06102016]

..

[rad lulz]

No one places well into DC.

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen? Assume, hypothetically, that the person wanting DC has lousy experience going into law school and isn't particularly unique or interesting.

Go to Yale

Be able to articulate a sincere interest in DC specific practice areas (regulatory and antitrust come to mind)

[06102016]

..

[SaintsTheMetal]

Some schools just have systems better set up to place people, whereas I hear all the time about UVA's system (OCI and grading systems) fucking people over that aren't at the top of the class

How does UVA's system work? I've heard this a lot on the board too, but I haven't seen specifics.

There's definitely people that can answer this better than me, but what I hear about UVA:
grading system does not have mandated percentages for grades, only a mandatory mean for the class. This leads to a lot more people getting their GPA tanked by a B- or C.

for OCI, a pre-select seems to be a killer. It helps the people at the top of class get shit loads of interviews, but the just below median guys are the ones getting fucked by it. In essence its adding an extra round of "cuts" before even getting to the screener stage. Then more difficult to get a CB because of stiffer (preselected) competition.



As for why... sure beats me. These systems benefit the top 10% and I speculate can give the school a better chance of having people make it into the V5 or a scotus clerkship or whatever...at the cost of more unemployed from the middle of the pack

[09042014]

Some schools just have systems better set up to place people, whereas I hear all the time about UVA's system (OCI and grading systems) fucking people over that aren't at the top of the class

How does UVA's system work? I've heard this a lot on the board too, but I haven't seen specifics.

There's definitely people that can answer this better than me, but what I hear about UVA:
grading system does not have mandated percentages for grades, only a mandatory mean for the class. This leads to a lot more people getting their GPA tanked by a B- or C.

for OCI, a pre-select seems to be a killer. It helps the people at the top of class get shit loads of interviews, but the just below median guys are the ones getting fucked by it. In essence its adding an extra round of "cuts" before even getting to the screener stage. Then more difficult to get a CB because of stiffer (preselected) competition.



As for why... sure beats me. These systems benefit the top 10% and I speculate can give the school a better chance of having people make it into the V5 or a scotus clerkship or whatever...at the cost of more unemployed from the middle of the pack

I doubt it even helps most of the Top 10% anyway. It's not like at other T14's it's hard to get interviews at the top firms. It's actually easier, because everyone else selects out.

It helps awkward people with good grades, because they get a ton more screens.

And probably people who are trying to spam multiple markets (since hey, you can probably cover two cities effectively).

But it assfucks everyone not in the top quarter. What a decided unchill system.

[rad lulz]

Some schools just have systems better set up to place people, whereas I hear all the time about UVA's system (OCI and grading systems) fucking people over that aren't at the top of the class

How does UVA's system work? I've heard this a lot on the board too, but I haven't seen specifics.

There's definitely people that can answer this better than me, but what I hear about UVA:
grading system does not have mandated percentages for grades, only a mandatory mean for the class. This leads to a lot more people getting their GPA tanked by a B- or C.

for OCI, a pre-select seems to be a killer. It helps the people at the top of class get shit loads of interviews, but the just below median guys are the ones getting fucked by it. In essence its adding an extra round of "cuts" before even getting to the screener stage. Then more difficult to get a CB because of stiffer (preselected) competition.



As for why... sure beats me. These systems benefit the top 10% and I speculate can give the school a better chance of having people make it into the V5 or a scotus clerkship or whatever...at the cost of more unemployed from the middle of the pack

I doubt it even helps most of the Top 10% anyway. It's like at other T14's it's hard to get interviews at the top firms. It's actually easier, because everyone else selects out.

It helps awkward people with good grades, because they get a ton more screens.

And probably people who are trying to spam multiple markets (since hey, you can probably cover two cities effectively).

But it assfucks everyone not in the top quarter. What a decided unchill system.

Last year they capped everyone at 25 OCI interviews. No idea if that helped or not

[09042014]

That probably helps the top 25%ish crowd.

[Stringer Bell]

For those unfamiliar, UVA's system is 75% preselect and 25% lottery. This past year, a student was capped at being able to accept 23 interviews, but in the past that number has varied. Most of the class winds up with 15 or more interviews. There are some legitimate pros and cons to the system. However, the best place to draw inferences is with the employment stats. This data indicates that it probably doesn't matter much either way. Michigan's pure lottery system hasn't resulted in better employment numbers. Boalt has similar stats with a lottery and a confusing grading system. Cornell's numbers are about the same in this data.

FWIW, CSO told the 1L's that this past OCI has been the best since the recession. I don't know if that is the same at other T14's.

[Big Dog]

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen?

Pick an Ivy (H, Y, or C). (DC is a prestige whore.)

[IAFG]

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen?

Pick an Ivy (H, Y, or C). (DC is a prestige whore.)

And even then you need a good pitch and strong grades, and even THEN you might get snubbed.

[guano]

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen?

Pick an Ivy (H, Y, or C). (DC is a prestige whore.)

Lol Penn

[lawyerwannabe]

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen?

Pick an Ivy (H, Y, or C). (DC is a prestige whore.)

Lol Penn

They won't be able to impress DC with their prestige until their football scandal is completely resolved. No one knows what to make of Joe Pa's legacy yet, so most firms in DC are still making up their minds how they feel about the school.

[Big Dog]

Penn is too closely associated with those money-grubbing Wharton 'hoes. And in DC today, money-making is frowned upon.

[romanticegotist]

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen?

Pick an Ivy (H, Y, or C). (DC is a prestige whore.)

Lol Penn

They won't be able to impress DC with their prestige until their football scandal is completely resolved. No one knows what to make of Joe Pa's legacy yet, so most firms in DC are still making up their minds how they feel about the school.

163

[guano]

If someone wanted DC, what would be the best way to make it happen?

Pick an Ivy (H, Y, or C). (DC is a prestige whore.)

Lol Penn

They won't be able to impress DC with their prestige until their football scandal is completely resolved. No one knows what to make of Joe Pa's legacy yet, so most firms in DC are still making up their minds how they feel about the school.

Don't be such a stupid troll. This joke was old before you registered

[lawyerwannabe]

What are you talking about?

[kryptix]

I would not assume that Fordham FT students do better than PT. PT students are more likely to have professional experience which will help during OCI.

Purely subjective data but the people I know in this year's PT OCI class (that is, those participating in OCI for 2013 SA's) did very well.
(I think that law2015 is on to something - those students who stay in the PT program for the full 4 years do so because they are still working FT; this helps during OCI. Just MHO.)

Empirically I think this is very true, the class of 2014 I'd say there's probably only 20-30 evening students left, of those, 1/3 did not do OCI, so of the ones that did, I personally know that at least 10 have SA positions so I'd say much better than the FT students. That said this is the small subset of PT that stayed PT and did not go to FT... Most of the people significantly outperformed their grades at OCI too.

[Sheffield]

They won't be able to impress DC with their prestige until their football scandal is completely resolved. No one knows what to make of Joe Pa's legacy yet, so most firms in DC are still making up their minds how they feel about the school.

UPENN and Penn State.... it never gets old.

[20130312]

They won't be able to impress DC with their prestige until their football scandal is completely resolved. No one knows what to make of Joe Pa's legacy yet, so most firms in DC are still making up their minds how they feel about the school.

UPENN and Penn State.... it never gets old.

Except that it definitely does.