Berkeley Haters Forum

[Tangerine Gleam]

Philly is great, in a raw sort of way.

A dude was shot in front of my house the week I moved in. My roomate was knocked off of his bike by little children throwing bricks. My car was broken into three nights in a row. My friend woke up one morning to find his van deliberately smeared with human shit.

But I do love Philly.

[The Brainalist]

The East Bay, where Berkeley is located, is to San Francisco as Hoboken/New Jersey is to New York.

It even has its own guidos. --LinkRemoved-- Berkeley Shores FTW.

Please try not to make this an SF/NY/Chicago/DC/Boston debate unless it is about Hastings.

Thanks.

[edit: to be more on point, maybe as Camden is to Philadelphia.]

[Shaggier1]

This has probably been mentioned, but I will repeat just in case no one has said it in the pages that I stopped reading after page 1:

Hippies do not go to law school.

[James Bond]

This has probably been mentioned, but I will repeat just in case no one has said it in the pages that I stopped reading after page 1:

Hippies do not go to law school.

Not all hippies look like hippies...it's a mental defect not just one based on appearance and lifestyle

[los blancos]

These are valid reasons to say Penn > Berk.

(and in case it wasn't clear, I asked earlier about Penn vs Mich because it seems to be the general consensus that Michigan definitely has more prestige with the legal establishment)

Personally, I would choose whichever school of MVPD gave me the most $$$.

That's definetely a good strategy, and one I may end up going for. However, I would guess that if you get money from one of those schools, you can get other schools in that tier to match it. Also, you may be right about Michigan having more traditional prestige than Penn, but there are a couple other factors that would make me think Penn>Mich ITE. (1) located in a large legal market, and right between the two biggest legal markets in the country, and (2) size: I think smaller schools suffer proportianately less in poor hiring situations because firms have a vested interest in maintaining relationships with elite schools. Other than that, it's all personal preference, which also pushes me toward Penn.

Yeah, I'm especially attracted to the smaller class size - that's what pushes me toward Duke. Penn's location is not as good as Michigan's for me since I'm from the Midwest (AA is a 4 hour drive) and I have no desire to end up in any of the markets that Penn places strongest in. That's the other thing that would push me toward Michigan - it seems to place slightly better in CA than anything else outside of HYSCC. That said, if Penn gave me more $$$, I'd go there. For the time being, the argument is moot since I haven't gotten into either school yet and I'm not banking on it. I just hope I get into Berkeley so my cycle is over.

[im_blue]

(unlike students from other MVPB schools that often seem to)

So I'm not the only one who thinks UVa is overrated on this site? I don't know, maybe it's just a flawed perception on my part since UVa isn't very high on my list.

I don't think UVA is overrated at all...not one bit...I think it deserves its rank 100 percent. Just that students from UVa, and to a lesser degree Michigan, tend to make posts on TLS disparaging other schools and trolling for their own schools. Common examples include putting MVPB significantly above DCNG or putting down one or all of CCN (usually by asserting that NYU is part of the MVPB category). Now I'm not saying that these assertions are necessarily wrong (hell they might be right) but the trolling in unrelated threads can be annoying. Not to mention that the argument can just as easily be made that Duke or NU are as good as those schools or that NYU is better overall than them by virtue of biglaw placement. So my point was not that UVA or Michigan are overrated but that they tend to have lots of trolls invading other threads and tearing down other schools, while building their own schools up. I haven't noticed that as much with Berkeley students, which is why I posted that I don't see why people would hate on it.

As a lurker that's the vibe I get from NYU students (and to a lesser extent Cornell). It seems a lot of NYU people troll a lot by constantly asserting how their school is just as strong as Chicago and Columbia, and how it is clearly in another tier/league than Michigan, UVA, or Berkeley. They always tear down other schools by talking about how they are "top 6" or "top 5" and making up groupings like "HYSCCN" etc. I've never really understood this as they are basically just the NYC focused version of Michigan, UVA, or Boalt: their peer schools to anyone who doesn't take all their ideas of schools from US News.

I've noticed that many of them will say things like "Well NYC is the best place in the world and the best market, so the fact that NYU does well there makes it better than those other schools". I never really understood this considering how easy it is to break into NYC, and especially since there are two highly desirable markets that are a good deal more selective (Cali and DC) than NYC. In addition, many of the top students at HYS flock to DC ( a good sign that NYC is not neccesarily the "best" market, whatever that even means), it's just as elite and desirable (if not more so) market as NYC. NYC is basically a non option for those interested in top litigation and a lot of top government jobs, not to mention top IP jobs.

TITCR. Why are people who say "CC > N outside of NYC" anti-NYU trolls, but the NYU students that claim "Columbia = NYU" aren't regarded as trolls themselves? Let's not kid ourselves, Columbia gets like 70-80% of cross-admits with NYU, and beats NYU in and out of NYC. Sure, just like USC is UCLA's equal...

[crackberry]

Well the NYU "trolls" have been remarkably successful then. They have somehow managed to get USNWR to elevate their school's ranking to 5 while the rancid and ubiquitous UVA trolls have not managed a similar feat.

I'm not a pro-NYU troll by any means, just saying.

[sandy10]

Well the NYU "trolls" have been remarkably successful then. They have somehow managed to get USNWR to elevate their school's ranking to 5 while the rancid and ubiquitous UVA trolls have not managed a similar feat.

I'm not a pro-NYU troll by any means, just saying.

By far the biggest signs of NYU trolling are

1. Quoting US News as the gospel of school strength instead of actual employment prospects
2. Putting anything referring to NYU trolling in quotes
3.Referring to other schools trolling without using quotes as if it is an objective fact that talking positively about that school is trolling.
4. Referring to NYC as the biggest and therefore "best", most important, most desirable and most elite market. Usually while referring to every other market as "secondary" (often while calling the "secondary" markets "flyover country" "backwards" etc.).

I think that post includes 3 of the 4.

[crackberry]

Well the NYU "trolls" have been remarkably successful then. They have somehow managed to get USNWR to elevate their school's ranking to 5 while the rancid and ubiquitous UVA trolls have not managed a similar feat.

I'm not a pro-NYU troll by any means, just saying.

By far the biggest signs of NYU trolling are

1. Quoting US News as the gospel of school strength instead of actual employment prospects
2. Putting anything referring to NYU trolling in quotes
3.Referring to other schools trolling without using quotes as if it is an objective fact that talking positively about that school is trolling.
4. Referring to NYC as the biggest and therefore "best", most important, most desirable and most elite market. Usually while referring to every other market as "secondary" (often while calling the "secondary" markets "flyover country" "backwards" etc.).

I think that post includes 3 of the 4.

Ok thank you for your totally objective views. I am not going to NYU. I am not an NYU troll. I would pick Chicago AND Berkeley over NYU and will definitely be picking Stanford over NYU.

You and your 5 posts can leave now.

[ravens20]

Well the NYU "trolls" have been remarkably successful then. They have somehow managed to get USNWR to elevate their school's ranking to 5 while the rancid and ubiquitous UVA trolls have not managed a similar feat.

I'm not a pro-NYU troll by any means, just saying.

By far the biggest signs of NYU trolling are

1. Quoting US News as the gospel of school strength instead of actual employment prospects
2. Putting anything referring to NYU trolling in quotes
3.Referring to other schools trolling without using quotes as if it is an objective fact that talking positively about that school is trolling.
4. Referring to NYC as the biggest and therefore "best", most important, most desirable and most elite market. Usually while referring to every other market as "secondary" (often while calling the "secondary" markets "flyover country" "backwards" etc.).

I think that post includes 3 of the 4.

Ok thank you for your totally objective views. I am not going to NYU. I am not an NYU troll. I would pick Chicago AND Berkeley over NYU and will definitely be picking Stanford over NYU.

You and your 5 posts can leave now.

Lolol...my guess is he is Kurama in disguise.

[ravens20]

By far the biggest signs of NYU trolling are

1. Quoting US News as the gospel of school strength instead of actual employment prospects
2. Putting anything referring to NYU trolling in quotes
3.Referring to other schools trolling without using quotes as if it is an objective fact that talking positively about that school is trolling.
4. Referring to NYC as the biggest and therefore "best", most important, most desirable and most elite market. Usually while referring to every other market as "secondary" (often while calling the "secondary" markets "flyover country" "backwards" etc.).

I think that post includes 3 of the 4.

Ok thank you for your totally objective views. I am not going to NYU. I am not an NYU troll. I would pick Chicago AND Berkeley over NYU and will definitely be picking Stanford over NYU.

You and your 5 posts can leave now.

Lolol...my guess is he is Kurama in disguise.

[ughOSU]

Just received my long-anticipated rejection... more reason to hate berkeley!!!!!

[ravens20]

As a lurker that's the vibe I get from NYU students (and to a lesser extent Cornell). It seems a lot of NYU people troll a lot by constantly asserting how their school is just as strong as Chicago and Columbia, and how it is clearly in another tier/league than Michigan, UVA, or Berkeley. They always tear down other schools by talking about how they are "top 6" or "top 5" and making up groupings like "HYSCCN" etc. I've never really understood this as they are basically just the NYC focused version of Michigan, UVA, or Boalt: their peer schools to anyone who doesn't take all their ideas of schools from US News.

I've noticed that many of them will say things like "Well NYC is the best place in the world and the best market, so the fact that NYU does well there makes it better than those other schools". I never really understood this considering how easy it is to break into NYC, and especially since there are two highly desirable markets that are a good deal more selective (Cali and DC) than NYC. In addition, many of the top students at HYS flock to DC ( a good sign that NYC is not neccesarily the "best" market, whatever that even means), it's just as elite and desirable (if not more so) market as NYC. NYC is basically a non option for those interested in top litigation and a lot of top government jobs, not to mention top IP jobs.

TITCR. Why are people who say "CC > N outside of NYC" anti-NYU trolls, but the NYU students that claim "Columbia = NYU" aren't regarded as trolls themselves? Let's not kid ourselves, Columbia gets like 70-80% of cross-admits with NYU, and beats NYU in and out of NYC. Sure, just like USC is UCLA's equal...

Sandy10, you could absolutely could call it trolling (and I suppose in a sense it is) but there seem to be two differences here between what you are accusing NYU students of doing and what I was referring to: first is that they are responding to posts that talk about their own school being ranked incorrectly and second they are talking about their own school instead of targeting someone else's in completely unrelated threads. It would be like a student at Virginia responding to a Northwestern student who claims without giving much (any?) evidence that it should be DCNVG or something like that in a thread about employment in California or some other completely unrelated thread. It seems they that hypothetical Virginia student would be justified in responding (although perhaps there are times when NYU students respond in a way that may come across as trolling).

As for your whole criticism of HYSCCN and T6, those acronyms (and the term CCN) existed before any of the NYU trolls started using this board. Most of the threads that use those terms are not created by NYU trolls and there are plenty of students from other schools that use the terms freely and often. The term CCN exists because that is what the US News Rankings reflect; whether those rankings are correct or not is certainly up for debate but the fact that such terms exist is not evidence of trolling on anyone's part. For the most part, practically no Columbia or Chicago kids have any trouble using it either. From what I've seen as a longtime lurker on this board, the people that are most likely to have a problem with it are MVPB prospects/students (almost entirely UVA and to a lesser degree Michigan kids; and for the life of me I have no idea why).

And I'm Blue, as I admitted before, even trolling in defense of one's school is still trolling (I'm basically doing just that right here). And perhaps you are correct that NYU is beaten out by Columbia. But that still isn't evidence of it being in the same tier as MVPB - it could simply be in between Columbia and those schools. If I had to be perfectly honest I'd say that all these perceived differences between these tiers are overrated anyway (these are the top 14 law schools for Gods sake)...I doubt NYU is substantially better than Virginia but I similarly doubt that Columbia or Chicago is substantially better than NYU.

[ravens20]

But anyway what my post that created this latest debate intended to imply (and going back to the point of the thread) is that Berkeley students seem laid back, don't troll, and are generally likable (at least on this forum). So there is no reason to dislike them, much less hate them .

[Aeon]

Just received my long-anticipated rejection... more reason to hate berkeley!!!!!

Sorry to hear that.

[ughOSU]

Just received my long-anticipated rejection... more reason to hate berkeley!!!!!

Sorry to hear that.

Hey, it's all good... I obviously had low expectations this cycle (see username). Once I got in to UPenn I pretty much stopped caring about the other schools. I mean I would have liked to go to Berkeley for law school, but I think I liked it in theory more than in practice. When I'm thinking rationally, Penn makes a good bit more sense for me.

I'm sure it's cliche and at least half defense mechanism, but I'm actually glad I got rejected from Berkeley as I didn't apply to HYSCCN, and if I got in to every one of my targets like I did for UG I would have been pissed.

[sven]

HAHAHA. I love how I started looking through this thread thinking that I was going to read about Berkeley. Everything on TLS these days turns into an argument about the merits of NYU as a CCN school.

I actually have a question about Berkeley's placement in NYC, aka: the 'easiest-market-to-break-into'. I'm from NY and I'd like to work there, so obviously I'd like to get into NYU or Columbia. But if I don't (due to a sub-170 LSAT despite high grades), would it be stupid to choose Berkeley over Virginia or Michigan or Penn? Living in Cali for just 3 years and the non-competitive grading policy really appeal to me... Plus I kinda think that Berkeley is a better/cooler name than the others. If the NYC market's so easy to break into, would there be a downside?

[los blancos]

But if I don't (due to a sub-170 LSAT despite high grades), would it be stupid to choose Berkeley over Virginia or Michigan or Penn? Living in Cali for just 3 years and the non-competitive grading policy really appeal to me... Plus I kinda think that Berkeley is a better/cooler name than the other two. If the NYC market's so easy to break into, would there be a downside?

I think Penn is TITCR here, but I'm not sure. This is speculation, but I think people might've been referring to NYC as the easiest to break into just because it's the largest.

[Tangerine Gleam]

HAHAHA. I love how I started looking through this thread thinking that I was going to read about Berkeley. Everything on TLS these days turns into an argument about the merits of NYU as a CCN school.

I actually have a question about Berkeley's placement in NYC, aka: the 'easiest-market-to-break-into'. I'm from NY and I'd like to work there, so obviously I'd like to get into NYU or Columbia. But if I don't (due to a sub-170 LSAT despite high grades), would it be stupid to choose Berkeley over Virginia or Michigan or Penn? Living in Cali for just 3 years and the non-competitive grading policy really appeal to me... Plus I kinda think that Berkeley is a better/cooler name than the others. If the NYC market's so easy to break into, would there be a downside?

0L speculation here, but I think that Berkeley has the least East Coast traction of the T10. If you REALLY want to work in NYC for sure, it probably isn't the best idea -- Penn (primarily), Michigan, UVA, and even Duke might be preferable. That said, it's still a "top" school...I guess it's just a matter of weighing pros and cons. I personally agree that the Boalt environment would be tops...so tops that I wouldn't want to work in NYC, I'd want to stay in S.F.

[Doritos]

A couple more points about why Berk is suffering disproportianately ITE: (1) it's on the west coast, (2) their curve is ridiculous, and they aren't good enough to not grade students. They seem to have a Yale delusion that no one else is buying in to. [/flame]

From this forum I have heard every school in the country's OCI was bad except HYS. I just don't know what to believe anymore.

[worldtraveler]

HAHAHA. I love how I started looking through this thread thinking that I was going to read about Berkeley. Everything on TLS these days turns into an argument about the merits of NYU as a CCN school.

I actually have a question about Berkeley's placement in NYC, aka: the 'easiest-market-to-break-into'. I'm from NY and I'd like to work there, so obviously I'd like to get into NYU or Columbia. But if I don't (due to a sub-170 LSAT despite high grades), would it be stupid to choose Berkeley over Virginia or Michigan or Penn? Living in Cali for just 3 years and the non-competitive grading policy really appeal to me... Plus I kinda think that Berkeley is a better/cooler name than the others. If the NYC market's so easy to break into, would there be a downside?

0L speculation here, but I think that Berkeley has the least East Coast traction of the T10. If you REALLY want to work in NYC for sure, it probably isn't the best idea -- Penn (primarily), Michigan, UVA, and even Duke might be preferable. That said, it's still a "top" school...I guess it's just a matter of weighing pros and cons. I personally agree that the Boalt environment would be tops...so tops that I wouldn't want to work in NYC, I'd want to stay in S.F.

I'm a 1L with no ties to NYC, and I got a job offer in NY for the summer. You can apply for tons of jobs which don't necessarily advertise at Berkeley but the Berkeley name will still carry weight. If you want to go, you can do it.

OCI was 200 something. I don't know the exact number. I would be hesitant to listen to internet chatter about OCI. It's a lot of "I heard this from someone who heard this who heard it from someone else." I honestly don't have much of an idea of how bad it was, although I can say that there are 2Ls still looking for jobs. Not many, but they do exist. I also know some people with mediocre or worse grades who got great offers.

[ughOSU]

To clarify, my post was all speculation/flame.... I was simply regurgitating what I had previously heard somewhere else on TLS, and have no facts to back it up.

That said, both the things I cited are reasons why it would not surprise me that Berkeley is hurting more than other T10 schools, although I believe that the skyrocketing tuition should be a larger concern for prospective students (both because the cost is ridiculous and because I would not be surprised if their numbers, and therefore ranking, suffer due to good students being chased away). That was an awesome sentence.

[td6624]

Berkeley and Chicago are the only top-10s I applied to. Expecting an auto-reject from U of C but clinging to hope from Berkeley. Chicago is a wonderful city. I'm from the 'burbs and have spent tons of time in the city (my SO lives there currently). I would have loved to have a shot at NU, but without any WE and lower-than-median numbers, I had no shot. Its location is excellent. I would like to throw my hat in with the people trashing U of C's location. It's awful. I wouldn't like to live anywhere near there if I went there. And the public trans in Chicago is passable, but far from good.

I don't know much about NYC and was only there once for a weekend when I was 12 or something. But I imagine I'd like it very much. Ideally, I'd like to live in NYC or Chicago. But since I didn't have much of a shot at getting into the top schools in those cities, I don't think "settling" for the bay area or DC (GW, not G'Town) will be terrible.

The Berkeley "hate" here has had no influence on me. If I am lucky enough to get in, the only factor keeping me from there will be money. And even that might not be enough to pull me away from it.

[td6624]

Are you a high GPA splitter? Why didn't you apply to top 10s that place better in NYC and Chicago? And why GW over Georgetown? You make no sense.

168/3.8. That might qualify. I don't need to be in NYC or Chicago. I think I would be perfectly happy in DC or the bay area. Or Chicago, or any other number of places. I'm not that picky.

I applied to GW because I was fairly confident I would get in, and I did, and they gave me lots of money. I didn't feel good about Georgetown (the school or my chances of getting in) in my gut, which I know is essentially worthless, but I wouldn't have seen myself going there over GW with money. I applied to two reaches, a few possible/probable acceptances, and two safeties. I think it's reasonable, and I don't think it's nonsensical to pick and choose places I'd actually like to attend.

I make sense to myself, which is really all that matters. I'm not HYS or bust or T14 or bust or biglaw or bust.

[bilbobaggins]

The greatest thing about these threads is you get to see people you know will never come to Berkeley act like morons. Makes me happy I'll never have to put up with them.

If you get in to Boalt or are interested, come visit. Take the BART into the city (or drive across the beautiful Bay Bridge). Spend some time at John Muir Woods (about 30 - 45 minutes away). Go to Bolinas Beach (45 to 60 minutes). Walk around downtown Berkeley where we have one of the highest concentrations of restaurants in the country. Go to some bars in the Mission in SF, go to restaurants, clubs, etc.

People commute from SF. Most don't, but some do. Many go out to SF on a regular basis. Many take advantage of the Bay Area's stunning geography, excellent weather and plethora of things to do outside. Some don't.

It's hard to compare the Bay Area to the East Coast, because it's not really like the NYC metro area. When I lived in DC, I was a 20-40 minute metro ride and a 15-30 minute bus ride from any of the cool "areas" even though I lived within 2 miles of them. That's about how long it'll take to get from Berkeley to SF depending on the time of the day. Same thing goes for NYC.

Yes, Berkeley is much more suburban, and that can be annoying if you really, really love living in an urban environment (which I do), but SF is not a bad commute, neither is downtown Oakland (and people who say Berkeley = Oakland in some attempt to shit talk both have no idea what they're talking about and probably have never spent time in the nice parts of Oakland).

But at the end of the day, come and visit. Don't listen to what we have to say on this message board, because all of the people who go here will tell you they love it and a few disgruntled trolls will go on and on about the same two facts, putting their own negative spin on some geographic realities that have to be experienced to be judged accurately.