A Big TLS Welcome to Belmont College of Law, 2011 Forum

[Matthies]

Hey RM,

Read an article this weekend about how they are predicting within the next 10 years we will have a nationwide bar. What’s your thoughts on how this will effect an already saturated market?

I can see it being a benefit to those who go to school in crowded markets, but I think it will kill the market for local grads in smaller markets. Denver for example is very popular place for people who enjoy outside activities because we have them year round.

Having to take the bar here now at least limits the influx of out of state applicants somewhat. If all 50 states could apply here taking the bar anywhere, I think things would get worse then they already are as people just chose the city they wanted to be in applied from anywhere.

[reasonable_man]

Hey RM,

Read an article this weekend about how they are predicting within the next 10 years we will have a nationwide bar. What’s your thoughts on how this will effect an already saturated market?

I can see it being a benefit to those who go to school in crowded markets, but I think it will kill the market for local grads in smaller markets. Denver for example is very popular place for people who enjoy outside activities because we have them year round.

Having to take the bar here now at least limits the influx of out of state applicants somewhat. If all 50 states could apply here taking the bar anywhere, I think things would get worse then they already are as people just chose the city they wanted to be in applied from anywhere.

Thats interesting and I would tend to agree with you on the potential impact. However, unlike the fucking ABA, most state bar associations (who tend to be, at least, somewhat powerful), also tend to be protectionists and in my opinion will fight very hard to make sure that a nation-wide bar is not implimented. States like NY and NJ can't even agree about recipricrosity and frankly, the states make a nice chunck of change on the bar exam.. In all, I would be surprised if this idea got off the ground. I mean each federal court still requires you to be admited, even in your own state! (what a way to snag 170 bucks a pop out of new lawyers).

I would love to see that article. Without reading it, I'll go on record as saying that I would be shocked if this took hold. And besides, how else could NY and CA lawyers claim to be the best if we no longer had the hardest bar exams? This simply will not do!!!

[Matthies]

Hey RM,

Read an article this weekend about how they are predicting within the next 10 years we will have a nationwide bar. What’s your thoughts on how this will effect an already saturated market?

I can see it being a benefit to those who go to school in crowded markets, but I think it will kill the market for local grads in smaller markets. Denver for example is very popular place for people who enjoy outside activities because we have them year round.

Having to take the bar here now at least limits the influx of out of state applicants somewhat. If all 50 states could apply here taking the bar anywhere, I think things would get worse then they already are as people just chose the city they wanted to be in applied from anywhere.

Thats interesting and I would tend to agree with you on the potential impact. However, unlike the fucking ABA, most state bar associations (who tend to be, at least, somewhat powerful), also tend to be protectionists and in my opinion will fight very hard to make sure that a nation-wide bar is not implimented. States like NY and NJ can't even agree about recipricrosity and frankly, the states make a nice chunck of change on the bar exam.. In all, I would be surprised if this idea got off the ground. I mean each federal court still requires you to be admited, even in your own state! (what a way to snag 170 bucks a pop out of new lawyers).

I would love to see that article. Without reading it, I'll go on record as saying that I would be shocked if this took hold. And besides, how else could NY and CA lawyers claim to be the best if we no longer had the hardest bar exams? This simply will not do!!!

It was an ABA artcile that came in the weekly e-mail update, but I can't find it now, must have delated the e-mail. It focesd on the like 15 states that now all give the MBE, MEE< and MPT (like mine) and said that is the first step to a national bar exam. Was pretty intresting. If I can find it again I'll post.

[reasonable_man]

Hey RM,

Read an article this weekend about how they are predicting within the next 10 years we will have a nationwide bar. What’s your thoughts on how this will effect an already saturated market?

I can see it being a benefit to those who go to school in crowded markets, but I think it will kill the market for local grads in smaller markets. Denver for example is very popular place for people who enjoy outside activities because we have them year round.

Having to take the bar here now at least limits the influx of out of state applicants somewhat. If all 50 states could apply here taking the bar anywhere, I think things would get worse then they already are as people just chose the city they wanted to be in applied from anywhere.

Thats interesting and I would tend to agree with you on the potential impact. However, unlike the fucking ABA, most state bar associations (who tend to be, at least, somewhat powerful), also tend to be protectionists and in my opinion will fight very hard to make sure that a nation-wide bar is not implimented. States like NY and NJ can't even agree about recipricrosity and frankly, the states make a nice chunck of change on the bar exam.. In all, I would be surprised if this idea got off the ground. I mean each federal court still requires you to be admited, even in your own state! (what a way to snag 170 bucks a pop out of new lawyers).

I would love to see that article. Without reading it, I'll go on record as saying that I would be shocked if this took hold. And besides, how else could NY and CA lawyers claim to be the best if we no longer had the hardest bar exams? This simply will not do!!!

It was an ABA artcile that came in the weekly e-mail update, but I can't find it now, must have delated the e-mail. It focesd on the like 15 states that now all give the MBE, MEE< and MPT (like mine) and said that is the first step to a national bar exam. Was pretty intresting. If I can find it again I'll post.

That would be great.. NY has its own essays and 50 Multi-choice on day 1 and 200 MBE on day 2. The MPT was a new addition for my test (July 2008). Who knows, maybe even NY is quietly getting on board? As someone who lives in one of the famously 'saturated' jurisdictions, I suppose a national bar exam would benefit me more than many others, so I suppose on a personal level, it would make little difference to me. Moreover, I'm sure the respective states will still require you to be individually admitted to their bar to practice (making is much like the federal admission process where once you are admitted in a particular state, its pretty easy to become admitted in the federal courts, once you pay the fee, of course).

[Matthies]

[

That would be great.. NY has its own essays and 50 Multi-choice on day 1 and 200 MBE on day 2. The MPT was a new addition for my test (July 2008). Who knows, maybe even NY is quietly getting on board? As someone who lives in one of the famously 'saturated' jurisdictions, I suppose a national bar exam would benefit me more than many others, so I suppose on a personal level, it would make little difference to me. Moreover, I'm sure the respective states will still require you to be individually admitted to their bar to practice (making is much like the federal admission process where once you are admitted in a particular state, its pretty easy to become admitted in the federal courts, once you pay the fee, of course).

This July was the first time CO gave the MEE (Multistate Essay Exam) along with the MBE, and two MPTs. 200 MBEs, 8 MEE eassys, 2 MPTs over two days. None of them tested on CO law any more like they did before July 2009. Now all the questions are written by the national law examiners (for all 3 tests). I think 15 other states take it. BUT even though the questions where written out of state, CO wrote its own answer and scoring sheets for each question. I think most of the MEE states do that too. So while there are currently national questions, there are no national answers. So while we had the same question as other states we might not get the same points that people would in that state, just depends on what their graders though was more important. (and other MEE states have diffrent scores to pass from like 265 to 276 in CO).

[jenesaislaw]

Nothing infuriates me more than being mis-quoted.

[reasonable_man]

Nothing infuriates me more than being mis-quoted.

Bravo.

[Mr. Matlock]

the truth is, I'm not even a lawyer. Hell, I'm not even a man, as of 4 years ago. I live day to day on the charity of others and the nice people here at the library. My true passion in life, is dance. At 48 years young, I can honestly say I've only just begun to live!!

[Matthies]

the truth is, I'm not even a lawyer. Hell, I'm not even a man, as of 4 years ago. I live day to day on the charity of others and the nice people here at the library. My true passion in life, is dance. At 48 years young, I can honestly say I've only just begun to live!!

There was a persiatnt rumor at my school that some law student lived there in one of the study rooms. Took showers in the 4th floor bathroom. I never saw him but some of my classmates swaer it was true.

[reasonable_man]

the truth is, I'm not even a lawyer. Hell, I'm not even a man, as of 4 years ago. I live day to day on the charity of others and the nice people here at the library. My true passion in life, is dance. At 48 years young, I can honestly say I've only just begun to live!!

You're lucky i like ya matlock

[Mr. Matlock]

the truth is, I'm not even a lawyer. Hell, I'm not even a man, as of 4 years ago. I live day to day on the charity of others and the nice people here at the library. My true passion in life, is dance. At 48 years young, I can honestly say I've only just begun to live!!

You're lucky i like ya matlock

[blovely1338]

I have a question.

I go to belmont university --- the first year of their program.
I graduate. I am ranked in the middle 1/3rd of the class.

I am willing to take the first job I can find, public sector, whatever.
How much can I realistically expect to make? Also, what kind of crap job can I expect to get? I am willing to go into an field, I just want to work.

now, same questions, but this time, bottom 1/3rd of class.

[im_blue]

I have a question.

I go to belmont university --- the first year of their program.
I graduate. I am ranked in the middle 1/3rd of the class.

I am willing to take the first job I can find, public sector, whatever.
How much can I realistically expect to make? Also, what kind of crap job can I expect to get? I am willing to go into an field, I just want to work.

now, same questions, but this time, bottom 1/3rd of class.

ITE, I think you're looking at:
top 20-25%: 40k job
any lower: no job (as a lawyer)

[charlesjd]

Let me be the second to say BelmonTTT.

TTThe ABA needs TTTo STTTop accredTTTting TTThese TTT's.

[hairsj]

I have a question.

I go to belmont university --- the first year of their program.
I graduate. I am ranked in the middle 1/3rd of the class.

I am willing to take the first job I can find, public sector, whatever.
How much can I realistically expect to make? Also, what kind of crap job can I expect to get? I am willing to go into an field, I just want to work.

now, same questions, but this time, bottom 1/3rd of class.

ITE, I think you're looking at:
top 20-25%: 40k job
any lower: no job (as a lawyer)

LOL

[hairsj]

I have a question.

I go to belmont university --- the first year of their program.
I graduate. I am ranked in the middle 1/3rd of the class.

I am willing to take the first job I can find, public sector, whatever.
How much can I realistically expect to make? Also, what kind of crap job can I expect to get? I am willing to go into an field, I just want to work.

now, same questions, but this time, bottom 1/3rd of class.

Same as any other tier 2 school. 90%+ employment at 9 months with a median salary of prob 50k.

There are always jobs, if you are willing to put the work in.

[blovely1338]

Awesome.
I will be a member of the first class ever at belmont law school, but I want to make sure I can have a job somewhere when I graduate!

How hard is it to find part time jobs as a lawyer?

[observationalist]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

[Always Credited]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

Awesome, Ob!

Do me a favor and punch the Dean of Belmont Law in the face.

[Philo38]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

Awesome, Ob!

Do me a favor and punch the Dean of Belmont Law in the face.

[Always Credited]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

Awesome, Ob!

Do me a favor and punch the Dean of Belmont Law in the face.

[observationalist]

Thanks to all who helped make my 1000th post what it was... may you all spend more time writing out arguments on TLS than in the papers that ultimately determine your required seminar grade. And I wasn't joking about citing to the posts of specific people where they're particularly concise (in other words, where they're the opposite of one of my posts). Also if anyone's interested in a more thorough examination of how schools might offer a low-cost alternative to assist commiunities the way Philo was mentioning, the former Dean at Gonzaga law published a very interesting article back in the Journal of Legal Education's June '06 issue called Saving Legal Education. 56 J. Legal Educ. 254., author is Daniel J. Morrissey.

K I'm on my phone, library kicked me out so I'm calling it a night. I don't think the Belmont debate is over but it might have to wait until they reveal more of their plans. Also, I could end up eating some of my words if they have indeed thought about this stuff and have legitimate plans to keep costs down and place everyone in the class. Just being a rational skeptic for now... I rode my bike by Belmont earlier on my way home and it really is a beautiful campus in a great spot.

Also, I am really excited to have the chance to reiterate some of the concerns we highlighted last October (like whether showing demand for law degrees is more appropriate than demand for lawyers in determining whether to open up a law school) in front of people who are actually in a position to take action. Trust me when I say that I will be encouraging everyone in the room to check out this thread if they haven't already (although I suspect some of them have). This discussion offers a great lesson in how much a prospective law student has to learn before they move from an uninformed consumer of a JD to someone who can at least weigh the pros and cons of what they're getting themselves into.

[observationalist]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

Awesome, Ob!

Do me a favor and punch the Dean of Belmont Law in the face.

While I did not have to make any express promises not to punch someone in the face, I think it's implied that a newly-minted Esquire is not going to jeopardize his legal career by punchisizing the face of a well-regarded law school administrator. Been reading up on his background and he seems very much the sort of administrator who means well and strives to improve access to legal education. I just hope he's prepared for the possibility that, like many before him, he ends up in a no-win situation where he's forced to report better-than-actual job prospects or face losing his job. Had a great chat a few weeks ago with Bill Henderson again up at Indiana, and it seems there are a lot of people who have their hands tied when it comes to doing the right thing.

Is reasonable_man still out there?? I'd appreciate his input on this as well. Maybe if TLS reaches a general consensus on face-punching I will at least let him know he should be careful if he ever decides to pull a Dean Pless and start taking questions on TLS.

[Matthies]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

Awesome, Ob!

Do me a favor and punch the Dean of Belmont Law in the face.

While I did not have to make any express promises not to punch someone in the face, I think it's implied that a newly-minted Esquire is not going to jeopardize his legal career by punchisizing the face of a well-regarded law school administrator. Been reading up on his background and he seems very much the sort of administrator who means well and strives to improve access to legal education. I just hope he's prepared for the possibility that, like many before him, he ends up in a no-win situation where he's forced to report better-than-actual job prospects or face losing his job. Had a great chat a few weeks ago with Bill Henderson again up at Indiana, and it seems there are a lot of people who have their hands tied when it comes to doing the right thing.

Is reasonable_man still out there?? I'd appreciate his input on this as well. Maybe if TLS reaches a general consensus on face-punching I will at least let him know he should be careful if he ever decides to pull a Dean Pless and start taking questions on TLS.

Obvs, i think its great your moving forward with your ideas (been reading the press). As you know I don't exactly agree with your premise 100%, as we have debated and length more than once, but I do admire you sticking to your guns and promoting your view point, good luck.

The only thing I would like to see discussed that you may not be planning to bring up is schools doing their part to encourage students not to rely on them to find them jobs. Candid conversations about how the majority of law students, even in a good eceonomy won't find anything through OCI during orientation might, possibly, result in at least some of the student body being more proactive about their job search before they end up getting nothing through the school for 2L summer or even worse, no offered after the summer.
I'm sure you have seen the "northwestern kid sends out 50 resumes then gives up" article from the WSj by now, but that sentiment is way to common even now, even in this economy.

[observationalist]

Dear TLSers,

Just letting people know that I will be speaking next month on a panel discussion with the new Dean of Belmont Law at the Tennessee Bench Bar's annual meeting. I have been asked to present the students' perspective, as well as talk about Law School Transparency and our efforts to get all ABA-approved law schools on board with publishing full employment lists. I plan on using some of the comments in this thread to underscore concerns being raised by current and prospective law students about legal education and the need for reform, so if anyone has additional ideas please feel free to post. The panel discussion is entitled, "Does Tennessee Need More Lawyers?" and will explore how the growing number of lawyers impacts the bench and the bar, and how to ensure mentoring and maintaining collegiality. While I don't expect it to digress into a lot of finger-pointing, it does sound like some members of the Bar are concerned about another law school opening up in the state. I will probably encourage Belmont to avoid making claims that could mislead prospective law students into making inaccurate assessments of their potential job outlook, and then cite to examples of materials published by other law schools to show how the practice is industry-wide and needs to be reformed (if not regulated).

Other thoughts, send them along. And I will be citing your comments rather than claim them as my own observations, so if anyone comes up with something brilliant you will get all the credit.

Awesome, Ob!

Do me a favor and punch the Dean of Belmont Law in the face.

While I did not have to make any express promises not to punch someone in the face, I think it's implied that a newly-minted Esquire is not going to jeopardize his legal career by punchisizing the face of a well-regarded law school administrator. Been reading up on his background and he seems very much the sort of administrator who means well and strives to improve access to legal education. I just hope he's prepared for the possibility that, like many before him, he ends up in a no-win situation where he's forced to report better-than-actual job prospects or face losing his job. Had a great chat a few weeks ago with Bill Henderson again up at Indiana, and it seems there are a lot of people who have their hands tied when it comes to doing the right thing.

Is reasonable_man still out there?? I'd appreciate his input on this as well. Maybe if TLS reaches a general consensus on face-punching I will at least let him know he should be careful if he ever decides to pull a Dean Pless and start taking questions on TLS.

Obvs, i think its great your moving forward with your ideas (been reading the press). As you know I don't exactly agree with your premise 100%, as we have debated and length more than once, but I do admire you sticking to your guns and promoting your view point, good luck.

The only thing I would like to see discussed that you may not be planning to bring up is schools doing their part to encourage students not to rely on them to find them jobs. Candid conversations about how the majority of law students, even in a good eceonomy won't find anything through OCI during orientation might, possibly, result in at least some of the student body being more proactive about their job search before they end up getting nothing through the school for 2L summer or even worse, no offered after the summer.
I'm sure you have seen the "northwestern kid sends out 50 resumes then gives up" article from the WSj by now, but that sentiment is way to common even now, even in this economy.

Thanks Matthies... I think that's actually a great point to raise, especially seeing as there will be a lot of employers attending who aren't necessarily biglaw hiring partners and who would likely validate discussion about non-OCI paths to work in and around Nashville. I think OCI plans (and non-OCI) would be a good question to ask the new Dean about. I've definitely been telling 1Ls this year how important it is to get a job in the city they're targeting for 1L summer, even if its unpaid, and then take advantage of being on location to network all summer. If they can get some interviews out of the way and potentially an offer from an employer they like before the summer ends, they'll be much happier if and when OCI doesn't bounce back this year. And as you've pointed out many times most schools don't place primarily through OCI anyways, which probably will be the case for a new school before it's even provisionally accredited.

And if LST makes any progress in this initiative, maybe we can reconvene in a few years and see whether greater information has any impact on where prospectives decide to go to school (or whether they find ways to cut down on their debt loads, either by working for awhile before getting their JD or by accepting scholarships instead of paying full tuition. If you're right that prospective demand for law degrees won't change enough to make a difference and that the only viable solution is to restrict access to student loans, then I will hop on a plane to Colorado and buy you a beer.

[edit: encouraging the school to be forthcoming about the need for students to do their own work also has the benefit of appealing to the school's self-interest... if more of their students learn the game early on and secure employment, it will help the school's employment percentages and boost the school's USNews ranking (or at least boost reputation for a new school that has all eyes on its success or failure).