Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School: #TrustTheProcess Forum

[Nebby]

I think I'm also going to make a separate compilation of PI/Government, but based on total numbers and not percent of class size, it would be odd to qualify opting-out of the default (biglaw+fed clerk) as the same as the default. Make sense?

For instance, if one T14 has a class size of 200 and the other 400, but both send 30 people each to PI, the fact that they both send 30 people is equally valuable in terms of your ability to obtain a PI gig.

Feel free to persuade me in the opposite direction

Put it together in a google spreadsheet, include both raw and percentages. People can sort as they wish.

I will start compiling data once all the forms are out, but I am only exerting this much effort for the T20 schools

[krads153]

That sounds good, except I don't get why not as a percentage of the class. That makes more sense to me. But I'm also not an expert nor do I need to go to law school.

Utilizing C/O '14 data:
If someone is wondering, "hmm should I go to CLS or UVA for PI," the fact that CLS sent 6% to PI and UVA 4% to PI doesn't seem like a huge difference. But that difference is big if you're looking at total numbers, because CLS sent 29 to PI and UVA 15 to PI, which is almost twice as many students, but such insight cannot be gleaned by judging 4% to 6%.

Why can't the same argument be made for biglaw/fed clerks? CLS sends a ton more into biglaw than UVA and Harvard over Duke, etc. I'm not sure I understand the difference between biglaw/fed clerking and PI/gov, unless you're somehow implying that grades don't matter for the latter (which is not true).

[Nebby]

That sounds good, except I don't get why not as a percentage of the class. That makes more sense to me. But I'm also not an expert nor do I need to go to law school.

Utilizing C/O '14 data:
If someone is wondering, "hmm should I go to CLS or UVA for PI," the fact that CLS sent 6% to PI and UVA 4% to PI doesn't seem like a huge difference. But that difference is big if you're looking at total numbers, because CLS sent 29 to PI and UVA 15 to PI, which is almost twice as many students, but such insight cannot be gleaned by judging 4% to 6%.

Why can't the same argument be made for biglaw/fed clerks? CLS sends a ton more into biglaw than UVA and Harvard over Duke, etc. I'm not sure I understand the difference between biglaw/fed clerking and PI/gov, unless you're somehow implying that grades don't matter the latter (which is not true).

More so the former, minus fed clerk.

[cavalier1138]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

[krads153]

That sounds good, except I don't get why not as a percentage of the class. That makes more sense to me. But I'm also not an expert nor do I need to go to law school.

Utilizing C/O '14 data:
If someone is wondering, "hmm should I go to CLS or UVA for PI," the fact that CLS sent 6% to PI and UVA 4% to PI doesn't seem like a huge difference. But that difference is big if you're looking at total numbers, because CLS sent 29 to PI and UVA 15 to PI, which is almost twice as many students, but such insight cannot be gleaned by judging 4% to 6%.

Why can't the same argument be made for biglaw/fed clerks? CLS sends a ton more into biglaw than UVA and Harvard over Duke, etc. I'm not sure I understand the difference between biglaw/fed clerking and PI/gov, unless you're somehow implying that grades don't matter the latter (which is not true).

More so the former, minus fed clerk.

Yeah...I know my firm much more actively recruits at like CLS and NYU than the rest of the T-14, which is more or less viewed equally (minus HY and maybe S). But on raw percentages it might look otherwise because of larger class sizes.

My vote is also for absolute and percentages and just let people filter.

[lymenheimer]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

[krads153]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

[Nebby]

That sounds good, except I don't get why not as a percentage of the class. That makes more sense to me. But I'm also not an expert nor do I need to go to law school.

Utilizing C/O '14 data:
If someone is wondering, "hmm should I go to CLS or UVA for PI," the fact that CLS sent 6% to PI and UVA 4% to PI doesn't seem like a huge difference. But that difference is big if you're looking at total numbers, because CLS sent 29 to PI and UVA 15 to PI, which is almost twice as many students, but such insight cannot be gleaned by judging 4% to 6%.

Why can't the same argument be made for biglaw/fed clerks? CLS sends a ton more into biglaw than UVA and Harvard over Duke, etc. I'm not sure I understand the difference between biglaw/fed clerking and PI/gov, unless you're somehow implying that grades don't matter the latter (which is not true).

More so the former, minus fed clerk.

Yeah...I know my firm much more actively recruits at like CLS and NYU than the rest of the T-14, which is more or less viewed equally (minus HY and maybe S). But on raw percentages it might look otherwise because of larger class sizes.

My vote is also for absolute and percentages and just let people filter.

I mean my vote is to link people to LST, but I still like creating some content.

[zot1]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Yeah I think he means because the OP stats only show biglaw plus fed clerk.

[lymenheimer]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Yea. I mean that's kinda what I was getting at. If he meant by ABA, then he's wrong because they are calculated in. If he means by this thread, then he's an illiterate who can't read the previous 10 posts mentioning Nebby's plan to add PI/Gov. If he means TLS in general, then it's a very over-generalized statement and I was going to say the same thing re: most TLSers seem to be aiming biglaw.

[zot1]

Isn't that sad though? People getting into a lot of debt to be in biglaw?

[Tiago Splitter]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

A lot of the PI/Gov stuff is still school funded or otherwise not particularly good as an outcome. There is plenty of good PI/Gov stuff it's just hard to tell from the numbers.

[zot1]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

A lot of the PI/Gov stuff is still school funded or otherwise not particularly good as an outcome. There is plenty of good PI/Gov stuff it's just hard to tell from the numbers.

It depends on what you consider a good outcome. Someone might think 50K/yr for 40 hours/wk is better than 160K for whoever many hours in biglaw.

[krads153]

Isn't that sad though? People getting into a lot of debt to be in biglaw?

It's not just sad, it's stupid. And despite all of our warnings, a lot don't even listen.

Mainly I just post on here because I'm a bitter biglawyer lol.

[krads153]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

A lot of the PI/Gov stuff is still school funded or otherwise not particularly good as an outcome. There is plenty of good PI/Gov stuff it's just hard to tell from the numbers.

Wouldn't that only count as "short-term" or whatever? I thought we had information for that.

[Tiago Splitter]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

A lot of the PI/Gov stuff is still school funded or otherwise not particularly good as an outcome. There is plenty of good PI/Gov stuff it's just hard to tell from the numbers.

Wouldn't that only count as "short-term" or whatever? I thought we had information for that.

School funded is usually exactly one year so as to count long term. if we back out school funded it's probably not a bad metric.

[cavalier1138]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Yea. I mean that's kinda what I was getting at. If he meant by ABA, then he's wrong because they are calculated in. If he means by this thread, then he's an illiterate who can't read the previous 10 posts mentioning Nebby's plan to add PI/Gov. If he means TLS in general, then it's a very over-generalized statement and I was going to say the same thing re: most TLSers seem to be aiming biglaw.

Wow, between this and the guy commenting on the "low standards" of a poster who thinks that $160k is a good salary to start with out of school, you've successfully crushed my faith in humanity for the day.

This thread may very well be updated with PI information, but leaving it out in order to have employment statistics that make it look like 30% of the class at most major schools is basically not working any substantive field isn't just misleading; it's insulting. Believe it or not, many people go to law school with the intention of working in public service. Many of those people (horror of horrors) will even be paying off debt from school.

I get that most of the forum-goers here (like most students at T-14 schools) are aiming at biglaw careers. Completely dismissing PI as a worthwhile career field (which is precisely what ignoring those employment stats in the OP does) doesn't really help those of us who are interested in it think that we're going to find anything resembling good advice from this venue.

[zot1]

It's not entirely done out of a bad place. Nebby is actually in PI haha.

[Nebby]

Unrelated to whatever ya'll are talking about: People that scoff at school-funded don't really understand the point of school funded jobs. Of the grads I know who did their first year in a school funded position, it transitioned into a full-time position at the org or at another org doing same/similar work. PI orgs are very hesitant to hire entry-level precisely because they can hire a more experienced attorney who is willing to accept the same pay, because you go to a PI gig for the work itself. But a PI org has a better chance of hiring an entry-level attorney when they know they aren't responsible for the first year's salary.

School funded jobs serve the same purpose as a fellowship, but there aren't as many fellowships as there are grads so schools pick up the slack a bit. There are very few entry-level jobs at PI orgs.

[thereelfeels]

Pitt: http://www.law.pitt.edu/sites/default/f ... t_2015.pdf

100+: 12.2%
Fed Clerk: 1.5%
Total: 13.7% (2014: 11.3%)

Total LT/FT Bar Pass Req'd: 53.5% (2014: 52.4%)

[lymenheimer]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Yea. I mean that's kinda what I was getting at. If he meant by ABA, then he's wrong because they are calculated in. If he means by this thread, then he's an illiterate who can't read the previous 10 posts mentioning Nebby's plan to add PI/Gov. If he means TLS in general, then it's a very over-generalized statement and I was going to say the same thing re: most TLSers seem to be aiming biglaw.

Wow, between this and the guy commenting on the "low standards" of a poster who thinks that $160k is a good salary to start with out of school, you've successfully crushed my faith in humanity for the day.

This thread may very well be updated with PI information, but leaving it out in order to have employment statistics that make it look like 30% of the class at most major schools is basically not working any substantive field isn't just misleading; it's insulting. Believe it or not, many people go to law school with the intention of working in public service. Many of those people (horror of horrors) will even be paying off debt from school.

I get that most of the forum-goers here (like most students at T-14 schools) are aiming at biglaw careers. Completely dismissing PI as a worthwhile career field (which is precisely what ignoring those employment stats in the OP does) doesn't really help those of us who are interested in it think that we're going to find anything resembling good advice from this venue.

Great. So now that we've established you're illiterate, I think we can ignore you.

[Nebby]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Yea. I mean that's kinda what I was getting at. If he meant by ABA, then he's wrong because they are calculated in. If he means by this thread, then he's an illiterate who can't read the previous 10 posts mentioning Nebby's plan to add PI/Gov. If he means TLS in general, then it's a very over-generalized statement and I was going to say the same thing re: most TLSers seem to be aiming biglaw.

Wow, between this and the guy commenting on the "low standards" of a poster who thinks that $160k is a good salary to start with out of school, you've successfully crushed my faith in humanity for the day.

This thread may very well be updated with PI information, but leaving it out in order to have employment statistics that make it look like 30% of the class at most major schools is basically not working any substantive field isn't just misleading; it's insulting. Believe it or not, many people go to law school with the intention of working in public service. Many of those people (horror of horrors) will even be paying off debt from school.

I get that most of the forum-goers here (like most students at T-14 schools) are aiming at biglaw careers. Completely dismissing PI as a worthwhile career field (which is precisely what ignoring those employment stats in the OP does) doesn't really help those of us who are interested in it think that we're going to find anything resembling good advice from this venue.

I personally would prefer to have this thread in the legal employment part of the fora, because people in that forum are more attune to the data that is being talked about in here. I don't want any prospective law student to rely on what I think or don't think is important in terms of data. I think prosepctive students should hit up http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ as the absolutely best tool for employment stats

[krads153]

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that PI/government work isn't considered employment?

by whom?

I guess by TLS? My guess is that most TLSers are disproportionately broke and a lot of us take out huge loans for law school and therefore are tied down to doing biglaw in order pay debt down more quickly.

Once you get to law school you'll realize that there's a shitload of rich kids who aren't planning on doing biglaw in the first place (or just doing it for like a year before quitting). I like circulating the below link, because it shows that roughly 1/3 of law school graduates (at least in the T-14 and at certain schools even 40%) don't have any law school debt whatsoever. I would guess that most of those people aren't posting on TLS nor do they care about working in biglaw. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Yea. I mean that's kinda what I was getting at. If he meant by ABA, then he's wrong because they are calculated in. If he means by this thread, then he's an illiterate who can't read the previous 10 posts mentioning Nebby's plan to add PI/Gov. If he means TLS in general, then it's a very over-generalized statement and I was going to say the same thing re: most TLSers seem to be aiming biglaw.

Wow, between this and the guy commenting on the "low standards" of a poster who thinks that $160k is a good salary to start with out of school, you've successfully crushed my faith in humanity for the day.

This thread may very well be updated with PI information, but leaving it out in order to have employment statistics that make it look like 30% of the class at most major schools is basically not working any substantive field isn't just misleading; it's insulting. Believe it or not, many people go to law school with the intention of working in public service. Many of those people (horror of horrors) will even be paying off debt from school.

I get that most of the forum-goers here (like most students at T-14 schools) are aiming at biglaw careers. Completely dismissing PI as a worthwhile career field (which is precisely what ignoring those employment stats in the OP does) doesn't really help those of us who are interested in it think that we're going to find anything resembling good advice from this venue.

Great. So now that we've established you're illiterate, I think we can ignore you.

lol.

To cavalier: I'm the person who said 160k is not "living well" in NYC. I stand by that statement, but NYC/SF, etc. are unusual places in the United States. You can easily "live well" off 50k/60k in other parts of the country.

Also, you shouldn't take this so personally. We aren't discounting PI as real, legal jobs. Although I'm in biglaw, my spouse is a hiring attorney in PI in NYC who has only done PI and has no intention of working in a firm. (But yeah, like a lot of other PI attorneys, my spouse had no loans and also sort of has a trust fund, which is why I made that point about people who don't have debt going into PI/government.)

[zot1]

Since you're in biglaw your spouse likely doesn't need that trust fund. I can haz plz?

[krads153]

Since you're in biglaw your spouse likely doesn't need that trust fund. I can haz plz?

Lol. We can't access it until 50 or at some age where there's pretty much no point in having all that money since you're too old to enjoy it. I also don't plan on staying in biglaw for the long term (god-willing).....