The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

[kalvano]

The problem w working in biglaw or similar firms who do corporate defense is not just length of hours but inability to respect free time and variability of schedule

Oh you scheduled a nice night on the town w your so?

Sorry dude a deal is heating up today. You gotta work until 3 am for a couple days

Working 8-8 every day is tiring but not horrible

Working until 2 am for 4 days in a row then the next week sitting on your hands and wondering where your hours are going to come from because you're not staffed on any active deals

Is a very stressful way to go about life

At least on the corporate side, the variability really interacts in a bad way with the "face time" requirements. You get into the office at 9 because that's when the partner you work for does, watch ESPN 360 until 4 pm and maybe do an hour of billable work in that time, and then the client drops a whole bunch of documents on your lap and you have to work until 2am because he needs them by the morning.

How do biglaw associates maintain a marriage/family? I can't imagine a wife will be pleased if she has to eat dinner alone and raise a kid by herself for too long. Biglaw sounds like a really miserable way to spend several years, in NYC anyway.

You often don't. I had to make a particular effort to be home in time to put my son to bed a lot of nights, and I don't think it was terribly appreciated that I left to do so. Keep in mind, by home in time, I mean home by 7:30 or so, and I was at work at 7:30 or earlier that morning.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

That's pretty bad, and you're in Dallas biglaw, right?

[kalvano]

I was. I got offered a job at a smaller firm and I took it. Don't get me wrong, the people were pleasant enough, but there is an atmosphere that I think is prevalent in all large firms that, no matter how much you're doing or giving, it is not and never will be enough. The senior associate in my group billed over 2500 hours and was worried that she hadn't done enough.

[IAFG]

Serious question: I'm shooting for big/mid law in a secondary market. I realize the pay isn't as high, but is it just as demanding work?

I'm in a job like you describe. It's better, but not as much better as you might hope.

[IAFG]

How do biglaw associates maintain a marriage/family? I can't imagine a wife will be pleased if she has to eat dinner alone and raise a kid by herself for too long. Biglaw sounds like a really miserable way to spend several years, in NYC anyway.

My husband and I have both been on opposite sides (first I stayed home while he did biglaw, now he has a "normal" job while I am in mid/biglaw) and it hasn't been hard on our marriage at all because we both get it, and we are supportive of each other's careers. If your spouse doesn't really believe you that you have to stay late, you're gonna have a bad time.

[bjsesq]

How do biglaw associates maintain a marriage/family? I can't imagine a wife will be pleased if she has to eat dinner alone and raise a kid by herself for too long. Biglaw sounds like a really miserable way to spend several years, in NYC anyway.

My husband and I have both been on opposite sides (first I stayed home while he did biglaw, now he has a "normal" job while I am in mid/biglaw) and it hasn't been hard on our marriage at all because we both get it, and we are supportive of each other's careers. If your spouse doesn't really believe you that you have to stay late, you're gonna have a bad time.

And because you are both sperglords. <3

[IAFG]

How do biglaw associates maintain a marriage/family? I can't imagine a wife will be pleased if she has to eat dinner alone and raise a kid by herself for too long. Biglaw sounds like a really miserable way to spend several years, in NYC anyway.

My husband and I have both been on opposite sides (first I stayed home while he did biglaw, now he has a "normal" job while I am in mid/biglaw) and it hasn't been hard on our marriage at all because we both get it, and we are supportive of each other's careers. If your spouse doesn't really believe you that you have to stay late, you're gonna have a bad time.

And because you are both sperglords. <3

Right, my husband is OP.

[rad lulz]

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[jk148706]

Serious question: I'm shooting for big/mid law in a secondary market. I realize the pay isn't as high, but is it just as demanding work?

I'm in a job like you describe. It's better, but not as much better as you might hope.

What I thought. Thanks

[IAFG]

Serious question: I'm shooting for big/mid law in a secondary market. I realize the pay isn't as high, but is it just as demanding work?

I'm in a job like you describe. It's better, but not as much better as you might hope.

I do secondary mkt shit and I work from 9-6:30 or 7 w an hr at home or so

Billable goal is 2000

Crazy stuff does happen though

Had to stay at work until almost 11 pm to make a midnight deadline on a Friday (cancelled plans), was told one Friday I had to come in Sunday then billed 9.5 hrs that Sunday bc Monday deadline, etc.

Mine is more like 1800

[09042014]

Engineering is harder and more miserable than law school if you aren't good at math/science. I'd take law school over the upper level math and science courses I took any day, well at least most days lol. And the classes I took are probably entry-level for engineering (multivar. calc/organic chem/etc.) Better job outlook, sure, but you have to be able to make it through the "weed out" classes. The good thing is that you can dip your toe in before completely committing yourself to it.

I have no doubt engineering is tough. I've got a few engineers in my family and I was actually considering it when I started college but changed my mind because I "wanted to do something different". Yeah...

Organic chemistry isn't an engineering class unless you're a chemical engineer.

The good news about engineering (depending on the school) is that you can graduate with a 2.X GPA and still get a job. You don't need to be smart (at most schools) or do well to get an engineering degree - you just have to pass.

Getting a 2.6 in engineering at a semi respectable school isn't easy. They weed people out. It's not like liberal arts classes where you get a C for writing your name down and a B for writing in english (though oddly writing in english isn't really required for engineering).

They also typically curve Core classes to a B/B- median. That results in a low average gpa.

You don't have to be smart, but if you aren't smart you have to work very very hard.

[09042014]

So, I'm a 0L who is currently employed as a high school educator. Together with my SO we have 100k+ in UG debt and maybe make 60k together. We live in Manhattan. My job is pretty miserable, I regularly come home ready to quit. My hours in school aren't big-law-ish, but the additional time planning definitely brings it up. While I do have "fulfilling" moments, I really dislike the whole thing.

So what everyone is saying about big law? Sounds great to me. 100k more, I get to work with psychopaths that are marginally intelligent, and get to sit in an air-conditioned office? Getting yelled at by partners at a big law firm rather than shitty adolescents? Sign me up.

Me: naive, stupid, broken, or other?

My wife is a teacher. Your job is in no way comparable to the unpleasantness of Biglaw.

LO-Fucking-L

If you can't hack being a school teacher, stay the fuck away from big law. It will break you.

[Theopliske8711]

How do biglaw associates maintain a marriage/family? I can't imagine a wife will be pleased if she has to eat dinner alone and raise a kid by herself for too long. Biglaw sounds like a really miserable way to spend several years, in NYC anyway.

My husband and I have both been on opposite sides (first I stayed home while he did biglaw, now he has a "normal" job while I am in mid/biglaw) and it hasn't been hard on our marriage at all because we both get it, and we are supportive of each other's careers. If your spouse doesn't really believe you that you have to stay late, you're gonna have a bad time.

This is pretty much a common phenomenon for "highly educated" people in the upper social/economic bracket of America.

This article pretty much gets it: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... ?insrc=whc

What most differentiates them is their total absorption in two things—their careers and their children. They devote extremely long hours to their professions, which often require them to be electronically available at almost all hours. According to Wolf’s data, upper-middle-class couples now work on average more hours per day than the rest of the population, and unlike the lower classes, they have no more leisure time now than they did in the 1960s. Contrary to what one might expect, upper-middle-class women usually return to work full-time after childbirth, whereas other women more often stop paid work at least temporarily or return only part-time. As Wolf points out, for upper-middle-class women to interrupt their careers means large sacrifices of opportunity. Moreover, their income is usually sufficient to cover the considerable expense of hiring nannies or other forms of child care. But even more important than the money is the fact that for these women, their sense of identity is tied to their professions. They are full participants in what James Surowiecki recently called “the cult of overwork.”

[sd5289]

But all you have to do is "work hard"

Step 1: work hard.

Step 2: ...

Step 3: profit.

[Otunga]

So, I'm a 0L who is currently employed as a high school educator. Together with my SO we have 100k+ in UG debt and maybe make 60k together. We live in Manhattan. My job is pretty miserable, I regularly come home ready to quit. My hours in school aren't big-law-ish, but the additional time planning definitely brings it up. While I do have "fulfilling" moments, I really dislike the whole thing.

So what everyone is saying about big law? Sounds great to me. 100k more, I get to work with psychopaths that are marginally intelligent, and get to sit in an air-conditioned office? Getting yelled at by partners at a big law firm rather than shitty adolescents? Sign me up.

Me: naive, stupid, broken, or other?

My wife is a teacher. Your job is in no way comparable to the unpleasantness of Biglaw.

LO-Fucking-L

If you can't hack being a school teacher, stay the fuck away from big law. It will break you.

I think somebody can hate teaching for quite different reasons than they hate biglaw. Maybe they're better off being a hermit at a desk doing doc review for endless hours than being in front of kids at all. Granted, biglaw has to be objectively more taxing, significantly, simply due to the differences in hours. As a 0L, I would bet biglaw sucks way, way, way more, but just because the person hates their teaching job it doesn't mean they're not cut out for biglaw.

[timbs4339]

The problem with 0Ls is that they are basically kids who grew up in a country where everyone respectable tells you from birth that you need to get a college education to be somebody. And then when it turns out everyone has a college education, the answer is that you need to get more education, and there's this great law school down the street that will welcome you even if you have no special skills. Even better, they won't make you do any math. And the government will give you money to drink beer for three years.

You believe these people and internalize these norms, until the point when the first student loan bill come in and shit gets real.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Serious question: I'm shooting for big/mid law in a secondary market. I realize the pay isn't as high, but is it just as demanding work?

I'm in a job like you describe. It's better, but not as much better as you might hope.

I do secondary mkt shit and I work from 9-6:30 or 7 w an hr at home or so

Billable goal is 2000

Crazy stuff does happen though

Had to stay at work until almost 11 pm to make a midnight deadline on a Friday (cancelled plans), was told one Friday I had to come in Sunday then billed 9.5 hrs that Sunday bc Monday deadline, etc.

Is this biglaw? Do you mind detailing market/salary? If not, no worries because that is intrusive, but that sounds way more manageable than what kalvano describes of TX biglaw. I feel like I could handle this, but regular 13hr/day weeks and 10-20hr weekends may break me.

[bruinfan10]

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[rad lulz]

Serious question: I'm shooting for big/mid law in a secondary market. I realize the pay isn't as high, but is it just as demanding work?

I'm in a job like you describe. It's better, but not as much better as you might hope.

I do secondary mkt shit and I work from 9-6:30 or 7 w an hr at home or so

Billable goal is 2000

Crazy stuff does happen though

Had to stay at work until almost 11 pm to make a midnight deadline on a Friday (cancelled plans), was told one Friday I had to come in Sunday then billed 9.5 hrs that Sunday bc Monday deadline, etc.

Is this biglaw? Do you mind detailing market/salary? If not, no worries because that is intrusive, but that sounds way more manageable than what kalvano describes of TX biglaw. I feel like I could handle this, but regular 13hr/day weeks and 10-20hr weekends may break me.

Work at a boutique that does work for corporate clients (aka "biglaw" work)

(Side note you can be a big firm with a lot of people but not "biglaw" in the way people think about it if you're just an ID mill or plaintiffs PI mill or whatever)

Manageable but I do agree w ray that the debt ads a certain very stressful element to it

[rayiner]

I don't understand the megapoasters' point in this thread? You were idiots and decided to work NYC biglaw, and now you're....taking it out on 0Ls, for some reason? You think working at DPW in Manhattan is "winning," or something? Anyone with a pulse at a T14 has a realistic shot at NYC Biglaw--it's the most forgiving market in the country--but you do realize a lot of us work our asses off *after* 1L to avoid the shit that you're living right now, don't you? SMDH.

I agree that NYC big law is the hardest market in terms of QoL, but your rant is misplaced. NYC has something like 25% of all the summer associate positions in the whole country. Not bidding NYC is a great way to strike out at OCI. From the perspective of a 0L considering law school, taking NYC off the table just shifts the risk around. Instead of the high risk of hating NYC big law, you now have a high risk of not getting a job, even from a T14.

Also, non-NYC firms tend to have other cultural problems. At least at most of the NYC V10 (which account for maybe 1/6 of all SA jobs in the country), you don't have to worry about no-offers, or getting laid off as a first/second year because there's no work. There was some touchy times during the recession, but I never heard of first/second years getting stealthed, and now even though the economy is still soft, these firms are still extremely busy. There's no hoarding of work or sitting around worrying about not making your hours.

[jbagelboy]

Thoughts on CA biglaw? (V30 offices in LA, SF, OC). Lots of talk about ny here

Or V50 or whatever not trying to be arbitrary, "top firms"

[bruinfan10]

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[ph14]

Thoughts on CA biglaw? (V30 offices in LA, SF, OC). Lots of talk about ny here

Or V50 or whatever not trying to be arbitrary, "top firms"

Speaking at a very high level of generality and acknowledging that firms vary widely to the point where it is difficult to generalize, it seems slightly better in that CA has less of the NYC workaholic culture and less pressure to be in the office at all hours of the day and night. But the lawyers working in CA biglaw still work very hard and I want to emphasize that the difference isn't that big.

[kalvano]

Serious question: I'm shooting for big/mid law in a secondary market. I realize the pay isn't as high, but is it just as demanding work?

I'm in a job like you describe. It's better, but not as much better as you might hope.

I do secondary mkt shit and I work from 9-6:30 or 7 w an hr at home or so

Billable goal is 2000

Crazy stuff does happen though

Had to stay at work until almost 11 pm to make a midnight deadline on a Friday (cancelled plans), was told one Friday I had to come in Sunday then billed 9.5 hrs that Sunday bc Monday deadline, etc.

Is this biglaw? Do you mind detailing market/salary? If not, no worries because that is intrusive, but that sounds way more manageable than what kalvano describes of TX biglaw. I feel like I could handle this, but regular 13hr/day weeks and 10-20hr weekends may break me.

I didn't say there were 10-20 hours on the weekend (although weekend work was not unusual). And no one ever complained that I wasn't working hard enough, it's just a general big firm atmosphere that, no matter how much you've done, it's never quite enough. One of my friends is at a very large Texas-based firm (national, whereas mine was more regional) and she routinely works 65+ hours a week. It's definitely not unusual to call her on the weekend and find her in the office.

[Lwoods]

Thoughts on CA biglaw? (V30 offices in LA, SF, OC). Lots of talk about ny here

Or V50 or whatever not trying to be arbitrary, "top firms"

Speaking at a very high level of generality and acknowledging that firms vary widely to the point where it is difficult to generalize, it seems slightly better in that CA has less of the NYC workaholic culture and less pressure to be in the office at all hours of the day and night. But the lawyers working in CA biglaw still work very hard and I want to emphasize that the difference isn't that big.

I'm in SoCal, and my remarks were about firms here, of all sizes since I cast a wide net. Different firms are in different economic states. I suspect this may be related to how the firms reacted to the downturn 5 years ago. I agree with ph14 about the overall pace of the cities (though SF may be more like NY). However, you're going to want to look for a firm that has hours.

Anecdata:
I have a friend who recently left a V50 after several years there because there was no work. Nearly all of her practice group in that office was advised to find other opportunities. Their billables were all very low.
Similarly, a V100 no-offered 1 of its 3 summers for economic reasons. I know people may view the economic claims skeptically, but I had been talking to the firm for over a year and was told the same.
Meanwhile, another friend is an associate at a different V50. She's super busy and traveling frequently for work. She seems pretty happy.

For any rising 2Ls reading this thread: ask about the amount of work available. Do so in a way that demonstrates you want work, not that you're a lazy bum concerned about work/life balance.

Also, to 0Ls looking at the numbers, you hopefully already know this, but remember that not everything you do is billable. 40 billable hours/ week doesn't mean 8-5 M-F with an hour for lunch every day. You'll be working more hours than you're billing. And smaller firms have similar billable hour requirements (1850+) for much lower pay.