Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[LRGhost]

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

Examples?

Any small law job or smaller 'Big' Law/boutiques.

[lawschool22]

Doesn't big law provide better exit opportunities than most anything else though? Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that most people don't see it as the end goal.

I really think it's hit or miss. Just like there's a glut of people trying to get Biglaw jobs, there's also a glut of people exiting Biglaw. If you want to lateral to midlaw, it's more about your ability to build business. If you don't have any business, who's going to want to hire you? I guess you could try and to to the plaintiff side, but those firms prefer people with PI experience. Biglaw's definitely preferred if you want to go in-house, though. But those jobs are competitive even for people with Biglaw on their resume.

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

Breaking news: desirable jobs are competitive and require you to bring skills and/or experience.

[star fox]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

This is the correct response.

It's to the point where even Biglaw is a risky bet to pay off sticker debt at the T14. And that's if you get Biglaw. At anywhere but Georgetown, chances are slightly in favor of getting biglaw, but it's far from guaranteed. Then you're really screwed.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw looks really shiny and prestigious from an 0L perspective, but once you graduate and start working there, many people absolutely hate their life, and start wondering why they opted to take on all that extra debt to obtain Biglaw just so they could make enough money to pay off their Biglaw debt. Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

The fact that tuition is STILL going up is just another sign that there's too many people out there with stars in their eyes that really don't get it. Columbia, Cornell, Northwestern, Berkeley, and NYU cost over a quarter-million dollars at sticker with COL and interest factored in. That's ridiculous.

Yeah life sucks. I feel like it's that way for everyone. The people in big time prestigious professional jobs hate their lives because all they do is work, the people who aren't hate being so broke all the time.

TCR is Retake Life ED Trust Fund Baby

[Dr. Filth]

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

Examples?

Any small law job or smaller 'Big' Law/boutiques.

oh so i should just go to a boutique instead of a firm that hires one hundred summers. tytyty

[04102014]

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

Examples?

Any small law job or smaller 'Big' Law/boutiques.

oh so i should just go to a boutique instead of a firm that hires one hundred summers. tytyty

Looked at your tar after reading that post.

/ded

[Paul Campos]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

[star fox]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Bummer.

Well, I guess a 70K Staff Attorney's better than no job at all.

[Otunga]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Thanks for the clarification on the placement.

I gather that what you're saying is generally insider info? Are schools not required to distinguish partner track from staff attorney at biglaw?

[BigZuck]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Sorry prof, but pics or it didn't happen

I'm all for this being the rally cry of the doom and gloomers and I'm not even saying its not true, but continually saying it without any proof isn't helping.

You've gotta give us something more than that or you're just brucewaynecougaring us

[logicspeaks]

UCLA is up https://www.law.ucla.edu/career-service ... stics.aspx

32.5 + 6.9 = 39.5%

[JCougar]

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

Examples?

Any small law job or smaller 'Big' Law/boutiques.

Boutique firms, almost any government job that involves litigation (including PD), lots of public interest positions. You may see the inside of the courtroom in any of these places within a year or two if you're any good. People in Biglaw all have the same complaint. "I never get an opportunity!"

[Paul Campos]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Thanks for the clarification on the placement.

I gather that what you're saying is generally insider info? Are schools not required to distinguish partner track from staff attorney at biglaw?

No they aren't, and in fact in some cases the school won't necessarily know, although it's pretty easy to guess. As a general rule, of course, the lower a school is ranked, the higher the percentage of 100+ attorney jobs which aren't partner track. At an unranked school most if not all of the big firm jobs are staff attorney positions. At a mid-level school it'll probably be something close to a 50/50 split. At a sub-elite school it'll be an 80/20 or 90/10 split. At an elite school practically all will be partner track.

(sorry for the typo edits using phone with mircoscopic keyboard)

[LRGhost]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Sorry prof, but pics or it didn't happen

I'm all for this being the rally cry of the doom and gloomers and I'm not even saying its not true, but continually saying it without any proof isn't helping.

You've gotta give us something more than that or you're just brucewaynecougaring us

Proof is that it's Paul motherfucking Campos.

[BigZuck]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Sorry prof, but pics or it didn't happen

I'm all for this being the rally cry of the doom and gloomers and I'm not even saying its not true, but continually saying it without any proof isn't helping.

You've gotta give us something more than that or you're just brucewaynecougaring us

Proof is that it's Paul motherfucking Campos.

[LRGhost]

[californiauser]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Can you give the school's range? I'm sure it wasn't a T20 school...

[Otunga]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

Can you give the school's range? I'm sure it wasn't a T20 school...

I looked at WUSTL's quantity of 100+ people and it wasn't half of the biglaw placement. But I remain skeptical about the numbers in that category now from any school, aside from T10 or something.

[LRGhost]

Not to derail, but when people talk about exit options as a default solution or result, there are plenty of people talking about that. Here is one post on ITLSS.

Pertinent part about a laid-off lawyer:

Code: Select all

My wife has not been especially understanding about my situation.  I think her thinking has been that of course someone with my resume can easily find a job, and since I haven’t, the problem must be that I am not trying very hard, which she resents.  That all changed, however, when I showed her this.  I had printed it out on paper, along with all of the comments that had been posted in the first 12 hours.  It was about 100 pages long.  Someone with better credentials than I is living in his father’s basement and has sent out 700+ resumes with no results.  Somehow it was comforting and made us sick to our stomachs at the same time.  Then there were your comments about how little information there is about long-term career outcomes and your question about what happens after the top law school and the big law firm – yes, FINALLY, someone else is asking “What happens to all the lawyers?”!  Then the comments.  So many comments.  So many lawyers out of work, in debt, with no hope.  The stack of paper alone was enough to bring tears to my wife’s eyes.  When I told her that all of the comments had been posted since 5:58 a.m. that morning, she broke down and cried. 

I wasn't trying to derail the thread into a debate the merits of Big Law as a good way to start a legal career. It's just sort of pot meeting the kettle and kicking in the nuts to shit on crappy schools without acknowledging that 'winning' from a good school might not be all that great either even if it is in many ways better.

[Blessedassurance]

Just a word of caution: using 100+ lawyer firm employment as a proxy for market-paying Big Law jobs is becoming an increasingly inaccurate metric. I know of one school on this list (I'm not at liberty to say which as a faculty member there gave me the info in confidence) where half the 2013 "big law" jobs are actually staff attorney positions -- basically managing doc review at $60K-$80K per year. Not that that's a terrible outcome these days by any means, but those aren't partner track/market-paying jobs.

i raised this issue a while back which eventually resulted in my ban (the shitmods ban me every time i say something someone doesn't want to hear). granted there were other tangential issues. i digress.

in any event, the flipside is that a lot of uber-prestigious firms/boutiques have less than a 100 lawyers which results in under-inclusion among the very, very top schools whose students are more likely to secure such positions. of course, this disclaimer shouldn't concern most students but it is worth mentioning.

[cotiger]

Stanford's total is actually 77.8%

[04102014]

Stanford's total is actually 77.8%

Ruthless

[JCougar]

TCR is Retake Life ED Trust Fund Baby

Too be honest, TCR is to go to a school that gives you a full scholly, live with family/SO during law school to cover COL, and still get Biglaw. That way you can quit whenever you feel it's appropriate.

I'm not against Biglaw per se, as any entry-level legal job is going to be a lot of mind-numbing busywork and redundant editing/binder-making/doc review, etc. I just think people should be wary about trapping themselves in a job they're either going to hate or not last much more than a year in.

[cotiger]

Stanford's total is actually 77.8%

Ruthless

Trying to hold the barbarian hordes at bay. Barely hanging on.

USC's is up: --LinkRemoved--

29.8 + 3.8 = 33.6%

[Caesar Salad]

Not sure if I calculated this appropriately, but Seton Hall:

http://law.shu.edu/Admissions/upload/AB ... ll-Law.pdf

10.2+1.1=11.3%

[downinDtown]

TCR is Retake Life ED Trust Fund Baby

Any billionaires looking to adopt?