what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment?? Forum

[dixiecupdrinking]

I hear what you guys are saying, but if anyone will hire you, it is a jumping off point. A starting salary is just that. A start. If you are a college senior planning to go to law school I have to suspect you haven't tried to get employed yet.

Yeah, I just think that a) the jobs are truly difficult to come by, and b) there isn't a lot of upward mobility. I know a lot of people who started out in NYC working entry level jobs for 3-5 years in government, non-profits, advertising/sales/etc. in the private sector, paralegaling, working in creative fields, etc., and 95% of people seem to have hit a ceiling where you can't make more money and you can't get promoted.

I can't really speak to how it works in the financial industry or things like engineering or computer science type work. But for most jobs that you can get with a liberal arts degree, even if you can find an entry level job, it generally seems difficult to impossible to parlay it into a satisfactory career without going to grad school at some point.

[laxbrah420]

My only point in this thread was that opportunity costs over 3 years post graduation for someone smart enough to get into a T14, no matter what their major was or the condition of the job market, are not ZERO. Most likely it's not $300,000 but ~$100k (untaxed) is still a reasonable consideration.

[20130312]

My only point in this thread was that opportunity costs over 3 years post graduation for someone smart enough to get into a T14, no matter what their major was or the condition of the job market, are not ZERO. Most likely it's not $300,000 but ~$100k (untaxed) is still a reasonable consideration.

Yes, for all you humanity majors with good GPAs, $34k /yr jobs await you, despite what that chart on the last page said.

ETA the chart to which I'm referring:

[whitman]

This chart covers all graduates in all parts of the country, I assume. Meaning it's included people from the 8th best state school in their state who are working in Paducah. You'd most likely have to adjust the figure based on city and school, and to get an accurate picture of what most of you and your friends have experienced, I would guess that adjustment would be upward. Not saying things are great, though.

[IAFG]

I hear what you guys are saying, but if anyone will hire you, it is a jumping off point. A starting salary is just that. A start. If you are a college senior planning to go to law school I have to suspect you haven't tried to get employed yet.

Yeah, I just think that a) the jobs are truly difficult to come by, and b) there isn't a lot of upward mobility. I know a lot of people who started out in NYC working entry level jobs for 3-5 years in government, non-profits, advertising/sales/etc. in the private sector, paralegaling, working in creative fields, etc., and 95% of people seem to have hit a ceiling where you can't make more money and you can't get promoted.

I can't really speak to how it works in the financial industry or things like engineering or computer science type work. But for most jobs that you can get with a liberal arts degree, even if you can find an entry level job, it generally seems difficult to impossible to parlay it into a satisfactory career without going to grad school at some point.

And those people often get a grad degree at that point (often while working). Sometimes even subsidized by the employer. 3-5 years out is a much better time to pick out an advanced degree and to determine if one is necessary at all. Especially one that costs $200k. Even if it's true that you will need one for advancement, that really doesn't defend K-JDing.

[moneybagsphd]

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

Either you can't read particularly well, or you're just a WASP snob who got a hard on at the opportunity to comment on the hierarchy of undergrads. My guess is that it's a combination of both.

That post was made while quoting his comment that only people at Community colleges are struggling to find jobs straight out of undergrad; I was telling him that this is far from the truth and that graduates of most average colleges are struggling as well.

Don't be an asshole. I am well-aware of the argument laxbrah420's idiotic post has generated. It doesn't excuse your shitty list. Otherwise, I agree with you. I haven't been able to find so much as a retail job out of [redacted] with a high GPA (humanities major).

[Odd Future Wolf Gang]

I haven't been able to find so much as a retail job out of UC Berkeley with a high GPA (humanities major).

When did you graduate? On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate your personality?

[BruceWayne]

Good thing you only pay law school debt off once while a prestigious law degree lasts a lifetime..

Yeah PREFTIGE is for life. But biglaw gigs will probably last only 7-8 years MAX (most likely shorter) for 99% of people, most of which will be spent paying off 200k+ of law school debt. Then you will probably take a substantial pay cut to a smaller firm/in-house/govt, probably earning 80-100k. Assuming you didn't major in PHILOSOPHY or GENDER AND RACE THEORY, I am willing to bet that in that 10-11 years' time a lot of the people who had the credentials/intelligence to get into a T14 can probably end up in a similar place (in terms of earnings) at some company without going into law and all that fucking stress and striving. But landing biglaw debt free/minimal debt is pretty fucking boss though.

LOL I guess you go to a prestigious undergrad or something. Most people NEVER make the kind income that even a first year biglaw associate makes. And I literally mean never.

Don't be an asshole. I am well-aware of the argument laxbrah420's idiotic post has generated. It doesn't excuse your shitty list. Otherwise, I agree with you. I haven't been able to find so much as a retail job out of UC Berkeley with a high GPA (humanities major).

Again, if you think that my list was "shitty" you didn't understand the conversation. Because I assure you, the vast majority of graduating seniors from all of those schools are struggling to find employment. It wasn't a prestige list; it was a list of decent schools (i.e the kind that he thought were good enough to guarantee that most of their grads found employment). I'm not sure why that's going over your head.

[09042014]

My only point in this thread was that opportunity costs over 3 years post graduation for someone smart enough to get into a T14, no matter what their major was or the condition of the job market, are not ZERO. Most likely it's not $300,000 but ~$100k (untaxed) is still a reasonable consideration.

I agree. However, people also overestimate the cost of attending school. The money you are borrowing for living expenses would exist if you didn't go to school. If you could have made 40K a year. And your school costs 66.66K a year tuition + COL. Your total cost of law school isn't 320K.

Because much of that 40K would have gone to living expenses or taxes or frivolous spending that don't give long lasting benefits. So you should really only include how much your net worth would have risen over those three years. For most people that's really only 20-40K over the entire three years.

Though I think, trying a career, and making a choice after a few years is a better option.

[Errzii]

Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

lol anti UCR trolling

[Simplicity]

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life; however, my friend in Dallas says he usually works about 80 hour weeks.

I have no desire to do IB, but a few jobs are definitely out there.

By and large (really overwhelmingly) Ibanking jobs are located in NYC. And I'm still trying to figure out how your comment that you have a friend who works 80 hour work weeks contradicts my statement that QOL for Ibanking is terrible.

Again, that's not really true. While the majority of IB positions are in NYC, there are many others in cities such as SF, Houston, Dallas, and Salt Lake City, just to name a few. Also, there are quite a few IB positions in countries such as the UK and Switzerland.

As to your other point, that's not what your said in the original post I replied to. But I'm not gonna argue semantics with you.

[eaper]

My only point in this thread was that opportunity costs over 3 years post graduation for someone smart enough to get into a T14, no matter what their major was or the condition of the job market, are not ZERO. Most likely it's not $300,000 but ~$100k (untaxed) is still a reasonable consideration.

I agree. However, people also overestimate the cost of attending school. The money you are borrowing for living expenses would exist if you didn't go to school. If you could have made 40K a year. And your school costs 66.66K a year tuition + COL. Your total cost of law school isn't 320K.

Because much of that 40K would have gone to living expenses or taxes or frivolous spending that don't give long lasting benefits. So you should really only include how much your net worth would have risen over those three years. For most people that's really only 20-40K over the entire three years.

Though I think, trying a career, and making a choice after a few years is a better option.

I think that's a big point to be made. I mean, I'm sure you could manage to rack up 200k of debt on top of what you had if you tried, but, other than doing something like going to a UC school or major NY at sticker when you currently live in a place with a very low COL, you probably aren't going to have 200k more of debt than you would.

[romothesavior]

Don't go to law school.

[STLMizzou]

retake

[20130312]

retake

and then ED UVA

[freaknroll]

retake

and then ED UVA

2 years WE, ED NW. Might as well make it the trifecta

[dingbat]

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

I got news for you. As far as law schools are concerned, UC Irvine is most definately not top-50.
At this point, the law school isn't ABA accredited, meaning that its graduates can't be admitted to the bar of 49 states.
While UC Irvine is probably the most promising new law school in a long time, outside of California it might as well not exist. Within california, it's stuck behind Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, UC Davis and San Diego, under even the best of assumptions.
Unless you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer in Orange County, UCI is a bad idea.

[Tiago Splitter]

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

I got news for you. As far as law schools are concerned, UC Irvine is most definately not top-50.
At this point, the law school isn't ABA accredited, meaning that its graduates can't be admitted to the bar of 49 states.
While UC Irvine is probably the most promising new law school in a long time, outside of California it might as well not exist. Within california, it's stuck behind Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, UC Davis and San Diego, under even the best of assumptions.
Unless you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer in Orange County, UCI is a bad idea.

Really dude?

[johansantana21]

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

I got news for you. As far as law schools are concerned, UC Irvine is most definately not top-50.
At this point, the law school isn't ABA accredited, meaning that its graduates can't be admitted to the bar of 49 states.
While UC Irvine is probably the most promising new law school in a long time, outside of California it might as well not exist. Within california, it's stuck behind Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, UC Davis and San Diego, under even the best of assumptions.
Unless you are 100% sure you want to be a lawyer in Orange County, UCI is a bad idea.

Really dude?

+1

All TTT after a certain point anyways.

[BruceWayne]

As to your other point, that's not what your said in the original post I replied to. But I'm not gonna argue semantics with you.

Ding Ding,looks like we've got someone who has a grasp on reality. And Ibanking is so out of reach for most people it's not even funny. If you didn't choose to go to an elite school when you were 17 (and then do well at said elite school at that) you're out of luck.

False.

Not to mention the QOL is even worse than law firm work and you really ARE restricted to working in NYC, as opposed to just more likely to work there if you are going for biglaw.

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life; however, my friend in Dallas says he usually works about 80 hour weeks.

I have no desire to do IB, but a few jobs are definitely out there.

That's a good idea, because you're wrong. My original post that you responded to quite clearly said that the QOL was terrible.

[Simplicity]

As to your other point, that's not what your said in the original post I replied to. But I'm not gonna argue semantics with you.

Ding Ding,looks like we've got someone who has a grasp on reality. And Ibanking is so out of reach for most people it's not even funny. If you didn't choose to go to an elite school when you were 17 (and then do well at said elite school at that) you're out of luck.

False.

Not to mention the QOL is even worse than law firm work and you really ARE restricted to working in NYC, as opposed to just more likely to work there if you are going for biglaw.

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life; however, my friend in Dallas says he usually works about 80 hour weeks.

I have no desire to do IB, but a few jobs are definitely out there.

That's a good idea, because you're wrong. My original post that you responded to quite clearly said that the QOL was terrible.

Really? To me, it looks like you said: "the QOL is even worse than law firm work" (btw, thanks for bolding that....I was having trouble seeing it before). Obviously the QOL is terrible at both places; I'm not disagreeing with you there. However, is the QOL at an IB in Dallas worse than the QOL at a big law firm in NYC? Doubtful. Hence, why I said it depends where you work. If you would have just said: "the QOL at IBs is terrible" - I would have totally agreed with you. But that's not what you said.

I'm going to assume reading comp. was your weakest section on the LSAT. Am I right?

[AriGoldButNicer]

I respect both sides of the argument, and it is interesting. I just think it is important to mention that in practice, I don't think that people should follow a mantra that is so extreme. Law school is a pretty complex and life altering decision that requires a lot of thought, and the top fourteen or don't go mantra is really kind of thoughtless. There are plenty of really great lawyers who could not get into top fourteen law schools, and many have also made a great deal of money. These talented lawyers probably did not just succeed based on luck on 1L tests. Just by default, we know that many top fourteen graduates (even if they are a smaller percentage) will be like them one day. We also know that a large percentage, probably most won't be like them. However, people should research everything, research themselves and make an informed decision.

[AriGoldButNicer]

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life;

[/quote]

Who talks about how much they hate their life? What a downer of a person. There's no way his life is THAT BAD. He worked hard, and that's good for him. A 120 hours is a ton, but that at even $25/hour is a lot of money.

[dingbat]

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life;

Who talks about how much they hate their life? What a downer of a person. There's no way his life is THAT BAD. He worked hard, and that's good for him. A 120 hours is a ton, but that at even $25/hour is a lot of money.[/quote]

Actually, you're not far off:. 120 hrs/wk * $25 * 50 wks = $150,000
(I factored in 2 weeks off for simple math. In reality, it'll be more like 48 weeks)

But let's be realistic - 120 hours per week is 17 hours per day, 6 days a week. That's not feasible.
From what I've learned from people who have done it, or are in the process, if you want to make partner in a major law firm you need to rack up at least 2000 billable hours per year, which equates to about an 80 hour workweek (a billable hour is not the same as an hour of work). I live in NY and know plenty of people in ibanking, consulting and law who work approximately that many hours (80-90 typically).
So, biglaw consensus starting salary is $165,000 / 50 wks / 80 hrs = $41.25 per hour
I'd just like to point out that my plumber makes more than that.

the thing about big law (for better or worse) is, yes you get paid a lot, but you need to work a lot of hours. some people do well under those circumstances, others would prefer to work at a smaller firm, making less money, but working less hours (and coming out around the same hourly wage)

[20130312]

retake

and then ED UVA

2 years WE, ED NW. Might as well make it the trifecta

This statement doesn't come up anymore, because ED to NW means a full ride now. So that's a little tougher.