Suffolk or William Mitchell?? Forum

[FiveSermon]

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

What does this even mean?
There is a meaningful distinction in the sense that the group of strong-ish T30s have better prospects than schools not in their peer group.

HYS

Other T14

Intermediaries
(Vandy, UCLA, USC, UT, GULC)

The T30 Major Market Tier Group
(GW, Fordham, BU, BC, WUSTL, Emory)

Strong Publics near a semi-major market
(UIUC, UMN, IU-B)

Flagships

Other T100 in a non-super saturated Market
(ie Temple)

T100 in a super-saturated/competitive market
(Loyola-LA, Kent, Cardozo)

Other

Each grouping has very similar employment properties within that grouping. So to say everything after T17 is a wash is inaccurate and overly simplistic.

T30 or T20 seems to imply something that T30 or T20s have that other schools don't.

After the T13-T17 it's mostly regional powerhouses. BU/BC aren't in the T20. Does that mean it is inferior to WUSTL which is in the T20? No. Same with schools such as GWU vs Fordham. It's dumb. You can switch GWU and BC/BU and no one would argue that it is a slight against GWU. It's interchangeable.

As for Texas being a T14 LOL.

[Naked Dude]

T20 and T30 are not meaningful distinctions. Once you drop past maybe the T17 it's all a crapshoot.

What does this even mean?
There is a meaningful distinction in the sense that the group of strong-ish T30s have better prospects than schools not in their peer group.

HYS

Other T14

Intermediaries
(Vandy, UCLA, USC, UT, GULC)

The T30 Major Market Tier Group
(GW, Fordham, BU, BC, WUSTL, Emory)

Strong Publics near a semi-major market
(UIUC, UMN, IU-B)

Flagships

Other T100 in a non-super saturated Market
(ie Temple)

T100 in a super-saturated/competitive market
(Loyola-LA, Kent, Cardozo)

Other

Each grouping has very similar employment properties within that grouping. So to say everything after T17 is a wash is inaccurate and overly simplistic.

T30 or T20 seems to imply something that T30 or T20s have that other schools don't.

After the T13-T17 it's mostly regional powerhouses. BU/BC aren't in the T20. Does that mean it is inferior to WUSTL which is in the T20? No. Same with schools such as GWU vs Fordham. It's dumb. You can switch GWU and BC/BU and no one would argue that it is a slight against GWU. It's interchangeable.

As for Texas being a T14 LOL.

I agree with T20 being a dubious distinction. I think a category that places GW and WUSTL (not that they're bad schools) above BU/BC is not really reliable. Descriptively, yes GW, Minnesota and WUSTL are Top 20s, but that's a silly argument. If the "platonic ideal" if you will of a T20 is an extra-regional school with a good to great grip on its home market, then BU and BC belong in that category. Otherwise, T20/25/30...it's just a number. Something that sounds good to the helicopter parents of 0Ls

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

This thread has gone horribly off topic, but I completely agree that the T20-T25 is a dubious distinction. I agree that any ranking that has a WUSTL/MINN/IOWA, etc. ranked higher than a Fordham/GW/BC/BU is questionable given the law firm hirings and clerkship placements.

Thankfully, NLJ has their own ranking which doesn't focus on trivial things like library size, etc.

[Naked Dude]

This thread has gone horribly off topic, but I completely agree that the T20-T25 is a dubious distinction. I agree that any ranking that has a WUSTL/MINN/IOWA, etc. ranked higher than a Fordham/GW/BC/BU is questionable given the law firm hirings and clerkship placements.

Thankfully, NLJ has their own ranking which doesn't focus on trivial things like library size, etc.

I'm probably going to BU and personally couldn't care less about Minnesota/GW/WUSTL being ranked a couple places higher. The placement speaks for itself and that's all I care about. Arguing about this online is one thing, but when my parents say "WHY DO YOU WANT TO GO TO BU GW IS RANKED HIGHER" I don't even know where to start. Not that I answer to my parents so much anymore, just frustrating.

[romothesavior]

This thread has gone horribly off topic, but I completely agree that the T20-T25 is a dubious distinction. I agree that any ranking that has a WUSTL/MINN/IOWA, etc. ranked higher than a Fordham/GW/BC/BU is questionable given the law firm hirings and clerkship placements.

Thankfully, NLJ has their own ranking which doesn't focus on trivial things like library size, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm still waiting for you to tell me about those T2s placing 1/3 of their classes into legit clerkships in NLJ firms.

[alumniguy]

I'm probably going to BU and personally couldn't care less about Minnesota/GW/WUSTL being ranked a couple places higher. The placement speaks for itself and that's all I care about. Arguing about this online is one thing, but when my parents say "WHY DO YOU WANT TO GO TO BU GW IS RANKED HIGHER" I don't even know where to start. Not that I answer to my parents so much anymore, just frustrating.

All you need to say is the USNews does not translate into a ranking of job prospects. USNews never intended to be used to provide prospective students with job prospects - possibly in a round about way, but that was never its focus. USNews is primarily concerned about ranking the law schools themselves, not about which law schools provide the best job opportunities.

The 20s/30s debate is rather tired. Anyone who knows anything more than an 0L would agree that particular rankings from 15-35 mean nothing.

It is funny watching 0Ls split hairs when justifying their school choice. "I went to school X over school Y because X places 37.82% of their class in biglaw and Y only places 36.54%. Look at all of the suckers at Y, they are dumb and I am going to have such an advantage when it comes to OCI." It's just hilarious.

[observationalist]

I'm probably going to BU and personally couldn't care less about Minnesota/GW/WUSTL being ranked a couple places higher. The placement speaks for itself and that's all I care about. Arguing about this online is one thing, but when my parents say "WHY DO YOU WANT TO GO TO BU GW IS RANKED HIGHER" I don't even know where to start. Not that I answer to my parents so much anymore, just frustrating.

All you need to say is the USNews does not translate into a ranking of job prospects. USNews never intended to be used to provide prospective students with job prospects - possibly in a round about way, but that was never its focus. USNews is primarily concerned about ranking the law schools themselves, not about which law schools provide the best job opportunities.

The 20s/30s debate is rather tired. Anyone who knows anything more than an 0L would agree that particular rankings from 15-35 mean nothing.

It is funny watching 0Ls split hairs when justifying their school choice. "I went to school X over school Y because X places 37.82% of their class in biglaw and Y only places 36.54%. Look at all of the suckers at Y, they are dumb and I am going to have such an advantage when it comes to OCI." It's just hilarious.

U.S. News actually does seem interested in figuring out how to rank schools based on output variables like job opportunities. The problem is that right now their methodology really only looks at the employed at graduation and 9 months out stats, for which any job counts as a job. They've already issued a letter to the deans of every law school asking them to be more forthcoming with data, and they've also gone on the record to state that if more data were available they would use it. Also, at least originally U.S. News acted as an information-forcing device, using an enforcement mechanism (reputation) that worked at least as well as ABA oversight in ensuring compliance. The real problem is that nobody els (except the ABA Section of Legal Ed) really thinks things like library volumes are an important metric. If the ABA Standards Review Committee were to change the requirements, we might see U.S. News tweaking its methodology. For now they're waiting to see what the Standards Review Committee proposes, and if it's not strong enough then we could see U.S. News cooking up something new next year. We'll see.

But you're right in that the rankings are definitely not something to be basing your decision on. I guarantee nobody in admissions at Suffolk actually thinks they're competing with WM right now for an applicant's tuition money, given the distance between the schools and the fact that neither school places graduates into the same market. That's not to say schools aren't in serious competition with each other, but just that outside of the top schools they really only consider peer programs to be those that also feed into the same market as them. Thus, someone with acceptances at Suffolk and BU is in a better position to negotiate $$ than someone with acceptances to Suffolk and W&L.

[alumniguy]

U.S. News actually does seem interested in figuring out how to rank schools based on output variables like job opportunities. The problem is that right now their methodology really only looks at the employed at graduation and 9 months out stats, for which any job counts as a job. They've already issued a letter to the deans of every law school asking them to be more forthcoming with data, and they've also gone on the record to state that if more data were available they would use it. Also, at least originally U.S. News acted as an information-forcing device, using an enforcement mechanism (reputation) that worked at least as well as ABA oversight in ensuring compliance. The real problem is that nobody els (except the ABA Section of Legal Ed) really thinks things like library volumes are an important metric. If the ABA Standards Review Committee were to change the requirements, we might see U.S. News tweaking its methodology. For now they're waiting to see what the Standards Review Committee proposes, and if it's not strong enough then we could see U.S. News cooking up something new next year. We'll see.

But you're right in that the rankings are definitely not something to be basing your decision on. I guarantee nobody in admissions at Suffolk actually thinks they're competing with WM right now for an applicant's tuition money, given the distance between the schools and the fact that neither school places graduates into the same market. That's not to say schools aren't in serious competition with each other, but just that outside of the top schools they really only consider peer programs to be those that also feed into the same market as them. Thus, someone with acceptances at Suffolk and BU is in a better position to negotiate $$ than someone with acceptances to Suffolk and W&L.

I was certainly not as clear as I wanted be after re-reading my post. USNews uses a number of variables to determine its rankings - job statistics being one of many factors. My point was simply that USNews rankings don't translate directly into a ranking of job prospects. Given the significant decrease in legal hiring over the past few years, job prospects have taken on an increasingly important factor to many prospective law school students. So while USNews may rank school X much higher than school Y, school Y may actually offer better job prospects to its graduates than school X.

[Naked Dude]

I'd be interested in job stats five years out, though I imagine that it's quite impractical.

[firemed]

I'd be interested in job stats five years out, though I imagine that it's quite impractical.

I often wonder why BLS doesn't use data from the IRS to track some of this. You could even have people sign a waiver for BLS to get this information when they sign up for loans (which virtually all law students use to some degree). They could do this for a lot of careers, actually, giving future career choosers a lot of valuable data, not just from law... though that would be my primary interest.

[aliarrow]

I'd be interested in job stats five years out, though I imagine that it's quite impractical.

I often wonder why BLS doesn't use data from the IRS to track some of this. You could even have people sign a waiver for BLS to get this information when they sign up for loans (which virtually all law students use to some degree). They could do this for a lot of careers, actually, giving future career choosers a lot of valuable data, not just from law... though that would be my primary interest.

I looked up IRS stats and found this
--LinkRemoved--

Not that useful or in any way related to what you said, but still interesting to see the income distribution breakdown per year.

[DongLei]

I've read all of the posts in this thread and I'm happy people are willing to give the hard facts; my sister (a 3L at a certain T20) believes I should go to law school only if I really want to go to law school no matter what the cost.

Question relevant to this discussion: If you are set on living and practicing in MSP, which would you rather take? 75% scholly (2.9 stip) at William Mitchell or sticker at UMN?

Not attending law school next year is still a strong option for me, my cycle did not go as well as I'd hoped. Got kicked out of my first university and had to overcome some major GPA issues. I realize this might mean law school isn't for me, and I'm ok with that. Would you rather be 60k in debt with William Mitchell or 120K in debt at UMN? I still like the bust option because to be honest just thinking about 120k is daunting, but it doesn't hurt to ask y'alls opinion.

[paratactical]

Question relevant to this discussion: If you are set on living and practicing in MSP, which would you rather take? 75% scholly (2.9 stip) at William Mitchell or sticker at UMN?

Not attending law school next year is still a strong option for me, my cycle did not go as well as I'd hoped. Got kicked out of my first university and had to overcome some major GPA issues. I realize this might mean law school isn't for me, and I'm ok with that. Would you rather be 60k in debt with William Mitchell or 120K in debt at UMN? I still like the bust option because to be honest just thinking about 120k is daunting, but it doesn't hurt to ask y'alls opinion.

If those were my only options, I would probably continue on in my current career. Are you fresh out of UG or do you have some WE? If you're fresh from UG, I might say take 2-3 years to work, to study for the LSAT and to pay down UG debt and distance yourself from your GPA before you reapply if that's still what you want to do.

[aliarrow]

I've read all of the posts in this thread and I'm happy people are willing to give the hard facts; my sister (a 3L at a certain T20) believes I should go to law school only if I really want to go to law school no matter what the cost.

Question relevant to this discussion: If you are set on living and practicing in MSP, which would you rather take? 75% scholly (2.9 stip) at William Mitchell or sticker at UMN?

Not attending law school next year is still a strong option for me, my cycle did not go as well as I'd hoped. Got kicked out of my first university and had to overcome some major GPA issues. I realize this might mean law school isn't for me, and I'm ok with that. Would you rather be 60k in debt with William Mitchell or 120K in debt at UMN? I still like the bust option because to be honest just thinking about 120k is daunting, but it doesn't hurt to ask y'alls opinion.

How are you paying cost of living? Are you living with parents? If so then 120k for UMN isnt that bad, and works out to be the same as someone receiving a 50% scholarship who needs COL loans. Its a lot of debt, but if you plan on staying in the twin cities it seems very manageable between the moderate COL and strong job prospects from the U.

[DongLei]

Fresh out of UG, would definitely be nice to pay down some UG loans. My parents moved to Texas for jobs so I'd be taking out loans for COL expenses. Taking out so much money to me is akin to buying a house before I know whether I have the income to afford it, just doesn't sit too well with me.

[aliarrow]

Fresh out of UG, would definitely be nice to pay down some UG loans. My parents moved to Texas for jobs so I'd be taking out loans for COL expenses. Taking out so much money to me is akin to buying a house before I know whether I have the income to afford it, just doesn't sit too well with me.

Then yeah, get some work experience, take a few years off, save and pay down debt, and retake. 167 seems to be the magic number for a 50% scholarship at UMN

[firemed]

Fresh out of UG, would definitely be nice to pay down some UG loans. My parents moved to Texas for jobs so I'd be taking out loans for COL expenses. Taking out so much money to me is akin to buying a house before I know whether I have the income to afford it, just doesn't sit too well with me.

Then yeah, get some work experience, take a few years off, save and pay down debt, and retake. 167 seems to be the magic number for a 50% scholarship at UMN

Also, since parents are in TX, consider SMU or U of Houston as options. With a high enough LSAT score schollys may be options there. It is warmer there, and has good (if mostly local) markets available. And that would cut your COL if parents are in Dallas/Ft. Worth or Houston.

[jeric]

I'm entering my third year in Suffolk's evening program. While it's true that Harvard, BC, and BU are all better schools, Suffolk is definitely not a bad option. I got into Northeastern but decided to go to Suffolk evening. There were eight PhDs in my evening section along with graduates from Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, and many from Bowdoin, Bates, Middlebury, BC, etc. I work at a top firm as a paralegal and will leave law school with under $15,000 in loans. Don't let some snobs discourage you. You didn't get into Harvard? Me either. There are plenty of very successful attorneys in Boston who graduated from Suffolk. Good luck!

[alumniguy]

Fresh out of UG, would definitely be nice to pay down some UG loans. My parents moved to Texas for jobs so I'd be taking out loans for COL expenses. Taking out so much money to me is akin to buying a house before I know whether I have the income to afford it, just doesn't sit too well with me.

Then yeah, get some work experience, take a few years off, save and pay down debt, and retake. 167 seems to be the magic number for a 50% scholarship at UMN

Also, since parents are in TX, consider SMU or U of Houston as options. With a high enough LSAT score schollys may be options there. It is warmer there, and has good (if mostly local) markets available. And that would cut your COL if parents are in Dallas/Ft. Worth or Houston.

DongLei said s/he wanted to practice in MSP. I would never go to law school in TX if I wanted to practice in MSP. Despite the fact the DongLei has probably already decided, I would choose WM in this scenario. I think the wisdom is that UMN is a far better school, academically speaking; however, it seems that they have real problems getting their graduates jobs. Given the extra 60k in debt, I'm not sure it is worth it. I would attend WM for a year and hope to hit the ball out of the park. Do well enough and it is possible to transfer to UMN. If not, then reevaluate and consider dropping out since median to bottom of the class is probably not going to yield the best opportunities given the 60k of debt and three year opportunity costs.

[NYC Law]

Fresh out of UG, would definitely be nice to pay down some UG loans. My parents moved to Texas for jobs so I'd be taking out loans for COL expenses. Taking out so much money to me is akin to buying a house before I know whether I have the income to afford it, just doesn't sit too well with me.

Then yeah, get some work experience, take a few years off, save and pay down debt, and retake. 167 seems to be the magic number for a 50% scholarship at UMN

Also, since parents are in TX, consider SMU or U of Houston as options. With a high enough LSAT score schollys may be options there. It is warmer there, and has good (if mostly local) markets available. And that would cut your COL if parents are in Dallas/Ft. Worth or Houston.

DongLei said s/he wanted to practice in MSP. I would never go to law school in TX if I wanted to practice in MSP. Despite the fact the DongLei has probably already decided, I would choose WM in this scenario. I think the wisdom is that UMN is a far better school, academically speaking; however, it seems that they have real problems getting their graduates jobs. Given the extra 60k in debt, I'm not sure it is worth it. I would attend WM for a year and hope to hit the ball out of the park. Do well enough and it is possible to transfer to UMN. If not, then reevaluate and consider dropping out since median to bottom of the class is probably not going to yield the best opportunities given the 60k of debt and three year opportunity costs.

This is tangental, but the other day I realized it isn't appropriate to account for Opportunity Cost and full COA. The Cost of Living loans are what you'd be spending most of the OC on anyway, so you've already got debt to account for that, so when you count both you're doubling the actual debt.
To sum:
Total Cost of school = Tuition for 3 years + (Opportunity Cost for 3 years - Cost of Attendance)

[firemed]

DongLei said s/he wanted to practice in MSP. I would never go to law school in TX if I wanted to practice in MSP. Despite the fact the DongLei has probably already decided, I would choose WM in this scenario. I think the wisdom is that UMN is a far better school, academically speaking; however, it seems that they have real problems getting their graduates jobs. Given the extra 60k in debt, I'm not sure it is worth it. I would attend WM for a year and hope to hit the ball out of the park. Do well enough and it is possible to transfer to UMN. If not, then reevaluate and consider dropping out since median to bottom of the class is probably not going to yield the best opportunities given the 60k of debt and three year opportunity costs.

Two issues with what you wrote:

1) I was suggesting that DongLei consider TX over MN... and if so, do the schools I suggested. If DL didn't want that, whatever. But it would be worth considering, IMO, provided you were willing to live in TX for the rest of your career.

2) a 10-25% chance of transferring is a suckers bet, no matter how hard you work it really is just a roll of the dice whether you will have the grades to transfer. If DL went to UH or SMU his/her chances of getting a job at median for the class really aren't too bad considering that those schools do very well in their respective markets, unlike WM which simply doesn't.

Now, you are right that DL stated he/she was set on practicing there... but that strikes me as not the best choice... why not open yourself up to better options... better options without snow, no less.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

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