Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[skers]

The let's poke fun at lower-tier schools' employment figures shtick isn't funny.

[isuperserial]

Ohio State; Moritz College of Law

16.9% (38/225)+ 4.4% (10/225) = 21.3%

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/careers/wp-con ... 13ABA1.pdf

That's actually better than I thought they would be.

That's actually pretty solid. Good for OSU!

[downinDtown]

The let's poke fun at lower-tier schools' employment figures shtick isn't funny.

You're right. It's not funny. It's actually embarassing that these schools are still open and that students pay equivalent tuition to top schools for markedly different (and poorer) employment outcomes.

I'd venture to say 50% of TLS is hoping for a market correction (or ABA action) that eliminates these TTT(T) schools entirely. 30% of TLS may have at one point considered these schools, but then saw the light for what those schools really are. 20% of TLS ignores advice and statistics and still chooses to go to those schools (because location, scholarship money, don't want to retake the LSAT, yada yada) or get upset when people don't agree with their poor decision to attend said lower-tiered "educational institution."

TLS is, in many ways, doing a public service. It may not be in the most "PC" way, but me telling someone not to make a stupid decision (or to try to improve their situation--read: "Retake") because six figures of non-dischargeable debt is real and life-altering and the job market/numbers are not what they used to be isn't just a shtick. So if you want to avoid 80% of TLS, feel free; that way you won't get offended.

Quit being a shtick in the mud, okay?

[desiballa21]

The let's poke fun at lower-tier schools' employment figures shtick isn't funny.

[LurkerShirker]

W&L 16.1% + 3.5% = 19.6%

[c0llegeStUd3nt]

The let's poke fun at lower-tier schools' employment figures shtick isn't funny.

this

[lawschool22]

[twenty]

It's not "funny" so much as it's sickeningly enjoyable. These are the same people who've been escalating their prices/lying to students about employment data/giving deliberately dishonest advice to students to keep them from transferring/etcetc. for the past several years, and now the chickens have finally come home to roost. I legitimately feel bad for the students attending (even though many of these students came to TLS, openly refused to retake, and wanted us to justify their bad choices), and I even legitimately feel bad for the professors there that thought teaching at Chapman was a secure pre-retirement job. The people I don't feel bad for are the moochers that keep justifying 4% tuition increases each year in a markedly downward legal employment field.

I personally won't engage in the LOLCOOLEY business, but only because it's run itself into the ground on TLS, not because it isn't completely true.

[lawschool22]

I also find the GULC number to be scary. That, coupled with low merit aid, and the number of people attending there simply due to its name and location, make it a dangerous combination, imho.

[LRGhost]

There's a difference between denigrating these schools as the pure shitholes that they are and deriving sick pleasure from it because a coinflip at Big Law + Big Debt is somehow justifiable.

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

[LRGhost]

I also find the GULC number to be scary. That, coupled with low merit aid, and the number of people attending there simply due to its name and location, make it a dangerous combination, imho.

GULC does poorly because of its class size. If they cut significantly, they'd probably begin to perform like the rest of the T14. I don't really know if most people there gun for DC Big Law or NYC but I'd guess if you chose GULC, you want to stay in DC?

[lhanvt13]

It's not "funny" so much as it's sickeningly enjoyable. These are the same people who've been escalating their prices/lying to students about employment data/giving deliberately dishonest advice to students to keep them from transferring/etcetc. for the past several years, and now the chickens have finally come home to roost. I legitimately feel bad for the students attending (even though many of these students came to TLS, openly refused to retake, and wanted us to justify their bad choices), and I even legitimately feel bad for the professors there that thought teaching at Chapman was a secure pre-retirement job. The people I don't feel bad for are the moochers that keep justifying 4% tuition increases each year in a markedly downward legal employment field.

I personally won't engage in the LOLCOOLEY business, but only because it's run itself into the ground on TLS, not because it isn't completely true.

+1
I think TLS is a good counterbalance to a lot of: "escalating their prices/lying to students about employment data/giving deliberately dishonest advice to students to keep them from transferring." Whether it's through meaningful data or even making fun of those "schools," we're helping to deter a lot of people from making horrible choices. The more we do this, the better it will be for the legal field because of the lower amount of people going to these places which undeservingly call themselves ABA accredited law schools. Hopefully, as more people run into this website or even look at some of the data, less people go to those schools and those crap holes will start shutting down and stop ruining people's lives. So, I think poking fun is completely fine.

[lawschool22]

I also find the GULC number to be scary. That, coupled with low merit aid, and the number of people attending there simply due to its name and location, make it a dangerous combination, imho.

GULC does poorly because of its class size. If they cut significantly, they'd probably begin to perform like the rest of the T14. I don't really know if most people there gun for DC Big Law or NYC but I'd guess if you chose GULC, you want to stay in DC?

I know class size is a factor, but that doesn't change the simple fact that if you go there you are competing with a lot of people, and due to the curve, the percentages are what matter. So ~45% combined biglaw + fed clerk is not that great, considering what they give most people in merit aid.

[xJD2017x]

I also find the GULC number to be scary. That, coupled with low merit aid, and the number of people attending there simply due to its name and location, make it a dangerous combination, imho.

GULC does poorly because of its class size. If they cut significantly, they'd probably begin to perform like the rest of the T14. I don't really know if most people there gun for DC Big Law or NYC but I'd guess if you chose GULC, you want to stay in DC?

Yes but it's hard to cut, you have to cut tenured faculty. That would hurt their rep scores and so on and they would tank.

[manu6926]

...

[JCougar]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

This is the correct response.

It's to the point where even Biglaw is a risky bet to pay off sticker debt at the T14. And that's if you get Biglaw. At anywhere but Georgetown, chances are slightly in favor of getting biglaw, but it's far from guaranteed. Then you're really screwed.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw looks really shiny and prestigious from an 0L perspective, but once you graduate and start working there, many people absolutely hate their life, and start wondering why they opted to take on all that extra debt to obtain Biglaw just so they could make enough money to pay off their Biglaw debt. Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

The fact that tuition is STILL going up is just another sign that there's too many people out there with stars in their eyes that really don't get it. Columbia, Cornell, Northwestern, Berkeley, and NYU cost over a quarter-million dollars at sticker with COL and interest factored in. That's ridiculous.

[LRGhost]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

"No bro, I won't be an average! I'm special! The statistics don't apply to me!"

(T14 student moments after defecating on people at GW)

[exitoptions]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

This is the correct response.

It's to the point where even Biglaw is a risky bet to pay off sticker debt at the T14. And that's if you get Biglaw. At anywhere but Georgetown, chances are slightly in favor of getting biglaw, but it's far from guaranteed. Then you're really screwed.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw looks really shiny and prestigious from an 0L perspective, but once you graduate and start working there, many people absolutely hate their life, and start wondering why they opted to take on all that extra debt to obtain Biglaw just so they could make enough money to pay off their Biglaw debt. Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

The fact that tuition is STILL going up is just another sign that there's too many people out there with stars in their eyes that really don't get it. Columbia, Cornell, Berkeley, and NYU cost over a quarter-million dollars at sticker with COL and interest factored in. That's ridiculous.

This. Almost everyone I know in biglaw is trying to get out of biglaw. The rest are partners or think they will be in a couple years.

[Dr. Filth]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

"No bro, I won't be an average! I'm special! The statistics don't apply to me!"

(T14 student moments after defecating on people at GW)

(someone that doesn't have the fortitude to work more than forty hours a week)

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

These numbers are better than 2012? They look that way to me.

[aboutmydaylight]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

This is the correct response.

It's to the point where even Biglaw is a risky bet to pay off sticker debt at the T14. And that's if you get Biglaw. At anywhere but Georgetown, chances are slightly in favor of getting biglaw, but it's far from guaranteed. Then you're really screwed.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw looks really shiny and prestigious from an 0L perspective, but once you graduate and start working there, many people absolutely hate their life, and start wondering why they opted to take on all that extra debt to obtain Biglaw just so they could make enough money to pay off their Biglaw debt. Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

The fact that tuition is STILL going up is just another sign that there's too many people out there with stars in their eyes that really don't get it. Columbia, Cornell, Berkeley, and NYU cost over a quarter-million dollars at sticker with COL and interest factored in. That's ridiculous.

This. Almost everyone I know in biglaw is trying to get out of biglaw. The rest are partners or think they will be in a couple years.

Doesn't big law provide better exit opportunities than most anything else though? Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that most people don't see it as the end goal.

[lawschool22]

The whole model is fucked from the T14 down to unranked schools. It's just a bit better towards the top.

This is the correct response.

It's to the point where even Biglaw is a risky bet to pay off sticker debt at the T14. And that's if you get Biglaw. At anywhere but Georgetown, chances are slightly in favor of getting biglaw, but it's far from guaranteed. Then you're really screwed.

Also, keep in mind that Biglaw looks really shiny and prestigious from an 0L perspective, but once you graduate and start working there, many people absolutely hate their life, and start wondering why they opted to take on all that extra debt to obtain Biglaw just so they could make enough money to pay off their Biglaw debt. Not to mention Biglaw's churn & burn business strategy, which makes those jobs a short-term solution.

The fact that tuition is STILL going up is just another sign that there's too many people out there with stars in their eyes that really don't get it. Columbia, Cornell, Berkeley, and NYU cost over a quarter-million dollars at sticker with COL and interest factored in. That's ridiculous.

This. Almost everyone I know in biglaw is trying to get out of biglaw. The rest are partners or think they will be in a couple years.

The grass is always greener. I agree with you guys that 0L's who see biglaw as the promised land are mistaken. But for some of us biglaw is typically a necessary means to an end. As long as us 0L's are clear about goals, know how to get there, and can be realistic about what that entails, it shouldn't be too big of a shock that biglaw hours suck and you get burned out after a few years.

I know biglaw is not going to be fun, but I also know that for where I want to eventually be, it is a necessary step along that path. I'm sure that's how it is for the majority of people who are in biglaw. They know they don't like it, but they they also know they have to do it. That doesn't make it horrible that there are many people who are trying to leave. The majority of people enter biglaw with the intent to leave at some point.

[lhanvt13]

Not to drag things off topic, but using that photo as representative of Penn's law school building is as deceptive as using raw biglaw percentage as representative of Penn's placement power.

On topic, so much for any supposed recovery of the legal market. These are basically last years numbers redux.

All the T14s + WUSTL/Fordham are up. It's not a huge increase but it's something.

where is cornell ?

Ithaca

LOL

[JCougar]

Doesn't big law provide better exit opportunities than most anything else though? Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that most people don't see it as the end goal.

I really think it's hit or miss. Just like there's a glut of people trying to get Biglaw jobs, there's also a glut of people exiting Biglaw. If you want to lateral to midlaw, it's more about your ability to build business. If you don't have any business, who's going to want to hire you? I guess you could try and to to the plaintiff side, but those firms prefer people with PI experience. Biglaw's definitely preferred if you want to go in-house, though. But those jobs are competitive even for people with Biglaw on their resume.

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

[Otunga]

As far as getting good training goes, there's many jobs that give you better training a lot sooner.

Examples?