Warning Forum

[timbs4339]

I get it. I'm with you. But you really don't even remotely think that students are responsible for the decision of where they choose to go to school? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, if someone drops $100k on some completely crap stock without even looking at the market predictions/business model/reviews, etc. and loses everything is there not at least a little bit of 'Hey, maybe you should have checked that out a little first?'. Really?

To each their own, I don't really care if people choose to make these decisions and I think the schools are largely to blame. I just can't believe students wouldn't think to make sure they were investing wisely.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that students should be responsible. I just think you're vastly underestimating how often otherwise "smart" people make this poor decision. Most people don't know or pay attention to the law school scam coverage. Why wouldn't you be able to trust advertised employment stats by a supposed institution of higher learning?

Again, this is the 'naive' argument. If this was something less important I would understand, but this can literally determine the rest of your life and I think it deserves a little more consideration. I mean, who in the world sees and ad for Ave Maria or whatever and goes 'Hey, without any further research I am going to throw thousands of dollars at these people'? It would be like hearing a one-liner from a guy at the bar and saying 'I don't know anything else about you... want to get married?'.

To some people, it is more like meeting a super-rich, beautiful, famous person and getting married the same day- the dream scenario for many people. I try my hardest to dissuade prospective students from making poor decisions and have gotten frustrated at people who refuse to see that dropping 200K on a TTT education just so they can avoid making payments on their 50K of UG debt for three more years is a bad idea. But I recognize that for some people the idea that law school is a bad investment just does not occur to them. You need to be able to entertain a hypothesis before you can investigate it.

And anyway, from the perspective of good social policy it makes sense to focus on other ways to solve the problem. I disagree with removing government from the equation because higher education is a social issue and I'm not convinced the market would produce a good outcome for society.

[dresden doll]

Also, the sheer fact that it's 'naive' to trust a law school doesn't authorize that law school to lie and mislead prospective applicants.

[iowalum]

For me trade school = college (of some sort). It doesn't matter what kind of education you get, but everyone should get some. And I think many people around the world would feel lucky to have college pushed on them.

Trade school =/= college. I work with electrical linemen. They're highly-trained, not at all dumb, and make damn good money, but they are not college-educated. Line school is an example of a trade school that we should ENCOURAGE kids to go to. These guys are far better off than an aimless, uninspired liberal arts student who managed all Cs. And yet a lot of people would look down on their kids wanting to go to line school instead of getting a useless degree at Podunk State U.

My neighbor installs phone lines for verizon. He makes close to 6 figures

My brother who is a surgeon has said in all honesty that in his next life he'd rather be a plumber (except for the fact that he likes cutting people)[/quote]

Jesus, people settle down. I was responding to the comment that stupid people didn't deserve education - All I meant is that people should learn SOMETHING. Trade school, college, on-the-job training, whatever - I just think of people that don't have the opportunity to learn any kind of trade/career (developing countries, etc.) and would give anything to be in the position to be pushed to go to college.

[Tiago Splitter]

Also, the sheer fact that it's 'naive' to trust a law school doesn't authorize that law school to lie and mislead prospective applicants.

Did someone say that it does?

[d.schoenfeld16]

So Rutgers sent out an email or something?

[flem]

Jesus, people settle down. I was responding to the comment that stupid people didn't deserve education - All I meant is that people should learn SOMETHING. Trade school, college, on-the-job training, whatever - I just think of people that don't have the opportunity to learn any kind of trade/career (developing countries, etc.) and would give anything to be in the position to be pushed to go to college.

Nobody said stupid people don't deserve an education. I believe rink meant that if you're "stupid" (to me this just means not book smart) you don't deserve to go to college. Not that you don't deserve any sort of additional education.

For instance, if you have a 2.5 GPA and a 148 LSAT after three takes, you don't deserve to go to law school.

[dresden doll]

Also, the sheer fact that it's 'naive' to trust a law school doesn't authorize that law school to lie and mislead prospective applicants.

Did someone say that it does?

Plenty of people implied it by going on and on about the personal responsibility to investigate 'beyond' statistics. People shouldn't need to 'investigate' to uncover scams because law schools shouldn't be trying to scam in the first place.

[flem]

Plenty of people implied it by going on and on about the personal responsibility to investigate 'beyond' statistics. People shouldn't need to 'investigate' to uncover scams because law schools shouldn't be trying to scam in the first place.

It's certainly a combo of both.

[dresden doll]

Plenty of people implied it by going on and on about the personal responsibility to investigate 'beyond' statistics. People shouldn't need to 'investigate' to uncover scams because law schools shouldn't be trying to scam in the first place.

It's certainly a combo of both.

Well, yes, but between a person who didn't 'investigate' and a law school that put out blatant misrepresentations, I'm going to be more pissed at the latter.

[iowalum]

Also, the sheer fact that it's 'naive' to trust a law school doesn't authorize that law school to lie and mislead prospective applicants.

Did someone say that it does?

Plenty of people implied it by going on and on about the personal responsibility to investigate 'beyond' statistics. People shouldn't need to 'investigate' to uncover scams because law schools shouldn't be trying to scam in the first place.

That's a completely false extrapolation of what I've said. The students buying into it doesn't make it ok, I just don't think they should have bought into it. That's it.

The point is this: there is way more misrepresented information out there than there is information about the law school scam. People most likely are doing research, whatever that may be, and just seem to be missing out on information pertinent to making the right decision.

Playing from your analogy, if I met a girl at the bar who told me all about how awesome she is, and then I went to her house and thought it was nice, I talked to her friends who all had good things to say, she had a decent job, etc... would it be my fault to find out 3 years later that she was a convicted murderer with 180k in credit card debt? Was I supposed to do a background and credit check on her before I decided, 3 years later, to marry her?

Also, the point here is that in the case of these TTTT's (continuing the analogy) her friends wouldn't have good things to say, she doesn't have a decent job, etc. and you still married her. It doesn't take that much to figure out that many of these schools aren't very good.

[dowu]

[anom217]

Saying in a letter that their grads enjoy 90 percent LONG TERM employment in full time LEGAL positions is an outright lie. Thats not selective, just completely untrue.

It said 90% were employed in the legal field and 90% were in full time positions, which does NOT mean 90% of those employed in the legal field are the same 90% employed full-time. I'm sure a lot of the people in the first group have part-time or temp legal jobs, while you could have guys working full time at mcdonald's included in the second group.

[RedBirds2011]

Saying in a letter that their grads enjoy 90 percent LONG TERM employment in full time LEGAL positions is an outright lie. Thats not selective, just completely untrue.

It said 90% were employed in the legal field and 90% were in full time positions, which does NOT mean 90% of those employed in the legal field are the same 90% employed full-time. I'm sure a lot of the people in the first group have part-time or temp legal jobs, while you could have guys working full time at mcdonald's included in the second group.

Dude read the whole thread. This has already been discussed in detail.

[timbs4339]

Check out this "response" from Camden

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/05/rutgers- ... s#comments

Insider Higher Ed asked Dean Solomon point-blank if he felt the school’s recruitment effort was misleading to students, despite the technical accuracy of the numbers. Dean Solomon said this:

“I don’t know how to respond,” Solomon said. “If you have a hundred people, would four of them be misled? Would one be misled? Would 98 be misled? [It was] a piece that was designed to get people to think about something they hadn’t thought about. This wasn’t the only information they could get about it.”

[crossarmant]

Check out this "response" from Camden

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/05/rutgers- ... s#comments

Insider Higher Ed asked Dean Solomon point-blank if he felt the school’s recruitment effort was misleading to students, despite the technical accuracy of the numbers. Dean Solomon said this:

“I don’t know how to respond,” Solomon said. “If you have a hundred people, would four of them be misled? Would one be misled? Would 98 be misled? [It was] a piece that was designed to get people to think about something they hadn’t thought about. This wasn’t the only information they could get about it.”

http://blog.nj.com/njv_bob_braun/2012/0 ... iet_c.html

"Faculty members and students are leaving, applications are crashing through the floor. The trustees had before them documents showing that, for example, its law school has been able to persuade only 25 new admits to sign up and come so far this year. Who wants to go to the "New Rowan University Law School" when they thought they were going to Rutgers?"

The school is falling apart at the seams due to this merger discussion and the class is near to empty even after the deposit dates. They're scrambling to take in whoever they can without severely dropping admission requirements... but I doubt that will happen and they'll fold and start taking in 148s.

[crossarmant]

Apologies on double posts and thread necro-ing, but as a Rutgers student I got this email from the Dean today regarding this fiasco (Among the many emails we keep getting over the many fiascoes this place is dealing with):

"Dear Students,

I hope that you are all enjoying your summer pursuits. I am writing today about the recent recruitment email letter that has caused some discussion in the blogosphere, and which I know has been the subject of conversation in the law school community.

First and foremost, I want to state that the letter in question is accurate and consistent with Rutgers School of Law–Camden's commitment to provide clear information for all of its audiences, and the Law School stands by the accuracy of the data embedded within the message. The employment data used in the communication is based on employment statistics, which can be found on our website here: --LinkRemoved--

In addition, this communication was targeted to a specific audience—those individuals who had taken the GMAT, the standard examination for MBA programs. The message addressed the benefits of the JD/MBA program offered jointly with the Rutgers School of Business – Camden. In communicating with prospective students, we note the cross-disciplinary efficacy of a solid legal education that prepares you to be critical thinkers.

More generally, the faculty and administration appreciate the challenges confronting you and our recent graduates as you seek to enter the legal profession. We are working diligently to prepare you to become highly effective practitioners, through our nationally ranked legal writing program, the incorporation of lawyering skills across the curriculum, the deep and meaningful clinical and pro bono experiences; and through many of our other programs, in which so many of you participate and in which you serve as leaders. Our community receives extraordinary benefits from your commitment to serving in it.

Dean Camille Andrews has a long and respected career in law school admissions. I know that she worked individually with many of you when you were prospective students, and that she continues to work with you towards reaching your professional, academic, and personal goals. She enjoys a deserved reputation for her commitment to the success of our students and our graduates."


...

[badnews757]

Good luck on the June LSAT.

If you want to begin law school this fall, I encourage you to apply to Mississippi College School of Law (MC Law). Each year we reserve seats in the class for June test takers. We even have merit scholarships for well-credentialed candidates.

If you apply now, we will have your application in hand and can give you an admissions decision promptly after your LSAT score is released. We have no application fee if you apply on line. Be sure to choose Mississippi College School of Law from the drop down menu when you complete your application through LSAC.

I hope to meet you if you come for a visit. We would be pleased to show you around our downtown campus. Our web site is a helpful source of information (http://www.law.mc.edu).

We are known for our advocacy program, our skills training, and our close relationship with judges and attorneys. Our professors are superb. The state capital of Jackson offers a great quality of life.

Call Jay (601-925-7170) or Hope (601-925-7150) if you want to talk about our school and our program of legal education.

Warm Regards,

Jim Rosenblatt
Dean and Professor of Law
Mississippi College School of Law
"Let Justice Roll"

I thought it was funny how they said "on line" as two separate words. Also, the bogus claims about having a quality advocacy program - what a crock of shit. They clearly are pulling shit out of their ass. If a school is going to send emails in an act of desperation to recruit students, they should just not. I understand that it's a business (though, it really shouldn't be), but it's just outright fucked up.

I don't understand why you are bashing Mississippi College School of Law. Just take a look at the national advocacy rankings and that should shut you up. Not bad for being underdogs. In fact, they had the 4th ranked advocacy program in the nation last year.

2011 Andrews Kurth Moot Court Championship
National Champions: Mississippi College School of Law

--LinkRemoved--

2012 Moot Court National Championship
Participating Schools
--LinkRemoved--

Baylor University Law School

Chicago-Kent Law School

Duke University Law School

Florida Coastal Law School

George Washington University Law School

Loyola-Chicago University Law School

McGeorge School of Law, University of the Pacific

Mississippi College School of Law

Saint Louis University Law School

Seton Hall University Law School

South Texas College of Law

Stetson University Law School

Texas Tech University Law School

University of California-Hastings Law School

University of Florida Law School

William and Mary University Law School

[JamesChapman23]

Does that worthless competetion help the general student body get a job, badnews (the Miss College Rep)? Last time I checked they were meaningless competitions that nobody cares about- but TTTs like to write about in order to pretend like they aren't TTTs.

I'm sure those in 200k worth of debt and no job feel secure knowing their TTT was involved in the 2011 Andrews Kurth Moot Court Championship or had some completely pretend "specialty" rating.

[dowu]

Good luck on the June LSAT.

If you want to begin law school this fall, I encourage you to apply to Mississippi College School of Law (MC Law). Each year we reserve seats in the class for June test takers. We even have merit scholarships for well-credentialed candidates.

If you apply now, we will have your application in hand and can give you an admissions decision promptly after your LSAT score is released. We have no application fee if you apply on line. Be sure to choose Mississippi College School of Law from the drop down menu when you complete your application through LSAC.

I hope to meet you if you come for a visit. We would be pleased to show you around our downtown campus. Our web site is a helpful source of information (http://www.law.mc.edu).

We are known for our advocacy program, our skills training, and our close relationship with judges and attorneys. Our professors are superb. The state capital of Jackson offers a great quality of life.

Call Jay (601-925-7170) or Hope (601-925-7150) if you want to talk about our school and our program of legal education.

Warm Regards,

Jim Rosenblatt
Dean and Professor of Law
Mississippi College School of Law
"Let Justice Roll"

I thought it was funny how they said "on line" as two separate words. Also, the bogus claims about having a quality advocacy program - what a crock of shit. They clearly are pulling shit out of their ass. If a school is going to send emails in an act of desperation to recruit students, they should just not. I understand that it's a business (though, it really shouldn't be), but it's just outright fucked up.

I don't understand why you are bashing Mississippi College School of Law. Just take a look at the national advocacy rankings and that should shut you up. Not bad for being underdogs. In fact, they had the 4th ranked advocacy program in the nation last year.

2011 Andrews Kurth Moot Court Championship
National Champions: Mississippi College School of Law

--LinkRemoved--

2012 Moot Court National Championship
Participating Schools
--LinkRemoved--

Baylor University Law School

Chicago-Kent Law School

Duke University Law School

Florida Coastal Law School

George Washington University Law School

Loyola-Chicago University Law School

McGeorge School of Law, University of the Pacific

Mississippi College School of Law

Saint Louis University Law School

Seton Hall University Law School

South Texas College of Law

Stetson University Law School

Texas Tech University Law School

University of California-Hastings Law School

University of Florida Law School

William and Mary University Law School

Cool story. Im in AZ. Mississippi should not be emailing me, as I have no business in that part of the country. Mississippi is a regional school, at best. Wasn't bashing the quality of the school, even though they're bragging about some advocacy program that means close to nothing. HTH

[badnews757]

Good luck on the June LSAT.

If you want to begin law school this fall, I encourage you to apply to Mississippi College School of Law (MC Law). Each year we reserve seats in the class for June test takers. We even have merit scholarships for well-credentialed candidates.

If you apply now, we will have your application in hand and can give you an admissions decision promptly after your LSAT score is released. We have no application fee if you apply on line. Be sure to choose Mississippi College School of Law from the drop down menu when you complete your application through LSAC.

I hope to meet you if you come for a visit. We would be pleased to show you around our downtown campus. Our web site is a helpful source of information (http://www.law.mc.edu).

We are known for our advocacy program, our skills training, and our close relationship with judges and attorneys. Our professors are superb. The state capital of Jackson offers a great quality of life.

Call Jay (601-925-7170) or Hope (601-925-7150) if you want to talk about our school and our program of legal education.

Warm Regards,

Jim Rosenblatt
Dean and Professor of Law
Mississippi College School of Law
"Let Justice Roll"

I thought it was funny how they said "on line" as two separate words. Also, the bogus claims about having a quality advocacy program - what a crock of shit. They clearly are pulling shit out of their ass. If a school is going to send emails in an act of desperation to recruit students, they should just not. I understand that it's a business (though, it really shouldn't be), but it's just outright fucked up.

I don't understand why you are bashing Mississippi College School of Law. Just take a look at the national advocacy rankings and that should shut you up. Not bad for being underdogs. In fact, they had the 4th ranked advocacy program in the nation last year.

2011 Andrews Kurth Moot Court Championship
National Champions: Mississippi College School of Law

--LinkRemoved--

2012 Moot Court National Championship
Participating Schools
--LinkRemoved--

Baylor University Law School

Chicago-Kent Law School

Duke University Law School

Florida Coastal Law School

George Washington University Law School

Loyola-Chicago University Law School

McGeorge School of Law, University of the Pacific

Mississippi College School of Law

Saint Louis University Law School

Seton Hall University Law School

South Texas College of Law

Stetson University Law School

Texas Tech University Law School

University of California-Hastings Law School

University of Florida Law School

William and Mary University Law School

Cool story. Im in AZ. Mississippi should not be emailing me, as I have no business in that part of the country. Mississippi is a regional school, at best. Wasn't bashing the quality of the school, even though they're bragging about some advocacy program that means close to nothing. HTH

Tough life - getting pissed off for having a law school send you an email.

[dowu]

Tough life - getting pissed off for having a law school send you an email.

Who said I was pissed? I actually laughed when I read the email.

It sounds like you're pretty upset about me thinking they're full of shit for bragging about some preftigious award.

Tough life - getting pissed off at some random internet poster's opinion.

[badnews757]

Tough life - getting pissed off for having a law school send you an email.

Who said I was pissed? I actually laughed when I read the email.

It sounds like you're pretty upset about me thinking they're full of shit for bragging about some preftigious award.

Tough life - getting pissed off at some random internet poster's opinion.

No one's mad on this end of the information super highway, poopy pants. I was just providing some insight as to your opinion.

[moonman157]

Just out of curiosity, what is the faculty like at schools like this? I know that it is very difficult to break into acedamia, but how far down does that go? I find it so discouraging that there may be brilliant former HYS students who excelled in their respective fields partaking in this deceptive scheme. How can they just sit there in class and try to convince students that the education they're getting at these TTTT is worthwhile? How are they not urging their students to drop out and save tens of thousands of dollars?

[dingbat]

Just out of curiosity, what is the faculty like at schools like this? I know that it is very difficult to break into acedamia, but how far down does that go? I find it so discouraging that there may be brilliant former HYS students who excelled in their respective fields partaking in this deceptive scheme. How can they just sit there in class and try to convince students that the education they're getting at these TTTT is worthwhile? How are they not urging their students to drop out and save tens of thousands of dollars?

When you need to put food on a plate...

[moonman157]

Just out of curiosity, what is the faculty like at schools like this? I know that it is very difficult to break into acedamia, but how far down does that go? I find it so discouraging that there may be brilliant former HYS students who excelled in their respective fields partaking in this deceptive scheme. How can they just sit there in class and try to convince students that the education they're getting at these TTTT is worthwhile? How are they not urging their students to drop out and save tens of thousands of dollars?

When you need to put food on a plate...

Very true. I'm a 0L here still preparing myself for a lifetime of being disappointed by people through my work in the legal field