Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25) Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

BU 2011 employment statistics are out-- http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... s2011.html
19.8% of the class in 101+ firms.. eek.

(sorry if I'm super late.. I didn't think I saw them on this thread yet)

Any thoughts on why USC fared so much better in these 2011 employment stats vs BU (and I'm assuming BC)?

Because it's generally considered a better school? It really isn't something that's anomalous to this year.

ah okay, thanks for the info. For some reason, I thought they were more similar with respect to employment prospects.

They generally are. BU finished ahead of USC in NLJ250 placement in 2005 and 2010 and was closer in other years. I think it's more a case of USC doing really well than BU falling apart. BU still ranked 21st.

[AlanShore]

BU 2011 employment statistics are out-- http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... s2011.html
19.8% of the class in 101+ firms.. eek.

(sorry if I'm super late.. I didn't think I saw them on this thread yet)

Any thoughts on why USC fared so much better in these 2011 employment stats vs BU (and I'm assuming BC)?

Because it's generally considered a better school? It really isn't something that's anomalous to this year.

ah okay, thanks for the info. For some reason, I thought they were more similar with respect to employment prospects.

They generally are. BU finished ahead of USC in NLJ250 placement in 2005 and 2010 and was closer in other years. I think it's more a case of USC doing really well than BU falling apart. BU still ranked 21st.

Yeah, I thought BU/BC might have gotten hit harder in 08/09 because NY firms stopped recruiting there or recruited there significantly less.. whereas USC is super super strong in the LA market.

[rayiner]

The BU stat is likely about the Boston and NYC markets. USC is a core recruiting school for SoCal firms. In Boston, BU/BC are behind Harvard in line. NYC firms retrenched to the T14 during the recession, so you had a combination of stiff competition in the home market and no alternative market available.

[Tiago Splitter]

The BU stat is likely about the Boston and NYC markets. USC is a core recruiting school for SoCal firms. In Boston, BU/BC are behind Harvard in line. NYC firms retrenched to the T14 during the recession, so you had a combination of stiff competition in the home market and no alternative market available.

But even UCLA took a pretty big step back. Just a remarkable performance by USC to stay roughly even in NLJ250 placement given the way things dropped off everywhere else. Hell they finished ahead of Michigan and Georgetown.

[de5igual]

The BU stat is likely about the Boston and NYC markets. USC is a core recruiting school for SoCal firms. In Boston, BU/BC are behind Harvard in line. NYC firms retrenched to the T14 during the recession, so you had a combination of stiff competition in the home market and no alternative market available.

But even UCLA took a pretty big step back. Just a remarkable performance by USC to stay roughly even in NLJ250 placement given the way things dropped off everywhere else. Hell they finished ahead of Michigan and Georgetown.

Are UCLA's stats available already?

[AlanShore]

The BU stat is likely about the Boston and NYC markets. USC is a core recruiting school for SoCal firms. In Boston, BU/BC are behind Harvard in line. NYC firms retrenched to the T14 during the recession, so you had a combination of stiff competition in the home market and no alternative market available.

But even UCLA took a pretty big step back. Just a remarkable performance by USC to stay roughly even in NLJ250 placement given the way things dropped off everywhere else. Hell they finished ahead of Michigan and Georgetown.

Are UCLA's stats available already?

just looked. not yet.

[dingbat]

Fordham: 25% biglaw, 2% clerkship = 28% (25.5 + 2.5, but I figured rounding up would be cheating)

[rayiner]

Fordham: 25% biglaw, 2% clerkship = 28% (25.5 + 2.5, but I figured rounding up would be cheating)

I've been rounding at 0.5.

[dingbat]

Fordham: 25% biglaw, 2% clerkship = 28% (25.5 + 2.5, but I figured rounding up would be cheating)

I've been rounding at 0.5.

That's nice. Total is still 28% (seriously, 28.04%)

[KevinP]

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere.

Yale C/O 2011;
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/employment_2011.htm

25 were in law school funded positions (although these positions probably differ in that the people in these positions have better options than many others in law school funded positions).

[dingbat]

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere.

Yale C/O 2011;
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/employment_2011.htm

25 were in law school funded positions (although these positions probably differ in that the people in these positions have better options than many others in law school funded positions).

Thing is, a law school funded position isn't always as bad as it's made out to be.
I've seen arguments for and against and if it's a relatively large amount, one should be wary, but for a handful it's probably a good thing.
as an example, many schools offer short-term fellowships for while a person is studying for the bar, for work in a field that requires bar passage.
If the number is not outsized and the school is not too far down the rankings, it's probably best to ignore this category altogether, rather than to discount them as being unemployed

[manofjustice]

In the NLJ 250, Boston College seems to have pulled away from BU. BU seems dinged up bad. We will have to wait for Boston College's #s to compare.

There seem to be a few schools (like UCLA that was being talked about above) that just hung on, and some other schools that just couldn't.

I was reading this http://www.nalp.org/march12_perspectives_pr and this http://www.nalp.org/march12_perspectives_pr and basically Big Law offer rates to their summer classes are back, Big Law and Mid Law are back in the summer game (evidenced by the median class size rebounding), but the big summer classes of the largest firms seem to be missing (evidenced by an average class size that is still a third smaller than the the stable average of 12 the last decade, pre-crash).

So the question is, anyone have any data/stories on the size of summer classes in the OCI season that is coming up?

[dingbat]

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... yers_earn/
I know this is a year old, but it's good for figuring out legal markets.

[rayiner]

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere.

Yale C/O 2011;
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/employment_2011.htm

25 were in law school funded positions (although these positions probably differ in that the people in these positions have better options than many others in law school funded positions).

Thing is, a law school funded position isn't always as bad as it's made out to be.
I've seen arguments for and against and if it's a relatively large amount, one should be wary, but for a handful it's probably a good thing.
as an example, many schools offer short-term fellowships for while a person is studying for the bar, for work in a field that requires bar passage.
If the number is not outsized and the school is not too far down the rankings, it's probably best to ignore this category altogether, rather than to discount them as being unemployed

I disagree. Maybe Yale is different, but pre-ITE, schools had just a handful of people in law school-funded positions. Same is true for positions like business/industry and academia. U Chicago's placement into "academia" went from 0-3 pre-ITE, to 8 last year. I'm sure those extra 5 people were really in tenure track positions. The school's fellowship number went from 2 to 25.

[manofjustice]

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere.

Yale C/O 2011;
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/employment_2011.htm

25 were in law school funded positions (although these positions probably differ in that the people in these positions have better options than many others in law school funded positions).

Thing is, a law school funded position isn't always as bad as it's made out to be.
I've seen arguments for and against and if it's a relatively large amount, one should be wary, but for a handful it's probably a good thing.
as an example, many schools offer short-term fellowships for while a person is studying for the bar, for work in a field that requires bar passage.
If the number is not outsized and the school is not too far down the rankings, it's probably best to ignore this category altogether, rather than to discount them as being unemployed

I disagree. Maybe Yale is different, but pre-ITE, schools had just a handful of people in law school-funded positions. Same is true for positions like business/industry and academia. U Chicago's placement into "academia" went from 0-3 pre-ITE, to 8 last year. I'm sure those extra 5 people were really in tenure track positions. The school's fellowship number went from 2 to 25.

Rayiner is right. I think this thing has just hit the entire lot of um, from 1 to 197, like an earthquake. No way around it...

[dingbat]

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere.

Yale C/O 2011;
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/employment_2011.htm

25 were in law school funded positions (although these positions probably differ in that the people in these positions have better options than many others in law school funded positions).

Thing is, a law school funded position isn't always as bad as it's made out to be.
I've seen arguments for and against and if it's a relatively large amount, one should be wary, but for a handful it's probably a good thing.
as an example, many schools offer short-term fellowships for while a person is studying for the bar, for work in a field that requires bar passage.
If the number is not outsized and the school is not too far down the rankings, it's probably best to ignore this category altogether, rather than to discount them as being unemployed

I disagree. Maybe Yale is different, but pre-ITE, schools had just a handful of people in law school-funded positions. Same is true for positions like business/industry and academia. U Chicago's placement into "academia" went from 0-3 pre-ITE, to 8 last year. I'm sure those extra 5 people were really in tenure track positions. The school's fellowship number went from 2 to 25.

I do think 10% is probably high.
To play devil's advocate, a much smaller number are getting biglaw ITE.
Presumably, a number are now going into PI, NGO, or whatever they can get their hands on.
Quite possibly, a number of these positions require bar passage before one can start
Reasonably, some of these will account for the short-term school funded positions.

Note: I still take the category witha grain of salt; I just don't assume they're all bad

[rayiner]

I do think 10% is probably high.
To play devil's advocate, a much smaller number are getting biglaw ITE.
Presumably, a number are now going into PI, NGO, or whatever they can get their hands on.
Quite possibly, a number of these positions require bar passage before one can start
Reasonably, some of these will account for the short-term school funded positions.

Note: I still take the category witha grain of salt; I just don't assume they're all bad

They're definitely not all bad. Yale has a number of endowed fellowships, for example. However, the difference between ITE and pre-ITE numbers is pretty striking nonetheless.

[goldeneye]

Wasn't the deadline awhile ago? Why haven't BC or WashU posted yet/

[mrjohnsterman]

The ABA data is now up.

[Kurst]

The ABA data is now up.

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/home.aspx

[manofjustice]

What the heck happen happened to BU? BC trounced BU.

[KevinP]

Wow... NYU hired 56 of their own graduates.

[rayiner]

Wow... NYU hired 56 of their own graduates.

It's also interesting that after all of their kvetching about how the NLJ wasn't counting properly, the 40.1% NLJ 250 placement reported by NLJ is entirely in line with the 43.1% they report going to firms of 100+ attorneys. That's a discrepancy of 14. Some of that may be undercounting by NLJ, but others can be explained by people who went to firms between 100 and 160 (the smallest NLJ 250 firm) attorneys.

[manofjustice]

All of GWs school-funded jobs are "full time, long term" except one. Those jobs appear to be included in the "bar required, long term, full time" category as well. Seems fake.

[KevinP]

Thing is, a law school funded position isn't always as bad as it's made out to be.
I've seen arguments for and against and if it's a relatively large amount, one should be wary, but for a handful it's probably a good thing.
as an example, many schools offer short-term fellowships for while a person is studying for the bar, for work in a field that requires bar passage.
If the number is not outsized and the school is not too far down the rankings, it's probably best to ignore this category altogether, rather than to discount them as being unemployed

Yeah, I think Yale may be the exception though. Interestingly enough, for the C/O 2011, Harvard hired 33 of their grads and 13 are unemployed+seeking.

Wow... NYU hired 56 of their own graduates.

It's also interesting that after all of their kvetching about how the NLJ wasn't counting properly, the 40.1% NLJ 250 placement reported by NLJ is entirely in line with the 43.1% they report going to firms of 100+ attorneys. That's a discrepancy of 14. Some of that may be undercounting by NLJ, but others can be explained by people who went to firms between 100 and 160 (the smallest NLJ 250 firm) attorneys.

I'm wondering if this was the reason they delayed reporting their employment stats on their website. This is scary... law schools were hit hard.