Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[EquallyWrong]

When a Harvard Law School graduate fails to make partner, he is seen as the worst kind of failure by colleagues and prospective employers, because he entered with staggering advantages and promise.

...so after paying for all this prestige I'm just going to be viewed "as the worst kind of failure?" Sounds like the exact opposite of what I wanted.

[Princetonlaw68]

When a Harvard Law School graduate fails to make partner, he is seen as the worst kind of failure by colleagues and prospective employers, because he entered with staggering advantages and promise.

...so after paying for all this prestige I'm just going to be viewed "as the worst kind of failure?" Sounds like the exact opposite of what I wanted.

Don't feel too bad. If I became a shit lawyer I'd rather tell girls I'm one that went to Harvard Law than one who went to Tauro. At least you have something that signifies superior genes and/or a good background (even if some people on this site don't believe that). Girls care a lot about that kind of stuff when you're older than 25. (Anyone who finds this laughable, which I bet some of you do, is completely wrong. This is the truth.)

[muskies970]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

[SnakySalmon]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

I think basically everyone admits that being a doctor is also terrible. The main difference is that basically all doctors are aware of the fact that they have to do residency and work all the time, while lawyers are surprised their jobs suck.

[Brettanomyces]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

"Teacher's make about an apple a day more than doctors."

Kay. Except my doctor friend drives a Porsche and picks up girls with "I'm a doctor, baby."
He's also pretty suicidal.

(So?)

[PrideandGlory1776]

COA is nearing 300k at the T14.

Even Yale at sticker isn't a good deal. Thats 3.5k a month for 10 years.


Lets take Northwestern at sticker. NW is an average T14. Data is from here --->http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/c ... index.html

Bad Outcomes -
1.7% full time school jerbs
4.2% - Unemployed
1.4% grad degree
3.5% short term or part time

Salary outcomes
77.82% make over 60k (67% make over 100k)
5.63% are unemployed
4.23% don't report
12.3% between 0 and 60k

Good outcomes
70% make over 80k
8% clerking (presumably under 80k in salary)
3% public interesting (ditto)
6% gov't (ditto)
(1.75% for school funded) (because I presume they are in PI or gov't fulltime categories)

That's 87% in good outcomes. Or at least decent.

What do you think HLS or Yale's numbers are? 95%? Sure better, but not 150k worth.

False - Yale Law is the greatest investment a lawyer could ever conceivably make.

[EquallyWrong]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

I think basically everyone admits that being a doctor is also terrible. The main difference is that basically all doctors are aware of the fact that they have to do residency and work all the time, while lawyers are surprised their jobs suck.

For doctors there is a ROAD to riches: Radiology, Oncology, Anesthesiology, and Dermatology.
Outside of that, it seems like a constant jerk around.

[aboutmydaylight]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

I think basically everyone admits that being a doctor is also terrible. The main difference is that basically all doctors are aware of the fact that they have to do residency and work all the time, while lawyers are surprised their jobs suck.

For doctors there is a ROAD to riches: Radiology, Oncology, Anesthesiology, and Dermatology.
Outside of that, it seems like a constant jerk around.

All of those except Anesthesiology are among the top 5 most difficult specialties to get into though.

[lecsa]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

That's a dumb idea. Boring, too much memorization, a lot of douches, you waste away your youth, too much time spent in school, degree costs too much, did I mention boring.

Pretty sure the best option is to major in finance and go straight to into big 4, consulting, analyst etc.

[Pragmatic Gun]

That Esquire story was depressing, but Victor's story was really badass.

[Pragmatic Gun]

You guys just don't understand. The main exit options for HLS are BIGPOTUS (see Obama) and BIGSENATE (Ted Cruz). If a community organizer with a couple years of government experience can get BIGPOTUS and a mouthbreathing idiot with literally zero friends can get BIGSENATE, just because of the preftige of their Hahvahd degree, then the sky is the limit for all the bright, well-adjusted, friendly HLS admits and students we know and love here on TLS. I don't blame them at all for being frustrated that you guys can't see that.

I hear the Big POTUS industry sees fierce competition, there's like a huge unemployment rate in that field.

[dabigchina]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

That's a dumb idea. Boring, too much memorization, a lot of douches, you waste away your youth, too much time spent in school, degree costs too much, did I mention boring.

Pretty sure the best option is to major in finance and go straight to into big 4, consulting, analyst etc.

if you enjoy billing 2000 hours a year while making 60k, then yeah big4 is a great idea.

[dabigchina]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

That's a dumb idea. Boring, too much memorization, a lot of douches, you waste away your youth, too much time spent in school, degree costs too much, did I mention boring.

Pretty sure the best option is to major in finance and go straight to into big 4, consulting, analyst etc.

if you enjoy billing 2000 hours a year while making 60k, then yeah big4 is a great idea. pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.

[bizzike]

Same goes for consulting. Except on top of that, add 8 hrs per week wasted flying to and from scenic locations like Decatur.

[rayiner]

Re: big 4 and consulting. Someone with sticker debt in law is billing 2000+, while effectively making $70k. And they work a lot more to bill those 2000, because the work comes in a less steady stream. Also, it seems like an accounting or consulting background is something you can build a career on, and is attractive for a variety of business roles. In law, all that happens is younger more specialized as you go and less employable.

[jbagelboy]

Re: big 4 and consulting. Someone with sticker debt in law is billing 2000+, while effectively making $70k. And they work a lot more to bill those 2000, because the work comes in a less steady stream. Also, it seems like an accounting or consulting background is something you can build a career on, and is attractive for a variety of business roles. In law, all that happens is younger more specialized as you go and less employable.

Well except most consulting positions are 2-3 yr gigs where you go to get a JD or MBA afterwards anyway - or go into industry and gain some specific branding (like project management at F500 before going back to consult). And it's not like the network you've accrued as an entry level analyst is going to bring in business or carry you that far outside your role at that firm.

The hours aren't quite as bad as BL. The worst I ever worked was probably a 70 hour week. But it's not "a career" in itself.

Re: accounting, meh. CPA's have it pretty good at the entry level but you're plateau-ing pretty quick. People in law sometimes glorify these other white collar services but while they are good experience (esp consulting) you still have to make it your own to avoid being stuck at low six figures senior consultant w/ no specific client base for years on end

[Otunga]

to avoid being stuck at low six figures senior consultant w/ no specific client base for years on end

Sounds sweet.

[rayiner]

Re: big 4 and consulting. Someone with sticker debt in law is billing 2000+, while effectively making $70k. And they work a lot more to bill those 2000, because the work comes in a less steady stream. Also, it seems like an accounting or consulting background is something you can build a career on, and is attractive for a variety of business roles. In law, all that happens is younger more specialized as you go and less employable.

Well except most consulting positions are 2-3 yr gigs where you go to get a JD or MBA afterwards anyway - or go into industry and gain some specific branding (like project management at F500 before going back to consult). And it's not like the network you've accrued as an entry level analyst is going to bring in business or carry you that far outside your role at that firm.

The hours aren't quite as bad as BL. The worst I ever worked was probably a 70 hour week. But it's not "a career" in itself.

Re: accounting, meh. CPA's have it pretty good at the entry level but you're plateau-ing pretty quick. People in law sometimes glorify these other white collar services but while they are good experience (esp consulting) you still have to make it your own to avoid being stuck at low six figures senior consultant w/ no specific client base for years on end

I left engineering partly because I wanted to "avoid being stuck at low six figures" jobs, but frankly I overestimated how easy it would be to break that ceiling as a lawyer.

[Otunga]

Re: big 4 and consulting. Someone with sticker debt in law is billing 2000+, while effectively making $70k. And they work a lot more to bill those 2000, because the work comes in a less steady stream. Also, it seems like an accounting or consulting background is something you can build a career on, and is attractive for a variety of business roles. In law, all that happens is younger more specialized as you go and less employable.

Well except most consulting positions are 2-3 yr gigs where you go to get a JD or MBA afterwards anyway - or go into industry and gain some specific branding (like project management at F500 before going back to consult). And it's not like the network you've accrued as an entry level analyst is going to bring in business or carry you that far outside your role at that firm.

The hours aren't quite as bad as BL. The worst I ever worked was probably a 70 hour week. But it's not "a career" in itself.

Re: accounting, meh. CPA's have it pretty good at the entry level but you're plateau-ing pretty quick. People in law sometimes glorify these other white collar services but while they are good experience (esp consulting) you still have to make it your own to avoid being stuck at low six figures senior consultant w/ no specific client base for years on end

I left engineering partly because I wanted to "avoid being stuck at low six figures" jobs, but frankly I overestimated how easy it would be to break that ceiling as a lawyer.

Would you say a majority of biglaw associates are people who care a lot about a higher than low six figure salary? Or is it more a matter of them wanting the salary to have the ability to pay off their school debt? I'm a naive 0L, but I would say I'd be happy with 70k and up, if there's only minimal or no school debt to handle.

[rayiner]

Would you say a majority of biglaw associates are people who care a lot about a higher than low six figure salary? Or is it more a matter of them wanting the salary to have the ability to pay off their school debt? I'm a naive 0L, but I would say I'd be happy with 70k and up, if there's only minimal or no school debt to handle.

This is probably a combination of projection and my particular firm and its market (NYC), but I think it's quite common for big law associates to come from households making $200k+. It's very common for big lawyers to be the children of doctors, successful lawyers, bankers, consultants, etc. And I think these folks tend to place at least some emphasis on having a similar standard of living to their parents.

Is this a good reason to go to law school? No. It's a terrible reason. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a factor in many peoples' decision.

[lecsa]

http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

To everyone saying just become a doctor, thoughts?

That's a dumb idea. Boring, too much memorization, a lot of douches, you waste away your youth, too much time spent in school, degree costs too much, did I mention boring.

Pretty sure the best option is to major in finance and go straight to into big 4, consulting, analyst etc.

if you enjoy billing 2000 hours a year while making 60k, then yeah big4 is a great idea.

You get real skills though. And probably better exit opps in the long term. If you're 200k in debt in biglaw you're probably netting less.

Plus you can work anywhere as an accountant (including lower COL areas). In law you're either stuck in big cities or you get to work shitlaw in suburbs.

[lecsa]

Re: big 4 and consulting. Someone with sticker debt in law is billing 2000+, while effectively making $70k. And they work a lot more to bill those 2000, because the work comes in a less steady stream. Also, it seems like an accounting or consulting background is something you can build a career on, and is attractive for a variety of business roles. In law, all that happens is younger more specialized as you go and less employable.

This.

[bk1]

Would you say a majority of biglaw associates are people who care a lot about a higher than low six figure salary? Or is it more a matter of them wanting the salary to have the ability to pay off their school debt? I'm a naive 0L, but I would say I'd be happy with 70k and up, if there's only minimal or no school debt to handle.

This is probably a combination of projection and my particular firm and its market (NYC), but I think it's quite common for big law associates to come from households making $200k+. It's very common for big lawyers to be the children of doctors, successful lawyers, bankers, consultants, etc. And I think these folks tend to place at least some emphasis on having a similar standard of living to their parents.

Is this a good reason to go to law school? No. It's a terrible reason. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a factor in many peoples' decision.

I think that most Americans have been led to believe that they will have it at least as good as (if not better than) their parents, no matter their SES bracket.

[lecsa]

Re: big 4 and consulting. Someone with sticker debt in law is billing 2000+, while effectively making $70k. And they work a lot more to bill those 2000, because the work comes in a less steady stream. Also, it seems like an accounting or consulting background is something you can build a career on, and is attractive for a variety of business roles. In law, all that happens is younger more specialized as you go and less employable.

Well except most consulting positions are 2-3 yr gigs where you go to get a JD or MBA afterwards anyway - or go into industry and gain some specific branding (like project management at F500 before going back to consult). And it's not like the network you've accrued as an entry level analyst is going to bring in business or carry you that far outside your role at that firm.

The hours aren't quite as bad as BL. The worst I ever worked was probably a 70 hour week. But it's not "a career" in itself.

Re: accounting, meh. CPA's have it pretty good at the entry level but you're plateau-ing pretty quick. People in law sometimes glorify these other white collar services but while they are good experience (esp consulting) you still have to make it your own to avoid being stuck at low six figures senior consultant w/ no specific client base for years on end

I left engineering partly because I wanted to "avoid being stuck at low six figures" jobs, but frankly I overestimated how easy it would be to break that ceiling as a lawyer.

Would you say a majority of biglaw associates are people who care a lot about a higher than low six figure salary? Or is it more a matter of them wanting the salary to have the ability to pay off their school debt? I'm a naive 0L, but I would say I'd be happy with 70k and up, if there's only minimal or no school debt to handle.

I'd say 40% rich kids, and 60% people who want to pay off loans. Keep in mind that making six figures in a big city is like making five figures anywhere else. CNN published an article a few months back about comparable salaries around the country. Biglaw doesn't pay that much if you adjust for COL. It's like having a 50k job in the burbs.

[dresden doll]

i'll be a hls next year. as depressed as emu makes me when i consider that fact, i feel better thinking about hls's class size. pros and cons to a large class, but one of the benefits would seem to be that you get the full range of personalities, maturity, opinions, interests, etc. some bad eggs. some good people. and everything in between.

Don't worry. I know heaps of HLS students and all of them are really nice, interesting, and great people.

I don't mean to jump on you, but one thing I've noticed myself doing is redefining "nice" to mean "not outwardly abusive and hostile." Most law students are not "really nice" people. The teachers at my daughter's daycare are "really nice" people. Law students are, by and large, professional and civil and often witty and fun to be around. But not "nice" as ordinary people understand the term.

Totally true. And at some point, you'll cross into the territory where you can't even relate to the really nice people anymore.