2014 Rankings Released Forum

[Ruxin1]

Jne -

There was a write up a few years ago breaking down the pv of a legal education v the pv of te average future salary of an attorney over a 40 year career. It's conclusion was unless you go to a ttt/+t at full sticker it's a good deal. If you're paying $40k a year for a ttt then you're a moron.

That study is flawed in the sense that so many unsuccessful people leave the legal field though.

[Dr. Dre]

That study is flawed in the sense that so many unsuccessful people leave the legal field though.

[wannabelawstudent]

I just withdrew from every non-T30 I applied to. In my rejection letter I stated that I would reconsider them as a transfer institution or for my LLM if they were to drastically improve their rankings.

[JO 14]

My parents deal with investment bankers who are crazy rich (they usually will not touch a deal under $50M). As risk takers they lose sometimes, but when they win, they win it big.

I was thinking, what if they started a law school where they only accepted those with no less than a 3.8GPA/170 LSAT. Figure 50-75 students for a starter class — understanding that these students have their sights squarely set on a T14. For that reason they would have to offer a giant size carrot. Perhaps tuition free and a guarantee of a +$140K job for at least two years (which they might be able to do through their various in-house council companies and BL connections). Let’s say they invest in the idea and all that happens. What are the chances that they could become a highly ranked school inside of 3-4 years? Let’s face it USNWR is a God, but a very slow moving God when it comes to moving schools quickly up the food chain — even if that school had a 100% employment record and an outstanding GPA/LSAT acceptance record.

While I think theoretically that this could fly I have zero clue what the profit picture is for a highly ranked (top 20-40) law school. Hypothetically (aiming low) let’s say it is $10M a year, to me that could be an attractive return (perhaps 20% per year on their investment, maybe more later on).

Big question here. If your GPA/LSAT was worthy of a T-14 or highly ranked Tier 1, would you consider attending the school I outlined?

[jne381]

The rankings, and now the use of employment statistics, are frustrating. Yes, it is extremely helpful for potential students, but a numbered ranking system really is a disservice. For instance, if a school is strong in a particular region or market, and that market it particularly hard hit economic turmoil, it hurts the ranking

Good. If a school places predominately into one market, and that market has gotten much worse, the value of that school's JD program to a potential student is much worse. There are a lot of grounds to criticize the US News rankings, but I don't think one of those is that there's too much of an emphasis on employment outcomes.

Yes, but rankings are rarely for the people in that market. Those people generally know what a school is all about. Rankings are for those that don't know the market. Say some woman had planned on working in a particular market, but as she was about to graduate her husband gets a tremendous job offer to work somewhere else, and she then is forced to apply in a different market. A divided ranking system may show that the actually quality of the education she received is probably pretty good, even though that market it was in hit a tough spot. It helps potential employers not from that market help make the distinction between the school she went to and any other regional school.

It could mean the difference of getting an interview and just throwing a resume in the garbage.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

My parents deal with investment bankers who are crazy rich (they usually will not touch a deal under $50M). As risk takers they lose sometimes, but when they win, they win it big.

I was thinking, what if they started a law school where they only accepted those with no less than a 3.8GPA/170 LSAT. Figure 50-75 students for a starter class — understanding that these students have their sights squarely set on a T14. For that reason they would have to offer a giant size carrot. Perhaps tuition free and a guarantee of a +$140K job for at least two years (which they might be able to do through their various in-house council companies and BL connections). Let’s say they invest in the idea and all that happens. What are the chances that they could become a highly ranked school inside of 3-4 years? Let’s face it USNWR is a God, but a very slow moving God when it comes to moving schools quickly up the food chain — even if that school had a 100% employment record and an outstanding GPA/LSAT acceptance record.

While I think theoretically that this could fly I have zero clue what the profit picture is for a highly ranked (top 20-40) law school. Hypothetically (aiming low) let’s say it is $10M a year, to me that could be an attractive return (perhaps 20% per year on their investment, maybe more later on).

Big question here. If your GPA/LSAT was worthy of a T-14 or highly ranked Tier 1, would you consider attending the school I outlined?

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

[JO 14]

My parents deal with investment bankers who are crazy rich (they usually will not touch a deal under $50M). As risk takers they lose sometimes, but when they win, they win it big.

I was thinking, what if they started a law school where they only accepted those with no less than a 3.8GPA/170 LSAT. Figure 50-75 students for a starter class — understanding that these students have their sights squarely set on a T14. For that reason they would have to offer a giant size carrot. Perhaps tuition free and a guarantee of a +$140K job for at least two years (which they might be able to do through their various in-house council companies and BL connections). Let’s say they invest in the idea and all that happens. What are the chances that they could become a highly ranked school inside of 3-4 years? Let’s face it USNWR is a God, but a very slow moving God when it comes to moving schools quickly up the food chain — even if that school had a 100% employment record and an outstanding GPA/LSAT acceptance record.

While I think theoretically that this could fly I have zero clue what the profit picture is for a highly ranked (top 20-40) law school. Hypothetically (aiming low) let’s say it is $10M a year, to me that could be an attractive return (perhaps 20% per year on their investment, maybe more later on).

Big question here. If your GPA/LSAT was worthy of a T-14 or highly ranked Tier 1, would you consider attending the school I outlined?

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

How is that working out?

Edit: Who or what is UCI?

[hobie2515]

What are the chances that they could become a highly ranked school inside of 3-4 years? Let’s face it USNWR is a God, but a very slow moving God when it comes to moving schools quickly up the food chain — even if that school had a 100% employment record and an outstanding GPA/LSAT acceptance record.

Probably little chance. There is a lot more that goes into the rankings other than LSAT/GPA. Plus such a school would buck all forms of conventional school models, something the schools, faculty and administrators would never allow. Read "Failing Law Schools" by Tamanaha, it goes into rankings, accreditation all that jazz.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

How is that working out?

Edit: Who or what is UCI?

[wannabelawstudent]

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

How is that working out?

Edit: Who or what is UCI?

UC-Irvine, what you described is literally the exact same thing they are doing right now.

[hobie2515]

Didn't mean to attribute the quote to you wannabe, my bad.

[JO 14]

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

I thank you for that info. I checked into the school, it is like looking into a crystal ball. Pretty sure, but not positive, that this blueprint could ultimately be very profitable (for those with patient $). It certainly lends itself to the likelihood that a second school using this strategy could be very successful. Especially if one of UCI’s higher ups could be poached (or hired as a consultant) to walk a new school through the mind fields.

Since their median GPA is 167 for an unranked school, apparently a number of students bypassed the T14 for a [near] debt free LS offering promise. If I had known about this opportunity I certainly would have strongly considered UCI. How about everyone else, did you pass it up and just did not know about it?

[09042014]

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

I thank you for that info. I checked into the school, it is like looking into a crystal ball. Pretty sure, but not positive, that this blueprint could ultimately be very profitable (for those with patient $). It certainly lends itself to the likelihood that a second school using this strategy could be very successful. Especially if one of UCI’s higher ups could be poached (or hired as a consultant) to walk a new school through the mind fields.

Since their median GPA is 167 for an unranked school, apparently a number of students bypassed the T14 for a [near] debt free LS offering promise. If I had known about this opportunity I certainly would have strongly considered UCI. How about everyone else, did you pass it up and just did not know about it?

They only gave out the fullride the first year. The second year it was half rides. I dunno about years 3-4. And apparently their student numbers have dropped accordingly. And their class size has grown.

C/O 2012 UCI was a risk that paid off. I don't think it makes sense anymore.

[Golden Bear 11]

UCI median dropped to 165

[A. Nony Mouse]

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

I thank you for that info. I checked into the school, it is like looking into a crystal ball. Pretty sure, but not positive, that this blueprint could ultimately be very profitable (for those with patient $). It certainly lends itself to the likelihood that a second school using this strategy could be very successful. Especially if one of UCI’s higher ups could be poached (or hired as a consultant) to walk a new school through the mind fields.

Since their median GPA is 167 for an unranked school, apparently a number of students bypassed the T14 for a [near] debt free LS offering promise. If I had known about this opportunity I certainly would have strongly considered UCI. How about everyone else, did you pass it up and just did not know about it?

Where's Dr. Dre when you need him?

[JO 14]

UCI median dropped to 165

Still, pretty much the range of Notre Dame, Emory and Alabama. To me, impressive for a LS with no alumni or ranking for that matter. For the investor the question is, what is the upside in five years after investing + $50M into a startup? For the grad (or at least 50% of the class), hard to say how they come out if the school doesn’t break into tier 1.

[warandpeace]

UCI is a few years ahead of you, hon.

I thank you for that info. I checked into the school, it is like looking into a crystal ball. Pretty sure, but not positive, that this blueprint could ultimately be very profitable (for those with patient $). It certainly lends itself to the likelihood that a second school using this strategy could be very successful. Especially if one of UCI’s higher ups could be poached (or hired as a consultant) to walk a new school through the mind fields.

Since their median GPA is 167 for an unranked school, apparently a number of students bypassed the T14 for a [near] debt free LS offering promise. If I had known about this opportunity I certainly would have strongly considered UCI. How about everyone else, did you pass it up and just did not know about it?

are you ok?

[wannabelawstudent]

UCI isn't offering free law school anymore...

[JO 14]

UCI isn't offering free law school anymore...

So, are they making $?

[Dmini7]

UCI median dropped to 165

Still, pretty much the range of Notre Dame, Emory and Alabama. To me, impressive for a LS with no alumni or ranking for that matter. For the investor the question is, what is the upside in five years after investing + $50M into a startup? For the grad (or at least 50% of the class), hard to say how they come out if the school doesn’t break into tier 1.

Take this with a grain of salt, and don't kill the messenger, but when I visited the school today one of the prospective students in my group asked where they thought the school would be ranked since they initially sought after a top 20 ranking. The 2L who was our guide stated that Dean Chem believed they would enter around 18, and she personally thinks over time they would settle to 15. I personally think that is an insane belief, and I do not see them ever truly competing with USC/UCLA, but being above Davis (sort of the middle ground). I was not able to ask Dean Chem if that was truly his belief, or just the student trying to keep students interested, but even if they gamed the rankings hardcore, I just don't see them ever doing that. I think if they manage to break into the top 30 that in itself would be a major accomplishment and pretty insane considering how new and unprecedented it is for a new school to debut so high.

Also to the comments, they stopped giving the entire class blanket scholarships in the third year (1st=full ride, 2nd=50% 3rd=33%).

[alwayssunnyinfl]

Yeah, there are a lot of solid freaking schools in the top 30 or so schools that have solid reputations, alumni networks, and market connections. I don't see how ANOTHER UC school in an over saturated market could unseat all of them to land at 18 or 15. 30 would be optimistic, top 50 would be appropriate.

People seem to forget that the LSAT is important in rankings not because it's a large proportion of the rankings (it's not.) The schools focus on medians because it's the easiest thing they can game in the short run.

[005618502]

UCI median dropped to 165

Still, pretty much the range of Notre Dame, Emory and Alabama. To me, impressive for a LS with no alumni or ranking for that matter. For the investor the question is, what is the upside in five years after investing + $50M into a startup? For the grad (or at least 50% of the class), hard to say how they come out if the school doesn’t break into tier 1.

Take this with a grain of salt, and don't kill the messenger, but when I visited the school today one of the prospective students in my group asked where they thought the school would be ranked since they initially sought after a top 20 ranking. The 2L who was our guide stated that Dean Chem believed they would enter around 18, and she personally thinks over time they would settle to 15. I personally think that is an insane belief, and I do not see them ever truly competing with USC/UCLA, but being above Davis (sort of the middle ground). I was not able to ask Dean Chem if that was truly his belief, or just the student trying to keep students interested, but even if they gamed the rankings hardcore, I just don't see them ever doing that. I think if they manage to break into the top 30 that in itself would be a major accomplishment and pretty insane considering how new and unprecedented it is for a new school to debut so high.

Also to the comments, they stopped giving the entire class blanket scholarships in the third year (1st=full ride, 2nd=50% 3rd=33%).

There is just no way UCI is going to rank above UCLA or USC, even in the distant future. Everyone who grew up in CA knows that UCLA/USC>>UCI in all aspects whether its reputation or the experience. People who are currently choosing UCI over UCLA or even USC are making a really big mistake unless they are going for really cheap. I dont even see UCI coming in at 18... I could see them falling in right behind WUSTL or Emory, but not much better than that. Why would they be above WUSTL when their medians are worse.... makes no sense.

[anticule]

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[pedestrian]

UCI isn't offering free law school anymore...

So, are they making $?

They are not-for-profit, as is every law school with a shred of credibility. The only accredited for-profit law schools (as far as I know) are Florida Coastal, Phoenix, Charlotte, and John Marshall in Atlanta. All of them are unranked toilets.

You would have a very tough time attracting quality faculty and students. What you might do is turn a profit scamming a few thousand gullible kids into six figures of debt. It is a shrinking market though, and Congress is starting to wise up to that trick. I would pass.

[Lasers]

uci over ucla/usc? come again?

i'm hard of hearing.