Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School Forum

[jbagelboy]

How should current 0L's interpret this data? Since there's about a year and a half until we go through OCI?

You should use this data in deciding what schools provide the best shot at biglaw or clerkships. The only outlier of the general placement trend is CLS, which has a subpar clerkship office, but anyone with good grades and hustle can still land clerkships.

A single year's data isn't as important as trends. Once the data is out and I have free time I will post a chart that shows 3 year trends. That trend data is more important than a single year data point.

lol Nebby

What makes you think the offices at Cornell/UPenn/NU aren't similarly "bad" and deflating the clerkship numbers? (or that Chicago's/Harvard's clerkship offices are operating/placing students at their full potential?) Weird, unfounded comment to make.

because if you have clerked or gone through the application process, have any experience with judges and know those schools are not being treated identically, and can compare to an experience with Columbia's clerkship office, you see how unique the administrative failure has been and how it has an outsized impact on a single metric (students beginning their clerkship within 9 months of graduation), masking the far larger number of students that ultimately do clerk. To Columbia's credit they have begun to publish (and distribute internally) total starting federal clerkship numbers for the year as opposed to first years.

[existentialcrisis]

How should current 0L's interpret this data? Since there's about a year and a half until we go through OCI?

It's probably more helpful to look at the data and school trends over the last several years. Also to keep in mind that probably a good deal of it is self-selection related.

[Dr. Nefario]

BU's not *live* but messing around with the link got me the tentative info as of March 15.

https://www.bu.edu/law/careers/employme ... 6-testing/

2015 2016 Difference
Big Law. 70. 78. +8
Fed Clerk. 2. 2. --
Total Grads 208. 222. +14
Percentage. 34.6%. 36%. +1.5%

10% increase since Class of 2013.

ETA: went through and tried this for the rest of the t14 and several others, but didn't work.

That link doesn't work, requires a login?

Yeah you have to have a current student account to access that link. I'm sure the regular link will be up eventually and I'll post it then. But as of right now, the percentage for Class of 2016 is 36%

[runinthefront]

How should current 0L's interpret this data? Since there's about a year and a half until we go through OCI?

You should use this data in deciding what schools provide the best shot at biglaw or clerkships. The only outlier of the general placement trend is CLS, which has a subpar clerkship office, but anyone with good grades and hustle can still land clerkships.

A single year's data isn't as important as trends. Once the data is out and I have free time I will post a chart that shows 3 year trends. That trend data is more important than a single year data point.

lol Nebby

What makes you think the offices at Cornell/UPenn/NU aren't similarly "bad" and deflating the clerkship numbers? (or that Chicago's/Harvard's clerkship offices are operating/placing students at their full potential?) Weird, unfounded comment to make.

because if you have clerked or gone through the application process, have any experience with judges and know those schools are not being treated identically, and can compare to an experience with Columbia's clerkship office, you see how unique the administrative failure has been and how it has an outsized impact on a single metric (students beginning their clerkship within 9 months of graduation), masking the far larger number of students that ultimately do clerk. To Columbia's credit they have begun to publish (and distribute internally) total starting federal clerkship numbers for the year as opposed to first years.

I don't understand why the same couldn't be said about a place like Cornell, for instance, who just got a clerkship office two years ago, and whose students generally clerk one year out from graduation (and still, though to a lesser extent now, do the heavy lifting on their own). Without having experience with Chicago's clerkship office, or Michigan's, or NU's, how can one really say that Columbia is the only school with misleading numbers? You've really done nothing to back up Nebby's assertion, jbagel. However, I really didn't understand the first part of your response, so maybe I'm missing something.

Neither you nor Nebby have ever clerked/worked in a clerkship admissions office (much less multiple ones to compare and contrast), so it's just a weird point to make. I'm not doubting that Columbia's numbers aren't misleading (they most definitely are, and probably don't reflect Columbia'ss ful placement potential), but to say that it's only happening at CLS is weird.

[thereelfeels]

Dickinson - 3/34 - 8.8% (+5.3%)

Are you doing this right? I get Dickinson has small class sizes but 34 seems abnormally small. You should divide by the total grads, not just the employed grads.

No, it's correct. After Dickinson and Penn State split apart, both schools counted their individual graduates for employment purposes so each school's counted grads are abnormally small. Last year Dickinson counted around 50 grads, this year they had 34 - they're enrolling classes of around 70 now.

Here's the link: https://dickinsonlaw.psu.edu/sites/defa ... duates.pdf

Edit - link is broken. It's not officially released, but I found it by messing around with the URLs.

[Nebby]

How should current 0L's interpret this data? Since there's about a year and a half until we go through OCI?

You should use this data in deciding what schools provide the best shot at biglaw or clerkships. The only outlier of the general placement trend is CLS, which has a subpar clerkship office, but anyone with good grades and hustle can still land clerkships.

A single year's data isn't as important as trends. Once the data is out and I have free time I will post a chart that shows 3 year trends. That trend data is more important than a single year data point.

lol Nebby

What makes you think the offices at Cornell/UPenn/NU aren't similarly "bad" and deflating the clerkship numbers? (or that Chicago's/Harvard's clerkship offices are operating/placing students at their full potential?) Weird, unfounded comment to make.

because if you have clerked or gone through the application process, have any experience with judges and know those schools are not being treated identically, and can compare to an experience with Columbia's clerkship office, you see how unique the administrative failure has been and how it has an outsized impact on a single metric (students beginning their clerkship within 9 months of graduation), masking the far larger number of students that ultimately do clerk. To Columbia's credit they have begun to publish (and distribute internally) total starting federal clerkship numbers for the year as opposed to first years.

I don't understand why the same couldn't be said about a place like Cornell, for instance, who just got a clerkship office two years ago, and whose students generally clerk one year out from graduation (and still, though to a lesser extent now, do the heavy lifting on their own). Without having experience with Chicago's clerkship office, or Michigan's, or NU's, how can one really say that Columbia is the only school with misleading numbers? You've really done nothing to back up Nebby's assertion, jbagel. However, I really didn't understand the first part of your response, so maybe I'm missing something.

Neither you nor Nebby have ever clerked/worked in a clerkship admissions office (much less multiple ones to compare and contrast), so it's just a weird point to make. I'm not doubting that Columbia's numbers aren't misleading (they most definitely are, and probably don't reflect Columbia'ss ful placement potential), but to say that it's only happening at CLS is weird.

What a weird, weird hill to fight on

[runinthefront]

What a weird, weird hill to fight on

This is true.

[OneHandedEconomist]

How should current 0L's interpret this data? Since there's about a year and a half until we go through OCI?

You should use this data in deciding what schools provide the best shot at biglaw or clerkships. The only outlier of the general placement trend is CLS, which has a subpar clerkship office, but anyone with good grades and hustle can still land clerkships.

A single year's data isn't as important as trends. Once the data is out and I have free time I will post a chart that shows 3 year trends. That trend data is more important than a single year data point.

lol Nebby

What makes you think the offices at Cornell/UPenn/NU aren't similarly "bad" and deflating the clerkship numbers? (or that Chicago's/Harvard's clerkship offices are operating/placing students at their full potential?) Weird, unfounded comment to make.

because if you have clerked or gone through the application process, have any experience with judges and know those schools are not being treated identically, and can compare to an experience with Columbia's clerkship office, you see how unique the administrative failure has been and how it has an outsized impact on a single metric (students beginning their clerkship within 9 months of graduation), masking the far larger number of students that ultimately do clerk. To Columbia's credit they have begun to publish (and distribute internally) total starting federal clerkship numbers for the year as opposed to first years.

I don't understand why the same couldn't be said about a place like Cornell, for instance, who just got a clerkship office two years ago, and whose students generally clerk one year out from graduation (and still, though to a lesser extent now, do the heavy lifting on their own). Without having experience with Chicago's clerkship office, or Michigan's, or NU's, how can one really say that Columbia is the only school with misleading numbers? You've really done nothing to back up Nebby's assertion, jbagel. However, I really didn't understand the first part of your response, so maybe I'm missing something.

Neither you nor Nebby have ever clerked/worked in a clerkship admissions office (much less multiple ones to compare and contrast), so it's just a weird point to make. I'm not doubting that Columbia's numbers aren't misleading (they most definitely are, and probably don't reflect Columbia'ss ful placement potential), but to say that it's only happening at CLS is weird.

What a weird, weird hill to fight on

I move for Nebby to include clerk+biglaw figures in OP

[Nebby]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

[runinthefront]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

I don't disagree at all! I guess that I was just noting that CLS was the only school you had intimate knowledge of, so it was "weird" to say that CLS is the only school whose low clerkship numbers, relative to its disproportionately high biglaw stats, don't really reveal its true placement power due to the lack of historical institutional support (I'd argue that SDNY/EDNY's tendency to only take those w/ one year of work experience probably also deflates the numbers a little bit). I only have experience with Cornell, so I can only speak for Cornell. But I'd say the same thing is true here.

[Nebby]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

I don't disagree at all! I guess that I was just noting that CLS was the only school you had intimate knowledge of, so it was "weird" to say that CLS is the only school whose low clerkship numbers, relative to its disproportionately high biglaw stats, don't really reveal its true placement power due to the lack of historical institutional support (I'd argue that SDNY/EDNY's tendency to only take those w/ one year of work experience probably also deflates the numbers a little bit).

I also think CLS students are largely unwilling to clerk in flyover districts so naturally the numbers are going to be low since they seem to mostly care about the big 3 regions.

[BigZuck]

If you guys think this is bad, the mental gymnastics I'm going to do when UT's numbers drop are going to put Nebby/Bagelboy to SHAME.

Seriously I'm going to Simone Biles that shit. They'll look like Kyla Ross in comparison AT BEST

[Tiago Splitter]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

I think the confusion stems from the fact that you said this data gives the best idea about what schools place well in biglaw and fed clerkships, then said except for CLS which is the outlier. The non-clerk people mostly just do biglaw so it makes no difference.

[thereelfeels]

Temple - 50/202 - 24.8% (+7.8%)

Very nice showing for Temple.

[Stephylynette]

Temple - 50/202 - 24.8% (+7.8%)

Very nice showing for Temple.

Can you include links please? Lol

[Lincoln]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

I don't disagree at all! I guess that I was just noting that CLS was the only school you had intimate knowledge of, so it was "weird" to say that CLS is the only school whose low clerkship numbers, relative to its disproportionately high biglaw stats, don't really reveal its true placement power due to the lack of historical institutional support (I'd argue that SDNY/EDNY's tendency to only take those w/ one year of work experience probably also deflates the numbers a little bit).

I also think CLS students are largely unwilling to clerk in flyover districts so naturally the numbers are going to be low since they seem to mostly care about the big 3 regions.

Just on my floor at 500 Pearl there are 5 CLS grads. You guys really do seem to be having a tough time placing, so I feel for you.

[jbagelboy]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

I don't disagree at all! I guess that I was just noting that CLS was the only school you had intimate knowledge of, so it was "weird" to say that CLS is the only school whose low clerkship numbers, relative to its disproportionately high biglaw stats, don't really reveal its true placement power due to the lack of historical institutional support (I'd argue that SDNY/EDNY's tendency to only take those w/ one year of work experience probably also deflates the numbers a little bit).

I also think CLS students are largely unwilling to clerk in flyover districts so naturally the numbers are going to be low since they seem to mostly care about the big 3 regions.

Just on my floor at 500 Pearl there are 5 CLS grads. You guys really do seem to be having a tough time placing, so I feel for you.

I bet most of them are not Class of 2016.

[favabeansoup]

Notre Dame is up.

http://law.nd.edu/assets/232629/aba_emp ... f_2016.pdf

54 in 100+ firms
9 in Fed Clerks
172 Total Grads

36.6% Biglaw/Fed Clerk. [ 2015: was 40.2%, so -3.6% this year]

[favabeansoup]

George Washington is also up.

https://www.law.gwu.edu/sites/www.law.g ... f-2016.pdf

176 in 100+ firms
21 in Fed Clerks
555 Total Graduates

35.49% Biglaw/Fed Clerk numbers. [2015: was 35.48%, so basically no change]

Sidenote: 2015 Total Grads were 465, 2016 Total Grads was 555. GW adding almost 100 kids to class size? Numbers surely would have been slightly better if classes were kept ~450 level.

[favabeansoup]

UCI is also up.

http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... ry2016.pdf

17 in 100+ firms
16 in Fed Clerks
118 Total Grads

27.96% Biglaw/Fed Clerk. [2015: was 28.18 (repeating of course) %. Basically the same]

[RParadela]

Notre Dame is up.

http://law.nd.edu/assets/232629/aba_emp ... f_2016.pdf

54 in 100+ firms
9 in Fed Clerks
172 Total Grads

36.6% Biglaw/Fed Clerk. [ 2015: was 40.2%, so -3.6% this year]

NoTTTre Dame confirmed

[thereelfeels]

Temple - 50/202 - 24.8% (+7.8%)

Very nice showing for Temple.

Can you include links please? Lol

Here is Temple: https://www.law.temple.edu/site/wp-cont ... t-2016.pdf

[Lavitz]

What a weird, weird hill to fight on

This is true.

Yeah, I'll back up runinthefront on this point, but I think a more concise response would have been: "I don't know if you can say CLS is the only outlier since in my opinion you could make the same argument for Cornell, which also had a complete lack of clerkship resources up until a few years ago." But I understand why he jumped at this, since I know I keep getting PMs asking me to explain Cornell's lower clerkship placement.

I also think CLS students are largely unwilling to clerk in flyover districts so naturally the numbers are going to be low since they seem to mostly care about the big 3 regions.

I'd agree with this too based on my experience. In my non-2/9/DC circuit, there are just two CLS grads. I'm the only Cornell grad. No NYU grads. I think the clerkship numbers for all 3 schools might be a bit deflated because most students there want to stay in (or in Cornell's case get back to) NYC, and the NYC judges hire farther out in advance, so those clerks won't show up in the statistics, as evidenced by:

Just on my floor at 500 Pearl there are 5 CLS grads. You guys really do seem to be having a tough time placing, so I feel for you.

I bet most of them are not Class of 2016.

ETA: There will also be at least 8 Cornell grads in SDNY next term, and only 1 of them will be c/o 2017.

[Yankees1313]

BC law is up.

https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/law/c ... stics.html

[OneHandedEconomist]

My point was that the % of a class in biglaw/clerkship generally shows their placement power. CLS, however, has a high total % due to disproportionately high biglaw stats and disproportionately low clerkship stats. (this isn't the case at most of the other T13 schools who have a relatively more even distribution). CLS' clerkship numbers would indicate that it lacks placement power in clerkships, but my point was (since it's the only school I have intimate knowledge of) that this isn't really the case, but rather it is the lack of institutional support that leads to lower clerkship numbers and that any student with good grades (GPA: 3.5+) at CLS could land a clerkship (not competitive ones but regular ones) if they hustle.

I don't disagree at all! I guess that I was just noting that CLS was the only school you had intimate knowledge of, so it was "weird" to say that CLS is the only school whose low clerkship numbers, relative to its disproportionately high biglaw stats, don't really reveal its true placement power due to the lack of historical institutional support (I'd argue that SDNY/EDNY's tendency to only take those w/ one year of work experience probably also deflates the numbers a little bit).

I also think CLS students are largely unwilling to clerk in flyover districts so naturally the numbers are going to be low since they seem to mostly care about the big 3 regions.

Ahhh, so THIS is why you aren't breaking down clerkship + BL in the OP.