Penn vs. Michigan Forum

[cron1834]

Most applicants don't get one on ones with the head of admissions on the day you just happen to show up. They go to probably 30 or more events where you can say hi, or at admitted student weekends, or you can try to set something up in advance. Law school ain't undergrad. When you interview for your first job don't be too disappointed if it isn't the head of the DOJ or other relevant agency who sees you. You can choose Penn but there is really no reason to condemn Michigan. It is unbecoming.

Unbecoming? That's rude. She's just giving her experience.
Many people find Dean Z an extremely tiresome try hard Asha wannabe. I happen to be one of them

God you're an infant.

Anyway, this is clearly irrelevant. As OP has discovered, Michigan doesn't have full time admissions staff, just a series of student volunteers that take turns with wigs. OP will definitely enjoy the paid professionals at Penn.

[michlaw]

The only thing you should care about admissions is did they let you in. Once 1L starts you will never see them again. If the op wants to belittle admissions offices they should try the T6 who obviously didn't get it right. Congrats on Penn. It is marginally better, but only marginally, and maybe not enough to justify the increased cost in this case, than Michigan. Philly is less than stellar but then again so is New Haven. You are only going to school there for a short period of time.

[slizerd]

Most applicants don't get one on ones with the head of admissions on the day you just happen to show up. They go to probably 30 or more events where you can say hi, or at admitted student weekends, or you can try to set something up in advance. Law school ain't undergrad. When you interview for your first job don't be too disappointed if it isn't the head of the DOJ or other relevant agency who sees you. You can choose Penn but there is really no reason to condemn Michigan. It is unbecoming.

As it was scheduled a month in advance, I don't think this applies. Also I wasn't expecting to meet her, I just said it would have been nice (because she does seem cool). I'm not sure why you're so offended by this; I've said over and over that mich is a great school, but that personal preference led me to choose Penn.

[Toodle-loo]

Good god, she didn't "condemn" Michigan OR make her choice solely based on a visit to admissions. Did you people even read the fucking thread?

Go kick rocks, stop being assholes for fun.

[Toodle-loo]

If I remember correctly, Cron is a 2L at Michigan and I'm assuming Michlaw is either a student or an alum, so if that's any representation of the student body, I don't blame Sliz for running.

[slizerd]

If I remember correctly, Cron is a 2L at Michigan and I'm assuming Michlaw is either a student or an alum, so if that's any representation of the student body, I don't blame Sliz for running.

Lol this thread is making me increasingly happier that I chose Penn

[michlaw]

"I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it"

Sorry but this qualifies as a pretty negative commentary and needs addressing. It is anecdotal at best. You simply have to visit the website to see the list of professionals in the Michigan admissions office. To suggest they don't exist or that it is staffed by students is silly, incorrect, and insulting. No need to denigrate the number 8 school cause you think the number 6 school is so much better. Why is this not simple prestige whoring?

[Tls2016]

Most applicants don't get one on ones with the head of admissions on the day you just happen to show up. They go to probably 30 or more events where you can say hi, or at admitted student weekends, or you can try to set something up in advance. Law school ain't undergrad. When you interview for your first job don't be too disappointed if it isn't the head of the DOJ or other relevant agency who sees you. You can choose Penn but there is really no reason to condemn Michigan. It is unbecoming.

Unbecoming? That's rude. She's just giving her experience.
Many people find Dean Z an extremely tiresome try hard Asha wannabe. I happen to be one of them

God you're an infant.

Anyway, this is clearly irrelevant. As OP has discovered, Michigan doesn't have full time admissions staff, just a series of student volunteers that take turns with wigs. OP will definitely enjoy the paid professionals at Penn.

The worrying part of this thread is Michigans opaque financial aid repayment plan which won't help OP at all with $60,000 of debt. None of that is clear from the presentation posted on the website but that is from 2011.

[Tls2016]

"I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it"

Sorry but this qualifies as a pretty negative commentary and needs addressing. It is anecdotal at best. You simply have to visit the website to see the list of professionals in the Michigan admissions office. To suggest they don't exist or that it is staffed by students is silly, incorrect, and insulting. No need to denigrate the number 8 school cause you think the number 6 school is so much better. Why is this not simple prestige whoring?

Are you serious? You are the only one who brought up ranking in this thread.
Why are you guys so sensitive? OP prefers Penn. I doubt anyone believes there are only students running admissions. Only students were there when she arrived and they are disorganized. That is a fair comment.
Though I do enjoy the chance to troll the cutsey Dean Z and I admit it's childish.

[slizerd]

"I visited Michigan and did not love it at all even though I really, really wanted to their admissions staff is all students; there are no actual full-time admissions people that I saw which made me nervous. It could have just been that day, but still :/
Even though my visit was scheduled a month in advance, they forgot which things I was scheduled for etc. And they had a last minute 1L tour guide that was extremely nervous about finding a job after graduation, and the students all seemed sad. I had this amazing picture of Michigan in my head and the visit kind of killed it"

Sorry but this qualifies as a pretty negative commentary and needs addressing. It is anecdotal at best. You simply have to visit the website to see the list of professionals in the Michigan admissions office. To suggest they don't exist or that it is staffed by students is silly, incorrect, and insulting. No need to denigrate the number 8 school cause you think the number 6 school is so much better. Why is this not simple prestige whoring?

Lol of course it's anecdotal! It's one person's limited experience! Please see bolded above. Before visiting I was set on Mich (even though it's preftige was only 11 at the time) but I couldn't see myself there the way I could at Penn. After disliking the visit and finding out LRAP would be pointless there, and going back over all the placement stats, I chose Penn. I really don't understand the angry responses to an admittedly anecdotal experience

[slizerd]

The worrying part of this thread is Michigans opaque financial aid repayment plan which won't help OP at all with $60,000 of debt. None of that is clear from the presentation posted on the website but that is from 2011.

+1

[krads153]

The worrying part of this thread is Michigans opaque financial aid repayment plan which won't help OP at all with $60,000 of debt. None of that is clear from the presentation posted on the website but that is from 2011.

+1

That's weird, you should ask the financial aid officer why their powerpoint slide (see slide #13) uses $60k debt amount as an example of LRAP forgiveness (I would just email the link). This powerpoint implies that $60k debt is eligible for LRAP forgiveness.

Also based on the equation, it looks like you won't even know if you're eligible until you have your income so I'm not sure how they made that determination without all of the factors required.

https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... MangPP.pdf

[GoogleWasMyIdea]

.

[krads153]

Oh my God...Philly is not a shithole. Most particularly, the part of Philly you're going to be in is not a shithole at all. I am always curious to know how much Philly exposure these Philly haters have. If you've been there once or God forbid you're basing your opinion on what Will Smith said about the place 25 years ago (and he was just talking about one part of Philly). Let me tell you how it really is:

1. Philly is not New York. Philly lost that battle 200 years ago and has never recovered. It's part of the fabric of the city, and the first thing I promise you any New Yorker will do upon arriving in Philly is point out that Philly is not New York. That's a good thing and a bad thing.
2. Just like any city, your experience will vary depending on where you go. Just as you would not randomly wander to the Bronx if you were at Columbia, you sure as hell better not wander past 48th street or anywhere near North Philly if you're at Penn. That would be a bad idea. If you can manage to stay in the area roughly bounded by 48th street to the west, Baltimore Avenue to the south, The Delaware River to the East and Market Street on the north, you will be fine and you'll have all the city trappings you could want. You can even get a little bolder and wander up around Fairmount and Kelly Drive (that's your Art Museum/Franklin Institute kind of area) and all those wonderful spots.
3. It is highly unlikely you're sticking around Philly after school anyway, so it's not like you're marrying the place. It will provide you everything you need while you're in law school and then you can skedaddle to a city that whysoserious finds more acceptable.

To be fair to the posters shitting on Philly, I've lived pretty much everywhere except the South (am a West Coaster originally) and Philly is kind of a shithole compared to like 90+% of cities in the US.....it's one thing to troll for Penn, it's another thing to troll for Philly....the only people who would do that grew up there imo

[GoogleWasMyIdea]

.

[fliptrip]

To be fair to the posters shitting on Philly, I've lived pretty much everywhere except the South (am a West Coaster originally) and Philly is kind of a shithole compared to like 90+% of cities in the US.....it's one thing to troll for Penn, it's another thing to troll for Philly....the only people who would do that grew up there imo have actually spent enough time there to offer a detailed and balanced opinion.

FTFY. I grew up in the freaking #1 ranked city to live in the US according to USNews new city rankings (and proud we are of all of them for expanding their rankings into yet another facet of our lives), and I love Philly. But, as I demonstrated, I actually know something about Philly. Philly's very easy to dismiss as a shithole if your only knowledge of it is from Rocky, passing through on Amtrak, or visiting for a spell.

This is of course a "religious" debate. I and others like it, you and several others don't. Not too much we can take from that. But at least OP can take some specific advice about how Philly can be made enjoyable.

ETA: Let's not fail to point out that the Philly trolls here are joined by egregious Michigan trolls. No one likes their stuff being talked badly about. You even have folks leaping at the chance to defend Dean Z...lol

[krads153]

To be fair to the posters shitting on Philly, I've lived pretty much everywhere except the South (am a West Coaster originally) and Philly is kind of a shithole compared to like 90+% of cities in the US.....it's one thing to troll for Penn, it's another thing to troll for Philly....the only people who would do that grew up there imo have actually spent enough time there to offer a detailed and balanced opinion.

FTFY. I grew up in the freaking #1 ranked city to live in the US according to USNews new city rankings (and proud we are of all of them for expanding their rankings into yet another facet of our lives), and I love Philly. But, as I demonstrated, I actually know something about Philly. Philly's very easy to dismiss as a shithole if your only knowledge of it is from Rocky, passing through on Amtrak, or visiting for a spell.

This is of course a "religious" debate. I and others like it, you and several others don't. Not too much we can take from that. But at least OP can take some specific advice about how Philly can be made enjoyable.

I don't take those USNews rankings seriously - I will say that the cities that are my favorite (e.g, Seattle/Portland/SF pre-influx of outsiders/out of staters who have ruined the state of California) are nothing like Philly...so I guess you understand why I think it's a shithole.

In general, to be fair, I think the East Coast is kind of a shithole, overrated and geographically hideous, with Philly being one of the worst on the East Coast. I think NYC itself is an ugly, overrated city with hideous architecture and no natural beauty......but it has other stuff going for it (albeit at a very high cost).

[landshoes]

I really like Philly. I'm not the biggest fan of college towns/cities like Ann Arbor, but it's obviously a personal taste thing.

[fliptrip]

I don't take those USNews rankings seriously - I will say that the cities that are my favorite (e.g, Seattle/Portland/SF pre-influx of outsiders/out of staters who have ruined the state of California) are nothing like Philly...so I guess you understand why I think it's a shithole.

In general, to be fair, I think the East Coast is kind of a shithole though and overrated......with Philly being one of the worst on the East Coast.

This is fun. Let me get on record:

1. I do not take any USNews city ranking seriously, nor should anyone else.
2. It is beyond an understatement to say that I understand why if your favorite cities are Seattle and Portland, you will find a city like Philly to be sort of like a surrealistic nightmare of human existence.

Since I puffed my chest out about being balanced, here's some not too nice truth for you OP:

1. Philly is dirty. You will encounter trash on the street and smells and all kinds of stuff.
2. Philly's public transit sucks. You can't get a ton of places on the subway and you'll never have time to master the regional rail system.
3. Philly is fairly provincial. Most people in Philly are from Philly.
4. Parts of Philly are dangerous for real. Like I said, don't go to North Philly.
5. Philly's infrastructure sucks ass. Streets are too narrow and you have more than a passing wonder about how some of the bridges stay standing.
6. East coast people aren't "nice". I really struggled with this until I just accepted that they aren't nice. They don't mean anything by it, but it's definitely noticeable if you come from a more polite culture.
7. Philly doesn't have great food, if you're not into the whole artery clogging thing. Remember, the area's signature foods are soft pretzels and steak sandwiches.

[landshoes]

To be fair to the posters shitting on Philly, I've lived pretty much everywhere except the South (am a West Coaster originally) and Philly is kind of a shithole compared to like 90+% of cities in the US.....it's one thing to troll for Penn, it's another thing to troll for Philly....the only people who would do that grew up there imo have actually spent enough time there to offer a detailed and balanced opinion.

FTFY. I grew up in the freaking #1 ranked city to live in the US according to USNews new city rankings (and proud we are of all of them for expanding their rankings into yet another facet of our lives), and I love Philly. But, as I demonstrated, I actually know something about Philly. Philly's very easy to dismiss as a shithole if your only knowledge of it is from Rocky, passing through on Amtrak, or visiting for a spell.

This is of course a "religious" debate. I and others like it, you and several others don't. Not too much we can take from that. But at least OP can take some specific advice about how Philly can be made enjoyable.

I don't take those USNews rankings seriously - I will say that the cities that are my favorite (e.g, Seattle/Portland/SF pre-influx of outsiders/out of staters who have ruined the state of California) are nothing like Philly...so I guess you understand why I think it's a shithole.

In general, to be fair, I think the East Coast is kind of a shithole, overrated and geographically hideous, with Philly being one of the worst on the East Coast. I think NYC itself is an ugly, overrated city with hideous architecture and no natural beauty......but it has other stuff going for it (albeit at a very high cost).

NYC is a bit homely. I wouldn't call it overrated, though. I find most other American cities are basically non-functional as cities (SF being one of the worst offenders).

[James.K.Polk]

I don't take those USNews rankings seriously - I will say that the cities that are my favorite (e.g, Seattle/Portland/SF pre-influx of outsiders/out of staters who have ruined the state of California) are nothing like Philly...so I guess you understand why I think it's a shithole.

In general, to be fair, I think the East Coast is kind of a shithole though and overrated......with Philly being one of the worst on the East Coast.

This is fun. Let me get on record:

1. I do not take any USNews city ranking seriously, nor should anyone else.
2. It is beyond an understatement to say that I understand why if your favorite cities are Seattle and Portland, you will find a city like Philly to be sort of like a surrealistic nightmare of human existence.

Since I puffed my chest out about being balanced, here's some not too nice truth for you OP:

1. Philly is dirty. You will encounter trash on the street and smells and all kinds of stuff.
2. Philly's public transit sucks. You can't get a ton of places on the subway and you'll never have time to master the regional rail system.
3. Philly is fairly provincial. Most people in Philly are from Philly.
4. Parts of Philly are dangerous for real. Like I said, don't go to North Philly.
5. Philly's infrastructure sucks ass. Streets are too narrow and you have more than a passing wonder about how some of the bridges stay standing.
6. East coast people aren't "nice". I really struggled with this until I just accepted that they aren't nice. They don't mean anything by it, but it's definitely noticeable if you come from a more polite culture.
7. Philly doesn't have great food, if you're not into the whole artery clogging thing. Remember, the area's signature foods are soft pretzels and steak sandwiches.

I'm also considering Michigan vs. Penn, and am yet to visit Philly, so I can't speak to this in particular.

I will chime in to say I've lived in two of the "worst" (by crime/income/"governing," basically any metric) cities in the country in Baltimore and St. Louis. And I've enjoyed both of them. Do they have shitty parts? Of course they do. Baltimore has an entire side ("west") that I have not, and will not go to. But I ran over 8000 miles in St. Louis and saw some really, really amazing places. Same with Baltimore - the history here is amazing, and some of the architecture and communities are fantastic.

All I mean to say is - yes, Philly probably sucks in many places. But it also likely has fantastic history and culture, and you shouldn't write it off - especially not over 3 years - just because of bad press.

[fliptrip]

I'm also considering Michigan vs. Penn, and am yet to visit Philly, so I can't speak to this in particular.

I will chime in to say I've lived in two of the "worst" (by crime/income/"governing," basically any metric) cities in the country in Baltimore and St. Louis. And I've enjoyed both of them. Do they have shitty parts? Of course they do. Baltimore has an entire side ("west") that I have not, and will not go to. But I ran over 8000 miles in St. Louis and saw some really, really amazing places. Same with Baltimore - the history here is amazing, and some of the architecture and communities are fantastic.

All I mean to say is - yes, Philly probably sucks in many places. But it also likely has fantastic history and culture, and you shouldn't write it off - especially not over 3 years - just because of bad press.

If you liked Baltimore, you'll love Philly. They are very similar places, except Philly has more of everything that makes Baltimore good. Food's better in Baltimore imo, however. You already know how to stay the hell away from where you need to stay the hell away from, so you'll be just fine at the U. of PA.

[slizerd]

I'm also considering Michigan vs. Penn, and am yet to visit Philly, so I can't speak to this in particular.

I will chime in to say I've lived in two of the "worst" (by crime/income/"governing," basically any metric) cities in the country in Baltimore and St. Louis. And I've enjoyed both of them. Do they have shitty parts? Of course they do. Baltimore has an entire side ("west") that I have not, and will not go to. But I ran over 8000 miles in St. Louis and saw some really, really amazing places. Same with Baltimore - the history here is amazing, and some of the architecture and communities are fantastic.

All I mean to say is - yes, Philly probably sucks in many places. But it also likely has fantastic history and culture, and you shouldn't write it off - especially not over 3 years - just because of bad press.

I 100% agree with this viewpoint. The city I live in now is the absolute worst place I've ever been, but I've still had a lot of fun experiences over the 2 years I've been here. And I love my hometown despite its markedly bad parts (and its even worse sports teams )

Now that I've decided on Penn, I feel like I should convince you to come here too bc you're awesome and it would still be cool to be neighbors!

[slizerd]

This is fun. Let me get on record:

1. I do not take any USNews city ranking seriously, nor should anyone else.
2. It is beyond an understatement to say that I understand why if your favorite cities are Seattle and Portland, you will find a city like Philly to be sort of like a surrealistic nightmare of human existence.

Since I puffed my chest out about being balanced, here's some not too nice truth for you OP:

1. Philly is dirty. You will encounter trash on the street and smells and all kinds of stuff.
2. Philly's public transit sucks. You can't get a ton of places on the subway and you'll never have time to master the regional rail system.
3. Philly is fairly provincial. Most people in Philly are from Philly.
4. Parts of Philly are dangerous for real. Like I said, don't go to North Philly.
5. Philly's infrastructure sucks ass. Streets are too narrow and you have more than a passing wonder about how some of the bridges stay standing.
6. East coast people aren't "nice". I really struggled with this until I just accepted that they aren't nice. They don't mean anything by it, but it's definitely noticeable if you come from a more polite culture.
7. Philly doesn't have great food, if you're not into the whole artery clogging thing. Remember, the area's signature foods are soft pretzels and steak sandwiches.

Thanks for this! I really appreciate knowing the bad along with the good. The hardest part will likely be letting go of the insane niceness of Midwest people that I've grown up with

[fliptrip]

Now that I've decided on Penn, I feel like I should convince you to come here too bc you're awesome and it would still be cool to be neighbors!

I'll second that! JKP is awesome and you definitely should go to Penn. And the real James K. Polk is probably the best president who isn't commonly regarded as such, so that's a bonus!

(as long as the price is right and you have biglaw goals...lol)