There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls Forum

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JCougar

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:10 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:How does consulting billing work? I never understood it
It's pretty much the same as Biglaw, except for you're doing more purposeful and useful work, but getting paid a bit less. In other words, it's just more efficient from the client's standpoint. Which is why Biglaw is losing business to consulting firms, and why there's no jobs in Biglaw.

Honestly, if you have any sort of analytical background with your BA/BS and/or a year or two of work experience, I highly recommend trying to get into a consulting firm right now. The job market is a lot better and you don't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for law school to get started.

The more and more people I talk to in both the Biglaw and the business consulting industry, the more I'm led to believe that Biglaw's future is fairly bleak, unless there is massive reform.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by jingosaur » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:21 pm

JCougar wrote:
withoutapaddle wrote:How does consulting billing work? I never understood it
It's pretty much the same as Biglaw, except for you're doing more purposeful and useful work, but getting paid a bit less. In other words, it's just more efficient from the client's standpoint. Which is why Biglaw is losing business to consulting firms, and why there's no jobs in Biglaw.

Honestly, if you have any sort of analytical background with your BA/BS and/or a year or two of work experience, I highly recommend trying to get into a consulting firm right now. The job market is a lot better and you don't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for law school to get started.

The more and more people I talk to in both the Biglaw and the business consulting industry, the more I'm led to believe that Biglaw's future is fairly bleak, unless there is massive reform.
LOL at the bolded. SOME strategy and systems implementation work is actually pretty interesting, but most consulting work is total BS. I once spent three months testing a software enhancement that allowed for 3 levels of approval for a document rather than 2 levels of approval. That being said, I think that going into consulting out of UG is a much better outcome that going to a law school that isn't a T14, or paying for a back-end T14 at sticker just because it pays a living wage and if you get on some good projects, you can develop some pretty useful skills while getting a salary.

Also, larger consulting firms have similar problems to BigLaw firms in terms of being to expensive for smaller clients. The consulting group that I work in now is supposed to work with Private Equity firms and Hedge Funds, but there are only like 1 or 2 firms out there who have the operating budget to use us on a regular basis so we just end up working at Bulge Bracket banks.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:21 pm

I currently work in global securities as an analyst at Merrill Lynch. I'm trying to decide if I should go the consulting or Investment banking associate path.

I like the idea of traveling that consultants get to do.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by jingosaur » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:34 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:I currently work in global securities as an analyst at Merrill Lynch. I'm trying to decide if I should go the consulting or Investment banking associate path.
For Consulting vs. IB, it's really a money vs. hours debate that never ends. Personally, I think the best combination of money/hours for an entry level professional job is front office commercial banking. You're still in the front office at a bank so you make nice money (but obviously not as good at IB money) but people generally work only 50 hours a week and still get pretty solid bonuses. Job security is better than IB and if you get promoted after 3 years, you can make up around $150k including bonus with similar hours.

Whatever you do, don't work in the back office if you're a success striver. The back office is where careers go to die.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:36 pm

jingosaur wrote:
JCougar wrote:
withoutapaddle wrote:How does consulting billing work? I never understood it
It's pretty much the same as Biglaw, except for you're doing more purposeful and useful work, but getting paid a bit less. In other words, it's just more efficient from the client's standpoint. Which is why Biglaw is losing business to consulting firms, and why there's no jobs in Biglaw.

Honestly, if you have any sort of analytical background with your BA/BS and/or a year or two of work experience, I highly recommend trying to get into a consulting firm right now. The job market is a lot better and you don't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for law school to get started.

The more and more people I talk to in both the Biglaw and the business consulting industry, the more I'm led to believe that Biglaw's future is fairly bleak, unless there is massive reform.
LOL at the bolded. SOME strategy and systems implementation work is actually pretty interesting, but most consulting work is total BS. I once spent three months testing a software enhancement that allowed for 3 levels of approval for a document rather than 2 levels of approval. That being said, I think that going into consulting out of UG is a much better outcome that going to a law school that isn't a T14, or paying for a back-end T14 at sticker just because it pays a living wage and if you get on some good projects, you can develop some pretty useful skills while getting a salary.

Also, larger consulting firms have similar problems to BigLaw firms in terms of being to expensive for smaller clients. The consulting group that I work in now is supposed to work with Private Equity firms and Hedge Funds, but there are only like 1 or 2 firms out there who have the operating budget to use us on a regular basis so we just end up working at Bulge Bracket banks.
I won't argue that a good percentage of consulting is total bullshit. It's just that in Biglaw (or any law job, for that matter), that number is even higher.

I don't work in Biglaw, but I've litigated against Biglaw, and I have quite a few friends in Biglaw. Your average legal case is going to take about 10 years, and have dozens and dozens of completely useless and time-consuming motions to oppose and support various discovery requests, interrogatories, motions for a change of venue, jurisdictional battles, etc. And then more responses to those motions to oppose, and then more replies to those responses to the motions to oppose. And then interlocutory appeals on these issues once the judge finally decides, and then appeals of those appeals. This can all be fun if you have the right mind for it, but when you take a step back and look at what you accomplished, the bottom line is that you've done nothing but generate three file drawers worth of paperwork that is preventing a problem from being resolved rather than producing anything of economic value to society. And yet there you are collecting a paycheck (if you're lucky).

And of course, if you're in Biglaw, you probably won't even get as much of this work...your day will be interspersed with document review, superfluously sitting in on conference calls that you barely know anything about, and re-editing memos and documents--all for the purpose of billing hours.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ManoftheHour » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:39 pm

JCougar wrote:Your average legal case is going to take about 10 years, and have dozens and dozens of completely useless and time-consuming motions to oppose and support various discovery requests, interrogatories, motions for a change of venue, jurisdictional battles, etc. And then more responses to those motions to oppose, and then more replies to those responses to the motions to oppose. And then interlocutory appeals on these issues once the judge finally decides, and then appeals of those appeals. This can all be fun if you have the right mind for it, but when you take a step back and look at what you accomplished, the bottom line is that you've done nothing but generate three file drawers worth of paperwork that is preventing a problem from being resolved rather than producing anything of economic value to society. And yet there you are collecting a paycheck (if you're lucky).

And of course, if you're in Biglaw, you probably won't even get as much of this work...your day will be interspersed with document review, superfluously sitting in on conference calls that you barely know anything about, and re-editing memos and documents--all for the purpose of billing hours.
JFC, this sounds awful as f@#$. Yet despite the warnings, so many 0Ls still want to do this.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:45 pm

ManoftheHour wrote: JFC, this sounds awful as f@#$. Yet despite the warnings, so many 0Ls still want to do this.
The general consensus, even among Biglaw partners, is that government work is better training and more meaningful work than working at their Biglaw firm, despite the fact that Biglaw pays 2-3 times as much.

If that makes any economic sense to you, than you're a lot smarter than I am and you're seeing something I'm missing.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by rahulg91 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:49 pm

lol @ all of you

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by anyriotgirl » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:57 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
JCougar wrote:Your average legal case is going to take about 10 years, and have dozens and dozens of completely useless and time-consuming motions to oppose and support various discovery requests, interrogatories, motions for a change of venue, jurisdictional battles, etc. And then more responses to those motions to oppose, and then more replies to those responses to the motions to oppose. And then interlocutory appeals on these issues once the judge finally decides, and then appeals of those appeals. This can all be fun if you have the right mind for it, but when you take a step back and look at what you accomplished, the bottom line is that you've done nothing but generate three file drawers worth of paperwork that is preventing a problem from being resolved rather than producing anything of economic value to society. And yet there you are collecting a paycheck (if you're lucky).

And of course, if you're in Biglaw, you probably won't even get as much of this work...your day will be interspersed with document review, superfluously sitting in on conference calls that you barely know anything about, and re-editing memos and documents--all for the purpose of billing hours.
JFC, this sounds awful as f@#$. Yet despite the warnings, so many 0Ls still want to do this.
see I think this sounds okay, and a lot better than the work that I might be doing in other careers that are available to me.

I'd rather push paper around then try to get people to spend money on stuff (aka marketing), for example

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ManoftheHour » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:09 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
see I think this sounds okay, and a lot better than the work that I might be doing in other careers that are available to me.

I'd rather push paper around then try to get people to spend money on stuff (aka marketing), for example
I guess the hiring timeline is better too. It's nice to know that you have a job after your 2L summer than having to hustle for 3 years, pass the bar, and hope that the pd/da/gov agency hires you.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by crazycanuck » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:28 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:I currently work in global securities as an analyst at Merrill Lynch. I'm trying to decide if I should go the consulting or Investment banking associate path.

I like the idea of traveling that consultants get to do.
The travelling idea is just shit they spew at recruiting. I spent 3 months in Asia for a client, took about the equivalent of 2 days off the entire time. When you "travel" you will get annihilated with work. The client isn't paying for you to see the sites and experience the local culture. They are paying to get their shit done as fast as possible.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:35 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
see I think this sounds okay, and a lot better than the work that I might be doing in other careers that are available to me.

I'd rather push paper around then try to get people to spend money on stuff (aka marketing), for example
I guess the hiring timeline is better too. It's nice to know that you have a job after your 2L summer than having to hustle for 3 years, pass the bar, and hope that the pd/da/gov agency hires you.
Yeah, I obviously can't blame people for taking what's available. Government hiring was completely fucked when I graduated last year, and it's still pretty fucked. And that's just fedgov. At least the federal budget is getting better...a lot of state and especially municipal budgets are still totally whacked out.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:18 pm

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:21 pm

Would having securities trading experience help get a job in securities law with a big firm?

Or is it irrevelant for law

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:27 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:Would having securities trading experience help get a job in securities law with a big firm?

Or is it irrevelant for law
I know someone that had this kind of experience but really struggled to find a job. His first year grades were below firms' cutoffs, though. He hustled 2L and 3L year and ended up getting his grades up to where law firms would have interviewed him had he had those grades during OCI...but of course, he did so after OCI was over, so that didn't help much.

He eventually prevailed about 9 months after graduation and got Biglaw in a medium-sized city.

Bottom line is that firms throw your resume away if you're below the GPA cutoff no matter what else you've done. Work experience only helps if you're already above their cutoff. Only way to get around this is through a ton of networking perhaps, or just plain getting lucky.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by NYSprague » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:45 pm

JCougar wrote:Just another reason to withdraw:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs ... ?iid=HP_LN
That's even lower than I thought.

"Theres not much reason to pay new lawyers well, given that so many of them are looking for work."

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by spleenworship » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:22 pm

JCougar wrote:Just another reason to withdraw:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs ... ?iid=HP_LN

Lol. I live in the city with the lawyer quoted twice in the article.

She should leave this city. The rural jobs pay just as shitty, but real estate is cheaper.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:16 am

I know someone that had this kind of experience but really struggled to find a job. His first year grades were below firms' cutoffs, though. He hustled 2L and 3L year and ended up getting his grades up to where law firms would have interviewed him had he had those grades during OCI...but of course, he did so after OCI was over, so that didn't help much.
So basically going to law school is a 150K bet that you'll finish in the top 10%-15%.

I'm also looking at business school, but the consensus is don't go unless you get into the Top 10. I have a recommendation from an adcom for Yale School of Mangement, but I don't know if it's worth the 120K of debt

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:10 pm

withoutapaddle wrote:
I know someone that had this kind of experience but really struggled to find a job. His first year grades were below firms' cutoffs, though. He hustled 2L and 3L year and ended up getting his grades up to where law firms would have interviewed him had he had those grades during OCI...but of course, he did so after OCI was over, so that didn't help much.
So basically going to law school is a 150K bet that you'll finish in the top 10%-15%.

I'm also looking at business school, but the consensus is don't go unless you get into the Top 10. I have a recommendation from an adcom for Yale School of Mangement, but I don't know if it's worth the 120K of debt
That's pretty much spot on, although finish in the top X% changes depending on the school. Take whatever percentage of people find jobs through OCI at that given school, and then add on another 5-10% at best that were able to hustle/network/find government jobs after passing the bar.

It really is sort of like going to the casinos at Vegas, only betting with loan money that you just received and will never be able to pay back if you lose. Also, you have far less control over grades than you think. A huge chunk of law exam grades is due to random error, and another huge chunk is due to word count irrespective of content. Humans are notoriously bad at grading essay exams in any sort of valid or reliable fashion.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by ManoftheHour » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:30 pm

withoutapaddle wrote: So basically going to law school is a 150K bet that you'll finish in the top 10%-15%.
Hence this cannot be stressed enough:
JCougar wrote:If you can't go to a top-tier law school for close to $100k in total debt, or you can't get a full scholarship elsewhere, you should seriously consider withdrawing.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by withoutapaddle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:34 pm

^ Makes sense. I'm not really considering law school anymore. I stick around these forums because I like the community, and the brutual honesty it provides.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:35 pm

Also, there's a lot of people who will get agitated with the notion that law grades are mostly random noise and typing speed. Bringing this up on here has created quite a few arguments, where if you finished with good grades, you tend to think law exams are perfect measures of talent and preparation, whereas if you finished with mediocre grades, you tend to think they're BS.

Most of the objective evidence on the subject, however, points to the latter:

http://www.nesl.edu/userfiles/file/lawr ... /crane.PDF
In 1976, the Law School Admission Council published the results of a study by Stephen P. Klein and Frederick M. Hart supporting the idea that factors other than substantive knowledge affect essay grades. One factor that correlated highly with success on law school essay examinations was legible handwriting. Another leading indicator of higher grades was length. Longer answers were viewed by law professors as better.

Law schools have an obligation to use the most accurate and internally consistent, or reliable examination methods. The essay exam is inherently capricious not only because of the number of subjective factors used in scoring that influence the student's overall grade; but also because they compare law students based on too few samples of each student's knowledge of a given domain of material to be reliable or statistically valid.

The traditional law school essay exam is mathematically unsound and unable to consistently measure the law student's proficiencies within the law school's curriculum. This is due to an inability to either accurately sample the same amount of material or to render the same number of samples of a given domain of material as an objective exam can within a comparable time period. Therefore, single-shot essay exams used to measure numerous domains of information within each larger law school subject are notoriously subjective and unreliable. Accordingly, they are also invalid for their intended purpose. This is especially true given the enormous importance placed on the results of law school essay examinations and because those results are used to compare students' performances.

The essay exam format is inherently incapable of affording law students an adequate opportunity to demonstrate proficiency in an entire subject. It is infeasible for the professor to draft an essay exam that is capable of sampling a sufficient quantity of information from various the domains of a complex subject. If the professor were to draft successfully an essay examination that was lengthy enough to contain enough questions for the examination to be considered valid, it would be impossible for the student to actually complete the examination within normal time constraints; and various physical and psychological phenomenon would hinder the students ability to perform well during the course of completing such an arduous task. Critics of essay examinations doubt that their unreliability can be lowered to a level that makes them valid.
Like I've said before, since this study was done, SoftTest has eliminated the handwriting problem, but the fact that exams are now done on computers just mean that typing speed has taken its place.

If you look at page 850 on this Google Book link, you'll see more details about what this study found:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XQgrjw ... dy&f=false

Law exam essay grades are best predicted by a combination of a) word count and b) a layman's impression of correctness (in this case, two English majors who never went to law school and had no knowledge of the law were the "laymen"). So basically, if you can write a lot of words and impress an English major, you're in good shape, whether you know the law or not. Both these factors combined predicted about 50% of the grading variance (r = .70). That's a huge number. And, as the authors note, its artificially low, because they only had two English majors give ratings, which depressed inter-rater reliability, which in turn artificially depressed that variable's validity measure.

Basically, if you had a bigger group of English majors give ratings, you could predict nearly 60% of a law exam's grade based only on those ratings alone and word count. And none of those factors have anything to do with knowing and applying the law, since the English majors never took a single law class in their life. And knowing/applying the law is what law exams are supposedly measuring.

The study does note that LSAT predicts something like 16 additional percentage points of variance, but at most schools where the top 51% of the class is jammed into an LSAT range of about 2-3 points, this measure of intelligence probably loses a lot of its predictive power.

Overall, we're talking about not much more than one third of your law exam grade is actually knowing and applying the law--at best. The rest is word count and writing ability. If you can crank out 7-8K words in three hours, and it's at least superficially good writing, you're probably in good shape.

Thus are the risks of this law school gamble--and that's exactly why effort and intelligence, no matter how high, are no guarantees that you will succeed.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by JCougar » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:45 pm

And in case anyone needs more evidence that people lack the ability to give meaningful grades to essay exams, consider this guy's research on the essay portion of the SAT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT
In March 2004, Les Perelman analyzed 15 scored sample essays contained in the College Board's ScoreWrite book along with 30 other training samples and found that in over 90% of cases, the essay's score could be predicted from simply counting the number of words in the essay. Two years later, Perelman trained high school seniors to write essays that made little sense but contained infrequently used words such as "plethora" and "myriad". All of the students received scores of "10" or better, which placed the essays in the 92nd percentile or higher.
Professors and "experts" are just not as smart as they think they are when it comes to grading essays. It's mostly just random opinion, and if you're mentally trying to justify the law school gamble based on the notion that you, of all people, will be able to beat the system through hard work and ability, you're making a huge error in judgement.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by Tanicius » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:05 pm

JCougar wrote:And in case anyone needs more evidence that people lack the ability to give meaningful grades to essay exams, consider this guy's research on the essay portion of the SAT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT
In March 2004, Les Perelman analyzed 15 scored sample essays contained in the College Board's ScoreWrite book along with 30 other training samples and found that in over 90% of cases, the essay's score could be predicted from simply counting the number of words in the essay. Two years later, Perelman trained high school seniors to write essays that made little sense but contained infrequently used words such as "plethora" and "myriad". All of the students received scores of "10" or better, which placed the essays in the 92nd percentile or higher.
Professors and "experts" are just not as smart as they think they are when it comes to grading essays. It's mostly just random opinion, and if you're mentally trying to justify the law school gamble based on the notion that you, of all people, will be able to beat the system through hard work and ability, you're making a huge error in judgement.

I do think there's an element of structure and succinctness that goes into law school exams not comparable to SAT grading. The SAT has proven a notoriously unreliable graded essay, due specifically to the fact that high-level vocabulary and length are parts of the rubric. Not really the same case with law school essays.

I agree that law school essays are largely crap, but I also think they do demonstrate knowledge of the law in at least degrees of "impressive," "proficient," and "lacks familiarity with topic." I never got better than a P in any essay exam class I took in law school, and it was most likely out of a combination of (1) never practicing essays, which was caused by my (2) not getting the material down until the day before the exam. The most amount of time I ever spent with a topic after 1L would have been a week of lazily looking over outlines prepared by other people, after not ever paying attention in class. I would write long-ass answers, particularly in 1L when I busted ass on a few classes, and I never got rewarded for it. This was possibly from my inability to find out how the professor wanted the essay to be structured. Is that a reflection of my intelligence or legal knowledge? Maybe so, maybe not. I do certainly think it was a reflection of my priorities and work ethic (I'd spend weeks writing papers, and I was a perfectionist in skills courses, whereas the grades in my essay exam classes accurately reflected the fact that I didn't GAF about them). Firm employers who saw my grades after 1L probably correctly realized that I was not cut out for their type of work.

So, to summarize. Is it sensible to split hairs and determine an A paper from an A-, or a B+ from an B-? No. Most professors themselves are willing to admit they could not actually spot a significant difference, if any difference, between a B+ and a B- kind of essay. But there is definitely a difference in intelligible, well-thought out answers that get As and answers that get low C's or D's. More importantly, your aggregate grades probably do reflect at least some kind of effective work ethic and familiarity with the material. The people in my class who got top 10% are undoubtedly smarter and/or much harder working than I am, and I don't have a problem with the fact that they are rewarded for that in their job prospects. The real problem is how someone slightly below median is treated like a pariah -- that's total bogus.

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Re: There's still time to withdraw, 0Ls

Post by twenty » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:34 pm

Law as a profession, and to a greater extent law school itself, seems quite a bit like one great (and prestigious) penis measuring competition.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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