The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[JusticeHarlan]

Question for the 0Ls here:

Is there anything, anything, that would convince you that you don't want biglaw? Is there any statistic, any anecdote, any article, anything whatsoever? Anything about hours, work/life balance, the nature of the work, the attrition, anything?

It seems that a 0L can just respond to any criticism with "yeah, but (a) $160k, (b) exit options to what I actually want to do, (c) other jobs suck and it's not like I can get anything else these days and/or (d) you must be weak/lazy if you're complaining about it."

Seriously, is there anything you could hear that would overcome that argument? Honestly curious. When I was a 0L that was probably my line of thinking as well. As a first year associate, I don't hate this job (most days) but I do wish I had paid more attention to what I was getting myself into, and it gets to easy to deflect criticism of your goal and not go in with eyes fully open when you've got yourself so convinced that your argument is ironclad.

[rad lulz]

I'm interested in how many practicing attorneys who advise 0Ls away from law school would have been persuaded by their own words before they themselves enrolled. Something tells me not many.

When I decided to go to law school (decided 2009, enrolled early 2010)

We didn't have LST and the stats we have today

The assumption/conventional wisdom was that going to my school you'd at least get a solid job, even if not biglaw

The advent of LST, after I was in law school, showed this to be false

I'd probably take my own advice and retake if I were to go now

I wish is retaken back then

I like being a lawyer but I really don't like sending over a quarter of my after tax to fed loan servicing

[FuriousDuck]

...

[bjsesq]

It's been a while, so srs question: don't YHS grant aid packages based on need? Or at least one or two of them?

[FuriousDuck]

...

[Tiago Splitter]

Please, no one quote that last paragraph. I'm not a douchebag; I swear. I would like to hear some constructive responses.

You may not be a douchebag but that's a really douchey reason to choose HYS over no tuition elsewhere in the T-14. The shine will wear off very quickly.

I agree with you about reasonable man's argument; no one is telling anyone to go to St. John's ever. And it's a flame that there was no way to know that it was a bad idea to pay 150k for law school prior to 2008.

It's been a while, so srs question: don't YHS grant aid packages based on need? Or at least one or two of them?

Yes but plenty of people end up with 200k in debt. They might have enough money from family sources to help them if they struggle, but usually the grad will be the one making all the payments.

[buffalo_]

I think part of the problem is that most of the people resident council advises to avoid law school are not on this board, or are on different threads in this board. I come here, I read what the graduates have to say, I read other horror stories about BigLaw on TLS, and I still know law school is the right decision for me.

And it is precisely because I read these threads that I know this. Maybe I am crazy. I have many friends in law school. I visit them, they are doing work, and I find everything they're doing fascinating (even blue-booking). I am admitted to two top-6 schools (still deciding), and even without significant scholarship, I should be able to pay off the debt. I will have an excellent chance at BigLaw and clerkships and interesting PI work. Either through LRAP or over a 10-year payment plan. I have no delusions of paying off the debt in 3 years. A 10 or 15 year plan is completely manageable, even after lateraling into a low 6-figure job after the "burn out" that I am assured I will experience by all and only people who have themselves burned out. I am not a K-JD. I have lived completely self-sufficiently in the "real world" and I know what the daily grind is like, and it's fine. I don't envision buying a house and living in the 'burbs, there is no other place to buy anything in the market I want to work in. I am fine with renting long term. I have no plans and little desire for children in the next 10-12 years of my life.

I think some of the buyer's remorse felt by recent grads on these boards is well-meaning, but the advice does not apply to everyone on here. So 0Ls who feel that they are making the right decision need to read these posts and listen to the LS grads about reality, decide if you can live with that, and then ignore them when they get into that "HYS or CCN full scholly or retake or don't go" groupthink. And graduates, you should continue to warn eager-eyed 0Ls, and not get upset when they ignore your advice. You did the best you could, once they've decided to go there's no convincing them otherwise. You can either find a new thread to warn people on, or focus on helping people who do decide to go by telling them what they can do to learn from your mistakes.



TL;DR: Err'one needs to chill.

[rad lulz]

,

[FuriousDuck]

...

[Tiago Splitter]

I've heard comments about sticker debt "ruining" one's "financial future." If I heard some specifics about how my financial future might possibly be "ruined" as a YS grad, I'd consider turning down Yale/Stanford if given the opportunity. I don't believe (d) to be true, and I think much of TLS agrees with me on that, even the 0Ls. Give us some credit on that one.

This would be a reason to choose Yale or Stanford in the abstract if you had no other options. But people with the numbers for Yale and Stanford can get in elsewhere for very little cost and often end up working the same job either way.

Unfortunately, it's going to take us many years to get over the way people used to think on this site:

The gap in prestige between Harvard and Columbia yawns like a chasm. Strictly money wise, Hamilton at Columbia is the right answer, but don't underestimate the intangible career benefits of having such a widely-recognized and respected school as Harvard on you resume.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&start=85

[buffalo_]

I think part of the problem is that most of the people resident council advises to avoid law school are not on this board, or are on different threads in this board. I come here, I read what the graduates have to say, I read other horror stories about BigLaw on TLS, and I still know law school is the right decision for me.

And it is precisely because I read these threads that I know this. Maybe I am crazy. I have many friends in law school. I visit them, they are doing work, and I find everything they're doing fascinating (even blue-booking). I am admitted to two top-6 schools (still deciding), and even without significant scholarship, I should be able to pay off the debt. I will have an excellent chance at BigLaw and clerkships and interesting PI work. Either through LRAP or over a 10-year payment plan. I have no delusions of paying off the debt in 3 years. A 10 or 15 year plan is completely manageable, even after lateraling into a low 6-figure job after the "burn out" that I am assured I will experience by all and only people who have themselves burned out. I am not a K-JD. I have lived completely self-sufficiently in the "real world" and I know what the daily grind is like, and it's fine. I don't envision buying a house and living in the 'burbs, there is no other place to buy anything in the market I want to work in. I am fine with renting long term. I have no plans and little desire for children in the next 10-12 years of my life.

I think some of the buyer's remorse felt by recent grads on these boards is well-meaning, but the advice does not apply to everyone on here. So 0Ls who feel that they are making the right decision need to read these posts and listen to the LS grads about reality, decide if you can live with that, and then ignore them when they get into that "HYS or CCN full scholly or retake or don't go" groupthink. And graduates, you should continue to warn eager-eyed 0Ls, and not get upset when they ignore your advice. You did the best you could, once they've decided to go there's no convincing them otherwise. You can either find a new thread to warn people on, or focus on helping people who do decide to go by telling them what they can do to learn from your mistakes.



TL;DR: Err'one needs to chill.

A ton of people resident counsel advises not to go are on this bort

Do you read choosing a law school forum

I should have specified "ITT" not "on this board." I think each thread can only go so far. And this thread specifically is a meta-thread. It's a joke on another thread. And that thread, is also a meta-thread, a joke on TLS. Most of the people who care enough to worked up about this in-fighting are well informed already.

I think there are more people on the board (and others like the "what are my chances" and "Law School FAQ") but in different threads that are more in need of advice.

[Gucci Mane]

TLS conventional wisdom is already starting to turn against CCN at sticker, but the prestige of HYS still holds an irresistible allure to middle-class kids who spent their early adulthood staring down a life of mediocrity before they realized they could score in the 99th percentile on the LSAT. Of course, no one wants to admit to being a douchey "prestige-whore," so everyone justifies their decisions based on some bogus cost/benefit analysis or a "desire to clerk," or what have you, but that's all a smokescreen (I suspect) in most cases. Not many people who don't have abnormally appealing alternatives are going to be convinced to turn down HYS by a financial prospectus or biglaw horror stories.

I have to say I've noticed this quite a bit since I started visiting this discussion board. Especially in those H vs t14 full ride threads, where nearly everyone is advising OP to choose the full ride, but OP ends up choosing H because he "really liked the atmosphere at ASW" or some vague statement about giving him more options after graduation.

[rayiner]

[I'm a prestige whore]

If you're one of those people who can actually eat prestige, you might actually enjoy big law. You might actually enjoy grinding away at Cravath, because they serve every meal in the firm cafeteria with a side of prestige. At the same time, thought, it'll wear away at your intestines. You'll realize that, at least in New York, you're pretty far down on the prestige totem poll. You're just an attorney. You're not an investment banker, trader, or hedge fund/private equity associate. You'll be working on a deal with some Wharton grad barking instructions at you, and the prestige you had for lunch will start to sit heavily in your stomach. Then after seven years of grinding way you'll be passed over for partner and exit to some in-house job at a bulge bracket making about as much as a second year associate on the banking side, and that prestige will sit crusted up in your colon giving you a serious case of constipation.

I'm not trying to denigrate these jobs. In house at a bank making $300k is a great exit for a lawyer, and lots of people are very happy in that sort of job. But if you went to law school not because you wanted to be a lawyer, but because you wanted to chase prestige, well you're gonna have a bad time.

[dwil770]

Question for the 0Ls here:

Is there anything, anything, that would convince you that you don't want biglaw? Is there any statistic, any anecdote, any article, anything whatsoever? Anything about hours, work/life balance, the nature of the work, the attrition, anything?

It seems that a 0L can just respond to any criticism with "yeah, but (a) $160k, (b) exit options to what I actually want to do, (c) other jobs suck and it's not like I can get anything else these days and/or (d) you must be weak/lazy if you're complaining about it."

Seriously, is there anything you could hear that would overcome that argument? Honestly curious. When I was a 0L that was probably my line of thinking as well. As a first year associate, I don't hate this job (most days) but I do wish I had paid more attention to what I was getting myself into, and it gets to easy to deflect criticism of your goal and not go in with eyes fully open when you've got yourself so convinced that your argument is ironclad.

Yes if someone in big law had previously worked a deadend miserable job where they worked 50-60hrs a week for 40-50k with no real prospects yet STILL thought that his big law job was worse I would listen.

Not at all interested in listening to K-JDs discover that life blows

edit: or a guy who gave up legit prospects, I think that is when it becomes tricky

[rayiner]

Question for the 0Ls here:

Is there anything, anything, that would convince you that you don't want biglaw? Is there any statistic, any anecdote, any article, anything whatsoever? Anything about hours, work/life balance, the nature of the work, the attrition, anything?

It seems that a 0L can just respond to any criticism with "yeah, but (a) $160k, (b) exit options to what I actually want to do, (c) other jobs suck and it's not like I can get anything else these days and/or (d) you must be weak/lazy if you're complaining about it."

Seriously, is there anything you could hear that would overcome that argument? Honestly curious. When I was a 0L that was probably my line of thinking as well. As a first year associate, I don't hate this job (most days) but I do wish I had paid more attention to what I was getting myself into, and it gets to easy to deflect criticism of your goal and not go in with eyes fully open when you've got yourself so convinced that your argument is ironclad.

Yes if someone in big law had previously worked a deadend miserable job where they worked 50-60hrs a week for 40-50k with no real prospects yet STILL thought that his big law job was worse I would listen.

Not at all interested in listening to K-JDs discover that life blows

edit: or a guy who gave up legit prospects, I think that is when it becomes tricky

I believe that fewer of the practicing lawyers ITT are K-JD's than you think.

[FuriousDuck]

...

[linkx13]

I think part of the problem is that most of the people resident council advises to avoid law school are not on this board, or are on different threads in this board. I come here, I read what the graduates have to say, I read other horror stories about BigLaw on TLS, and I still know law school is the right decision for me.

And it is precisely because I read these threads that I know this. Maybe I am crazy. I have many friends in law school. I visit them, they are doing work, and I find everything they're doing fascinating (even blue-booking). I am admitted to two top-6 schools (still deciding), and even without significant scholarship, I should be able to pay off the debt. I will have an excellent chance at BigLaw and clerkships and interesting PI work. Either through LRAP or over a 10-year payment plan. I have no delusions of paying off the debt in 3 years. A 10 or 15 year plan is completely manageable, even after lateraling into a low 6-figure job after the "burn out" that I am assured I will experience by all and only people who have themselves burned out. I am not a K-JD. I have lived completely self-sufficiently in the "real world" and I know what the daily grind is like, and it's fine. I don't envision buying a house and living in the 'burbs, there is no other place to buy anything in the market I want to work in. I am fine with renting long term. I have no plans and little desire for children in the next 10-12 years of my life.

I think some of the buyer's remorse felt by recent grads on these boards is well-meaning, but the advice does not apply to everyone on here. So 0Ls who feel that they are making the right decision need to read these posts and listen to the LS grads about reality, decide if you can live with that, and then ignore them when they get into that "HYS or CCN full scholly or retake or don't go" groupthink. And graduates, you should continue to warn eager-eyed 0Ls, and not get upset when they ignore your advice. You did the best you could, once they've decided to go there's no convincing them otherwise. You can either find a new thread to warn people on, or focus on helping people who do decide to go by telling them what they can do to learn from your mistakes.



TL;DR: Err'one needs to chill.

Good post. Ty

[rayiner]

Re: high-achieving family. It's a more common problem than you think, and I know several people who are in similar situations. Heck, my brother is HYP -> GS/MS/JPM, and his girlfriend is HYP -> GS/MS/JPM -> HSW. It was definitely a chip on my shoulder that helped me gun in law school. But you really don't want to go too far down that road. It's an absolutely toxic way to live life, and a lousy reason to pick a particular career.

[nothingtosee]

I often hear, "I'm picking HYS because it just opens so many doors."

Are there any "doors" for which y'all practicing think this is true?

[FuriousDuck]

...

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Re: high-achieving family. It's a more common problem than you think, and I know several people who are in similar situations. Heck, my brother is HYP -> GS/MS/JPM, and his girlfriend is HYP -> GS/MS/JPM -> HSW. It was definitely a chip on my shoulder that helped me gun in law school. But you really don't want to go too far down that road. It's an absolutely toxic way to live life, and a lousy reason to pick a particular career.

A lot of wisdom in this post, and it's completely true for NYC. I read today that the top 1% of earners in NYC begins with people making approximately ~$800,000 a year, and there are roughly 35,000 people in this category. How many of them are lawyers? Definitely some but not the majority. And as a big law associate you are making 1/5th of what the lowest paid top 1% earner is making. So if the goal is solely $ and prestige that's kind of a tough pill to swallow. A very small percentage of lawyers in NYC will end up in the top 1% (a lot of big law partners do not even make 800k).

[dwil770]

Question for the 0Ls here:

Is there anything, anything, that would convince you that you don't want biglaw? Is there any statistic, any anecdote, any article, anything whatsoever? Anything about hours, work/life balance, the nature of the work, the attrition, anything?

It seems that a 0L can just respond to any criticism with "yeah, but (a) $160k, (b) exit options to what I actually want to do, (c) other jobs suck and it's not like I can get anything else these days and/or (d) you must be weak/lazy if you're complaining about it."

Seriously, is there anything you could hear that would overcome that argument? Honestly curious. When I was a 0L that was probably my line of thinking as well. As a first year associate, I don't hate this job (most days) but I do wish I had paid more attention to what I was getting myself into, and it gets to easy to deflect criticism of your goal and not go in with eyes fully open when you've got yourself so convinced that your argument is ironclad.

Yes if someone in big law had previously worked a deadend miserable job where tldhey worked 50-60hrs a week for 40-50k with no real prospects yet STILL thought that his big law job was worse I would listen.

Not at all interested in listening to K-JDs discover that life blows

edit: or a guy who gave up legit prospects, I think that is when it becomes tricky

I believe that fewer of the practicing lawyers ITT are K-JD's than you think.

At first that's what I thought, but then when they start saying how miserable big law is they just say, "ugh it's just office drudgery, the hours are long, and there isn't good job security.". How naive can you get if that isn't what you expected? It is sad that that is what is considered a good outcome now but that's just how it is.

[bjsesq]

(a lot of big law partners do not even make 800k).

Proles.

[FuriousDuck]

...

[A. Nony Mouse]

At first that's what I thought, but then when they start saying how miserable big law is they just say, "ugh it's just office drudgery, the hours are long, and there isn't good job security.". How naive can you get if that isn't what you expected? It is sad that that is what is considered a good outcome now but that's just how it is.

Have you even read the posts talking about biglaw? That's not what people are complaining about.