The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

[BruceWayne]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

[dresden doll]

TBF, I don't really feel differently.

[Theopliske8711]

I'm a para, and I got yelled at today by one of the senior associates at my firm for accidentally leaving the email address of a different associate in the letterhead of a letter that the senior associate was supposed to sign. The email address is in like 4 font, practically greyed out. Working with lawyers is lovely.

[IAFG]

TBF, I don't really feel differently.

TBF you're not just a special snowflake, you're a special snow woman. Built of snow that fell in July on a Hawaiian beach. By Gloria Steinem. With a nose stuck in by Hillary Clinton.

[IAFG]

I'm a para, and I got yelled at today by one of the senior associates at my firm for accidentally leaving the email address of a different associate in the letterhead of a letter that the senior associate was supposed to sign. The email address is in like 4 font, practically greyed out. Working with lawyers is lovely.

I have made very similar mistakes yet would have been mad at a para about this.

[lecsa]

There are definitely some big law jobs that aren't as bad as my list portrays. In fact, I think my job is one of them. My hours aren't too bad, my coworkers are nice and we get along, no body rides my nuts about tinny shit, and I enjoy the work so far. But it's totally fucking random. The woman 3 doors down works for a psychopath who makes her work 7-7 but she still only bills 1700 hours a year.

This is the worst - being on call all weekend, then only being able to bill a fraction of it. And the stuff you're on call for a toddler could do.

Also being expected to stay in the office until at least 8:30-9 every day. That's another expectation at some firms. Plus, expected to answer emails until 12 am. Also having everything be a fire drill.

[dresden doll]

TBF, I don't really feel differently.

TBF you're not just a special snowflake, you're a special snow woman. Built of snow that fell in July on a Hawaiian beach. By Gloria Steinem. With a nose stuck in by Hillary Clinton.

Well, I did fully expect law school/profession to be kind of miserable. But point taken. I practically share none of the common problems people have with their jobs.

[IAFG]

There are definitely some big law jobs that aren't as bad as my list portrays. In fact, I think my job is one of them. My hours aren't too bad, my coworkers are nice and we get along, no body rides my nuts about tinny shit, and I enjoy the work so far. But it's totally fucking random. The woman 3 doors down works for a psychopath who makes her work 7-7 but she still only bills 1700 hours a year.

This is the worst - being on call all weekend, then only being able to bill a fraction of it. And the stuff you're on call for a toddler could do.

Also being expected to stay in the office until at least 8:30-9 every day. That's another expectation at some firms. Plus, expected to answer emails until 12 am. Also having everything be a fire drill.

You are on call to eat crayons, throw iPads and shit on the carpet?!

[lecsa]

There are definitely some big law jobs that aren't as bad as my list portrays. In fact, I think my job is one of them. My hours aren't too bad, my coworkers are nice and we get along, no body rides my nuts about tinny shit, and I enjoy the work so far. But it's totally fucking random. The woman 3 doors down works for a psychopath who makes her work 7-7 but she still only bills 1700 hours a year.

This is the worst - being on call all weekend, then only being able to bill a fraction of it. And the stuff you're on call for a toddler could do.

Also being expected to stay in the office until at least 8:30-9 every day. That's another expectation at some firms. Plus, expected to answer emails until 12 am. Also having everything be a fire drill.

You are on call to eat crayons, throw iPads and shit on the carpet?!

No, all of those probably require more talent and skill.

Another thing - if you don't answer an email for a project within 15 minutes, they forward it to another person, cc you, and ask the other person "can you handle?" Or email/call you again - "did you get my email?"

[dresden doll]

Another thing - if you don't answer an email for a project within 15 minutes, they forward it to another person, cc you, and ask the other person "can you handle?" Or email you again - "did you get my email?"

That sounds infinitely annoying.

[jlamb555]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

[Mal Reynolds]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

Says the guy who thinks it's possible to pay off 200k in four years in NYC.

[dresden doll]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

Says the guy who thinks it's possible to pay off 200k in four years in NYC.

Does living with the parents figure into this assumption?

[kalvano]

I'm a para, and I got yelled at today by one of the senior associates at my firm for accidentally leaving the email address of a different associate in the letterhead of a letter that the senior associate was supposed to sign. The email address is in like 4 font, practically greyed out. Working with lawyers is lovely.

I wouldn't have yelled, but it's pretty much your job to catch that stuff.

[kaiser]

I'm a para, and I got yelled at today by one of the senior associates at my firm for accidentally leaving the email address of a different associate in the letterhead of a letter that the senior associate was supposed to sign. The email address is in like 4 font, practically greyed out. Working with lawyers is lovely.

I have made very similar mistakes yet would have been mad at a para about this.

Difference between noting the mistake and genuinely getting angry and yelling at someone. Yelling at a para that does this is just wrong, and it isn't a respectful way to treat others. Doesn't matter if they are above you or below you. That being said, of course I would note the issue and try and ensure it doesn't happen again.

[kalvano]

The problem in a lot of firms is that people think yelling fixes problems.

[kaiser]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

Oh please. You think that, once we make that last painful debt payment however many years from now, and are finally free from the debt burden, we will suddenly look back whimsically on our former indebtedness and say "you know what man? it was worth it".

[jlamb555]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

Oh please. You think that, once we make that last painful debt payment however many years from now, and are finally free from the debt burden, we will suddenly look back whimsically on our former indebtedness and say "you know what man? it was worth it".

Everyone has different options. For some, law school is not a good idea. With many others, they may have been working some mid-level office job or retail for life if law school was not in the cards. Those types of jobs have a very low income ceiling and I am sure law school is often worth it from a lifetime earning evaluation for these individuals.

[kaiser]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

Oh please. You think that, once we make that last painful debt payment however many years from now, and are finally free from the debt burden, we will suddenly look back whimsically on our former indebtedness and say "you know what man? it was worth it".

Everyone has different options. For some, law school is not a good idea. With many others, they may have been working some mid-level office job or retail for life if law school was not in the cards. Those types of jobs have a very low income ceiling and I am sure law school is often worth it from a lifetime earning evaluation for these individuals.

I guess my comment was a bit unclear. I didn't mean to imply people regret going to law school itself. I meant that people will regret the nonsensical choices some of us made in choosing schools, taking on debt burdens that we wish we hadn't taken on. The alternative I had in mind wasn't skipping law school entirely, but instead going to a school that puts you in a better debt situation.

[jbagelboy]

FYI for the people bashing the mega posters "negative" mentality. Keep in mind that many of them/us (I haven't posted as much as them but I've been on here just as long as most of them if you factor in my original account) actually had a similar mentality at one point. Now that we've actually experienced law school/legal life we ALL feel differently. That really should tell you all you need to know.

The problem here is that you are all in the very early stages of your career. The perspective may change in 20 years.

What are you, some sort of boomer?

[dixiecupdrinking]

I'd probably still keep this job even if I had no debt but it would feel a lot better if I was banking money instead of bleeding it. That's another thing 0Ls don't consider enough. Even if you like your job fine, even if you can keep it long enough to pay off your debt... it's just a shitload of money slipping through your fingertips, month after month.

[thesealocust]

WORD. Anyways, "the fundamental problem with 0L's" is the douchiest thread title I have seen in a long time, so I just feel like trying to hammer home how douchey this guy must be.

To OP, if you didn't realize this is a douchey thread title, here's one exercise that helps me figure out if a sentence is douchey or not: if the sentence is talking about a group, substitute that group with "black people" and see if you still think it's permissible.

Jokes on you, I've heard him say that exact phrase IRL

Same.

+1

[thejerseykid]

Question for the attorneys ITT who do regret law school. If you didn't go to law school, what would you have done instead?

A classmate with my same major that was not related to sciences went back to school for 2 years and got an engineering degree. That would have been an awesome choice.

Out of curiosity, did this friend go back to get an undergraduate degree in engineering or did he go to graduate school?

I'm in a similar situation in that I have a non-science major and that's left me a bit uncertain as to the alternatives I have to attending law school. Specifically, I'm curious, if I decided to go back to school for a science or engineering degree, as to whether I'd have to go back for another undergraduate degree (in which case, I wonder how much stigma would be attached to going back to undergraduate shortly after graduating and with no real work experience in order to get another degree) or if it would be better to apply directly to graduate school for the science/engineering degree (in which case, I wonder how severe of a disadvantage I would be left with for not having that undergraduate background in the subject area).

[TheSpanishMain]

I'd probably still keep this job even if I had no debt but it would feel a lot better if I was banking money instead of bleeding it. That's another thing 0Ls don't consider enough. Even if you like your job fine, even if you can keep it long enough to pay off your debt... it's just a shitload of money slipping through your fingertips, month after month.

Was wondering about this. For those who are miserable, do you think you would be less miserable if you were debt free but at the same job? So, same horrible hours and douchebag boss, but you at least have the satisfaction of watching your bank account grow and knowing when you leave in a couple of years you'll have a nice nest egg built up.

Also, any consensus on whether the culture is different between NYC/DC/Chicago/LA BigLaw and secondary market Big Law? I'm making two assumptions: first, NYC Big Law firms are fully aware that most people plan on leaving in a couple of years after they pay down their debt. There's no incentive for them not to work you like a rented mule. You're gone in three years regardless, so row and live, galley slave. Second, secondary market firms demand ties because they want some reassurance that you want to be in city X and aren't going to run off to NYC after they invest resources in training you.

If that's the case, are secondary market firms more likely to try not to make their associates miserable, in the hopes of retaining them long term?

[rayiner]

I'd probably still keep this job even if I had no debt but it would feel a lot better if I was banking money instead of bleeding it. That's another thing 0Ls don't consider enough. Even if you like your job fine, even if you can keep it long enough to pay off your debt... it's just a shitload of money slipping through your fingertips, month after month.

Was wondering about this. For those who are miserable, do you think you would be less miserable if you were debt free but at the same job? So, same horrible hours and douchebag boss, but you at least have the satisfaction of watching your bank account grow and knowing when you leave in a couple of years you'll have a nice nest egg built up.

Also, any consensus on whether the culture is different between NYC/DC/Chicago/LA BigLaw and secondary market Big Law? I'm making two assumptions: first, NYC Big Law firms are fully aware that most people plan on leaving in a couple of years after they pay down their debt. There's no incentive for them not to work you like a rented mule. You're gone in three years regardless, so row and live, galley slave. Second, secondary market firms demand ties because they want some reassurance that you want to be in city X and aren't going to run off to NYC after they invest resources in training you.

If that's the case, are secondary market firms more likely to try not to make their associates miserable, in the hopes of retaining them long term?

I wasn't miserable working big law, but paying loans sucked. The pay is the only day to day bright side of the job. The work was punctuated by bright points, but $8k in your bank account each month was regular. But at the beginning of the month you pay half out in loans then half the rest to Manhattan rent, and spend all month watching what's left pretty carefully. That sucks.